How many caches would there be...

[+sbell111]

Well, it's obvious why this argument keeps going round and round. The "we love P&Gs" group doesn't want to hear one word the "we don't like P&Gs" group has to say. I tried to write a post as unbiased as I could, while pointing out that many of us don't like P&Gs. I tried to offer a reasonable solution, but it's apparently unacceptable to the P&G crowd.

The reason that your idea to label P&Gs as such wasn't embraced is because it is not necessary. Basically, any cache with a low terrain and a low difficulty is a P&G. There's no reason to label them as such.

I don't live in the middle of NY City. I don't live in a town with 2000 people in it. I live in a county with lots of wilderness and only 50,000 people. Yes, there are other caches besides LPCs. Many are MILES out in the boonies. Which is fine, when I want to spend the entire afternoon looking for only one or two caches in the woods. But SOMETIMES it would be nice to get to hunt near civilization and be able to do more than one or two in an afternoon. I'm not against pavement, but why do all the "near civilization" caches have to be P&Gs? I mean, really, caches in general are actually nick-named the Tricities Standard or the Bristal Standard up here. Doesn't that tell you something?

It tells me that lots of people like those caches. If you don't like P&G micros, you could easily avoid them. By building two queries, the first having all non-micro caches within 35 miles of you and the second with all micros with a terrain rating over 1.5, you would get rid of nearly all of the P&Gs and still be left with lots of local caches to look for.

Most of the replies to my post were not any help. They missed the point entirely. Mushtang needs to come up here and cache awhile. He'd get bored really quick and understand why people are leaving the game. The old "don't let them bother you" quote is really that - getting old. It DOES bother one when one has gathered the kids up in the car with the hope of exciting hunts (micros are fine, trading not required, just adds to the fun for them) and then winds up pulling up into yet another parking lot and the kids don't even want to get out of the car because it's "another one of those". I mean, if even the 12 year olds are bored, when it was their desperate wish to go geocaching in the first place, then IT"S BORING.

Again, now that you've identified what you don't like, target your PQs to avoid those caches.

 

I don't understand why you believe this response to be 'missing the point' or unhelpful.

As for "walking up to it" being "geocaching", try reading the FAQ page. http://www.geocaching.com/faq/

It definately implies I am going to need a GPS to play this game. Using a map and compass can be done, but personally, I'm not that good, and also, technically, that's called Orienteering. Different game.

Still, the game is about finding a container using coordinates. Whatever tools someone uses to take those coordinates and get to the cache is all good. Just because some people are making the game more difficult than I am doesn't meen that they aren't playing the game.

Mostly, what I saw in the replies to my post were people trying to deny that there could be anyone who doesn't like Park and Grabs just because there's plenty of people playing this game to rack up numbers who do like them.

Actually, I think those posts were in response to arguments that P&Gs are somehow ruining the game.

What I think might be the best answer is instead of hiding the types of caches I like (and still never getting to find any) is I start a new website, where there are NO Park & Grab type caches. That would settle this argument once and for all.

At the end of the day, if you are not having fun and cannot make yourself have fun through the use of the available tools, perhaps you should move along.

And, NO, I've never seen where the first cache was hidden. That's in Portland, Oregon. I'm in Virginia. There's a few miles between here and there. I was going by Groundspeak's own description of the original cache "On May 3rd he placed his own container, a black bucket, in the woods near Beaver Creek, Oregon, near Portland. " The key words there being In The Woods. Not on a guardrail, not in a Walmart parking lot, Not even in his own front yard or neighborhood park.

Both can be true. There are certainly thousands of caches that are but a few steps into the woods.

No replies needed to this post. If no one is going to listen then I'm going to return the favor. Geesh, and they wonder why people are leaving this game.

Oops. Don't read this post. Edited April 14, 2008 by sbell111

[Clan Riffster]

What I think might be the best answer is I start a new website, where there are NO Park & Grab type caches.

Might I suggest a name?

www.nolaymassparkandgrabcaches.com

It's available.

[+Too Tall John]

What I think might be the best answer is I start a new website, where there are NO Park & Grab type caches.

Might I suggest a name?

www.nolaymassparkandgrabcaches.com

It's available.

Might I suggest that those in Nolay, Massachusetts may not appreciate a website promoting P&G's in their town...

 

[Clan Riffster]

[+Too Tall John]

You go into these small towns in SW Virginia and, like a lot of small towns in the country, there has been a growth in recent years of new cachers who enjoy hiding park 'n grab caches at the Wal*Mart and the Cracker Barrel. And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to ammo cans or tupperware or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-micro sentiment or anti-anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Did you know you were being recorded when you said that?

 

indnajins: A definition to what would be considered a P&G that would be used in the same way by all the volunteer reviewers would be near impossible to formulate.

 

A much simpler solution would be to require explicit permission for all caches placed on property that is obviously commercial. Not only would it eliminate 99% of LPCs, it would show that we are serious about respecting landowners' wishes.

 

Neither is likely to happen anytime soon.

[Clan Riffster]

A much simpler solution would be to require explicit permission for all caches placed on property that is obviously commercial.

I think a more proactive solution would be to simply require proof of permission for any cache on private property.

(I.e; my neighbor's yard. A Wally World parking lot, etc)

Groundspeak already requires explicit permission for caches on many public lands. Seems like they'd want to demonstrate to the property owners that their rights were at least taken into consideration. And yes, I agree it probably won't happen any time soon. The squawking would be deafening.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Clan Riffster

[+indnajns]

For Muschtang, who DID miss the point, I DID NOT SAY BAN LAMP POST CACHES. I said tag them, not ban them. Pay attention.

 

What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request. I have never posted on a forum and been treated so RUDELY. Anywhere, ever. I'm sorry, but you all are a bunch of elitist snobs. We have people leaving the game because they no longer enjoy it, and rather than be concerned and ask, "What can we do to help?" we have a bunch of people screaming, "NO! You can't change anything!" Where I'm from, you HELP your neighbor, you don't beat him down with insults.

 

Aside from all the snotty denials, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how labeling Park & Grabs negatively affects anyone or keeps them from caching. I never said ban them. I just asked could we not call a spade a spade. And don't go dragging out that moronic "then label all ammo cans under a pile of sticks" crap. There is no comparison.

For one, ammo cans are almost always labeled as such. "You will be looking for an ammo can full of goodies." is usually the phrase. How about YOU ALL use the filters if ammo cans bother you so badly? I have yet to see a lamp post hide labeled "You are looking for a lamp post" and hence the issue. There is no good way to distinguish lamp posts (or guard rails, or newspaper boxes, or whatever your local P&G is.) from other types of caches. You all said "filter". One would have to filter "guardrail", "EGGS", "SAD", "P&G", "Park and Grab", who knows what other words; you still wouldn't have caught them all and would also filter out more interesting hides . Very inefficient, and certainly not K.I.S.S. I’m supposed to miss out on caches I might like to find, just to keep a couple of whiners happy? Considering that most hiders admit their cache is some sort of quick grab in the description, (just never using any sort of consistent phrasing that can be filtered) I don't see the problem with actually officially labeling them as such.

For two, ammo cans "in the woods" are pretty easy to recognize in the listings. They are the ones in the unpopulated areas (read parks or green areas) of the maps. There is no way to so distinguish P&Gs, in town or elsewhere.

Three, there aren’t posting after posting after posting complaining about ammo cans. Can’t say the same about the Lamp post P&Gs.

“Me thinks thou dost protest too much.” It’s as if those cachers “racking their numbers up” are afraid some dirty little secret will be exposed if we label lamp post caches.

I will say this. The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Good Day.

[+sbell111]

Thanks for dredging this one back up. There was so much more to talk about on this topic.[/sarcasm]

For Muschtang, who DID miss the point, I DID NOT SAY BAN LAMP POST CACHES. I said tag them, not ban them. Pay attention. What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request. I have never posted on a forum and been treated so RUDELY. Anywhere, ever. I'm sorry, but you all are a bunch of elitist snobs. We have people leaving the game because they no longer enjoy it, and rather than be concerned and ask, "What can we do to help?" we have a bunch of people screaming, "NO! You can't change anything!" Where I'm from, you HELP your neighbor, you don't beat him down with insults.

Actually, helpful suggestions have been given for how those people that don't like these caches can cope. Just because people didn't embrace your idea, doesn't mean that that they didn't show concern and offer assistance.

Aside from all the snotty denials, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how labeling Park & Grabs negatively affects anyone or keeps them from caching.

As explained a few time earlier in the thread, Park & Grabs are really already labeled. A 1/1, by definition, is a park and grab. Beyond that, it is a matter of perception. Clearly, you define 'park & grab' differently than someone else might define it. Should we use your definition of 'P&G', or mine?

I never said ban them. I just asked could we not call a spade a spade. And don't go dragging out that moronic "then label all ammo cans under a pile of sticks" crap. There is no comparison.

There actually is. As explained earlier in the thread, if we label P&Gs for you, shouldn't we label 'caches under a pile of sticks' for someone else? Fake birdhouse caches for someone else? How about fake rock caches? Caches in trees?

For one, ammo cans are almost always labeled as such. "You will be looking for an ammo can full of goodies." is usually the phrase.

I suspect that the a large percentage of ammo cans are not described that way in the cache description.

How about YOU ALL use the filters if ammo cans bother you so badly? I have yet to see a lamp post hide labeled "You are looking for a lamp post" and hence the issue. There is no good way to distinguish lamp posts (or guard rails, or newspaper boxes, or whatever your local P&G is.) from other types of caches. You all said "filter". One would have to filter "guardrail", "EGGS", "SAD", "P&G", "Park and Grab", who knows what other words; you still wouldn't have caught them all and would also filter out more interesting hides. Very inefficient, and certainly not K.I.S.S.

Again, if the end result is a ton of caches that you would like and few that you don't, who cares if you also filtered out a few pearls? (Not to mention the fact that methods have been given to avoid filtering future pearls out and get older ones back into your 'find list'.

I’m supposed to miss out on caches I might like to find, just to keep a couple of whiners happy?

Does anyone have that pot/kettle graphic handy?

 

<to be continued>

Edited April 25, 2008 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

Considering that most hiders admit their cache is some sort of quick grab in the description, (just never using any sort of consistent phrasing that can be filtered) I don't see the problem with actually officially labeling them as such.

Again, I suspect that 'most' cachers do not do this. The difficulty/terrain ratings make these P&Gs really easy to identify, however.

For two, ammo cans "in the woods" are pretty easy to recognize in the listings. They are the ones in the unpopulated areas (read parks or green areas) of the maps. There is no way to so distinguish P&Gs, in town or elsewhere.

You're really taking the position that you can't identify light pole caches by using a map? Here's a clue: If you look at your map of easy peasy micros and the cache shows to be in the Wal-Mart parking lot, that's an LPM.

Three, there aren’t posting after posting after posting complaining about ammo cans. Can’t say the same about the Lamp post P&Gs.

First, if you reread my post, you will find that it was talking about the sameness of the hide 'ammo can under a pile of sticks', much as people were complaining about the sameness of P&Gs.

 

Also, you should do a search. I can find lots of threads on how ammo cans being inappropriate. Don't miss Snazz's near-classic 'ammo boxes should be banned' thread.

"Me thinks thou dost protest too much.” It’s as if those cachers “racking their numbers up” are afraid some dirty little secret will be exposed if we label lamp post caches.

Methinks that you didn't take a very close look at people's profiles prior to making this comment. The people you are arguing with are not 'high numbers' cachers.

I will say this. The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Good Day.

A few thoughts:

• You should practice what you preach
  
• These forums are mild compared to most
  
• You reap what you sow
  
• Geocaching, when boiled down, is finding a cache, signing the log book, and recording the find online. I can't find 'arguing in the forums' anywhere in there.
  

Edited April 25, 2008 by sbell111

[+Team Cotati]

For Muschtang, who DID miss the point, I DID NOT SAY BAN LAMP POST CACHES. I said tag them, not ban them. Pay attention.

 

What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request. I have never posted on a forum and been treated so RUDELY. Anywhere, ever. I'm sorry, but you all are a bunch of elitist snobs. We have people leaving the game because they no longer enjoy it, and rather than be concerned and ask, "What can we do to help?" we have a bunch of people screaming, "NO! You can't change anything!" Where I'm from, you HELP your neighbor, you don't beat him down with insults.

 

Aside from all the snotty denials, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how labeling Park & Grabs negatively affects anyone or keeps them from caching. I never said ban them. I just asked could we not call a spade a spade. And don't go dragging out that moronic "then label all ammo cans under a pile of sticks" crap. There is no comparison.

For one, ammo cans are almost always labeled as such. "You will be looking for an ammo can full of goodies." is usually the phrase. How about YOU ALL use the filters if ammo cans bother you so badly? I have yet to see a lamp post hide labeled "You are looking for a lamp post" and hence the issue. There is no good way to distinguish lamp posts (or guard rails, or newspaper boxes, or whatever your local P&G is.) from other types of caches. You all said "filter". One would have to filter "guardrail", "EGGS", "SAD", "P&G", "Park and Grab", who knows what other words; you still wouldn't have caught them all and would also filter out more interesting hides . Very inefficient, and certainly not K.I.S.S. I’m supposed to miss out on caches I might like to find, just to keep a couple of whiners happy? Considering that most hiders admit their cache is some sort of quick grab in the description, (just never using any sort of consistent phrasing that can be filtered) I don't see the problem with actually officially labeling them as such.

For two, ammo cans "in the woods" are pretty easy to recognize in the listings. They are the ones in the unpopulated areas (read pa rks or green areas) of the maps. There is no way to so distinguish P&Gs, in town or elsewhere.

Three, there aren’t posting after posting after posting complaining about ammo cans. Can’t say the same about the Lamp post P&Gs.

“Me thinks thou dost protest too much.” It’s as if those cachers “racking their numbers up” are afraid some dirty little secret will be exposed if we label lamp post caches.

I will say this. The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Good Day.

 

Well said and dead-on accurate. Witness the substantiation that resulted. Do not be discouraged from speaking up for what is right. Others will see and judge for themselves.

[+sbell111]

For Muschtang, who DID miss the point, I DID NOT SAY BAN LAMP POST CACHES. I said tag them, not ban them. Pay attention.

 

What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request. I have never posted on a forum and been treated so RUDELY. Anywhere, ever. I'm sorry, but you all are a bunch of elitist snobs. We have people leaving the game because they no longer enjoy it, and rather than be concerned and ask, "What can we do to help?" we have a bunch of people screaming, "NO! You can't change anything!" Where I'm from, you HELP your neighbor, you don't beat him down with insults.

 

Aside from all the snotty denials, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how labeling Park & Grabs negatively affects anyone or keeps them from caching. I never said ban them. I just asked could we not call a spade a spade. And don't go dragging out that moronic "then label all ammo cans under a pile of sticks" crap. There is no comparison.

For one, ammo cans are almost always labeled as such. "You will be looking for an ammo can full of goodies." is usually the phrase. How about YOU ALL use the filters if ammo cans bother you so badly? I have yet to see a lamp post hide labeled "You are looking for a lamp post" and hence the issue. There is no good way to distinguish lamp posts (or guard rails, or newspaper boxes, or whatever your local P&G is.) from other types of caches. You all said "filter". One would have to filter "guardrail", "EGGS", "SAD", "P&G", "Park and Grab", who knows what other words; you still wouldn't have caught them all and would also filter out more interesting hides . Very inefficient, and certainly not K.I.S.S. I’m supposed to miss out on caches I might like to find, just to keep a couple of whiners happy? Considering that most hiders admit their cache is some sort of quick grab in the description, (just never using any sort of consistent phrasing that can be filtered) I don't see the problem with actually officially labeling them as such.

For two, ammo cans "in the woods" are pretty easy to recognize in the listings. They are the ones in the unpopulated areas (read pa rks or green areas) of the maps. There is no way to so distinguish P&Gs, in town or elsewhere.

Three, there aren’t posting after posting after posting complaining about ammo cans. Can’t say the same about the Lamp post P&Gs.

“Me thinks thou dost protest too much.” It’s as if those cachers “racking their numbers up” are afraid some dirty little secret will be exposed if we label lamp post caches.

I will say this. The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Good Day.

 

Well said and dead-on accurate. Witness the substantiation that resulted. Do not be discouraged from speaking up for what is right. Others will see and judge for themselves.

Do you really want to use the word 'substantiation'? It suggests that he made a post and then people jumped in and proved him wrong. While I believe that to be pretty accurate, I don't think that it's what you meant. Edited April 25, 2008 by sbell111

[+KBI]

What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request.

Thank you, indnajns, for correcting my, and everyone else’s, vitriolic forum behavior via Leading By Example:

 

Pay attention.

<KBI stands at attention and prepares to be lectured>

 

.... you all are a bunch of elitist snobs.

We elitist snobs are apparently much more familiar with the forum guidelines than you. Or come to think of it, maybe it's just that we elitist snobs have never clearly understood, until now, how best to apply an insulting personal attack in place of an academic argument. We've been needing someone to show us. Please, go on ....

 

.... snotty denials ....

You’re right. We should all drop the pflegmish and stick with English only.

 

And don't go dragging out that moronic "then label all ammo cans under a pile of sticks" crap.

I’m a crappy moron? I thought I was an elitist snob. Can a moron really be a snob? I guess I've got a lot to learn.

 

I’m supposed to miss out on caches I might like to find, just to keep a couple of whiners happy?

You’re exactly right. Tens of thousands of cacher owners should instead fall in line with yet another rule (gently) proposed by yet another Creativity Czar, all because you can’t stand the occasional cache which disappoints your sense of entitlement to some minimum acceptable level of entertainment from your fellow amateur volunteers cache hiders.

 

(Who, again, did you say was doing the whining?)

 

The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Thank you for tossing a much-needed air freshener of subtle diplomacy and quiet wisdom into our steaming cowpile of rudeness. Your post is a true inspiration to us rude snotty crappy elitist moronic snobs. Edited April 25, 2008 by KBI

[+The Jester]

Thanks, KBI. You said what I wanted to, but in more gentle manner.

[+tozainamboku]

<snip long rant>

I will say this. The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Good Day.

 

The SDOEL have repeatedly indicated methods for avoiding caches you don't like and seeking out the ones you do like. No system is perfect - you can't eliminate all lame caches and any system is likely to eliminate some great caches along with the LPCs you find lame.

 

It sounds like you are asking for a perfect system. You want people to label their caches "cache that indnajs would find lame" so that you can filter these out and still look for all the caches you might enjoy. Well that ain't gonna happen. Certainly we could have a PnG attribute and many people who hide PnG caches might even want to use this attribute. It would actually help that power (numbers) cachers more than those who are trying to avoid LPCs.

 

Let me tell you how my friends who like to find lots of PnG caches plan their cache runs. The get a PQ that contains traditional caches with difficulty less than or equal 2.5 and terrain less than or equal 1.1. They load that into GSAK and filter further by looking for caches that don't have any recent DNFs. Then they plot the remaining caches using Streets & Maps and start working on a route to take them past as many caches as possible. They even look which side of the street the cache is on and may get all the cache going one way and then turn around to the the ones going the other. They find 70 to 100 caches and have a great time.

 

When I go hiking, I look for caches with terrain 2.5 or higher. When I find some cache I want to do, I will then look at all nearby caches. There might be a 1/1 in a lamppost at the trailhead - and as long as I'm there might as well find that one.

 

I am at an event an someone tells me there is a 3/1 urban cache nearby I should try. Sure enough I go and have to search for a long time. Finally I spot something a little different about one of the letters on the sign. How did he ever think of that?

 

Someone creates a bookmarklist of 1/1 caches that are at some location they think is Wow! I go and look for caches on that list. Some are LPCs but everyone had a great view or was near some interesting piece of art or there was an historic marker there where I learn something interesting about my town I didn't know.

 

There are already many ways to improve you caching experience. There are new ideas that Jeremy has announced for v 2.0. I hope you can use them to improve your experience.

[+Team Cotati]

For Muschtang, who DID miss the point, I DID NOT SAY BAN LAMP POST CACHES. I said tag them, not ban them. Pay attention.

 

What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request. I have never posted on a forum and been treated so RUDELY. Anywhere, ever. I'm sorry, but you all are a bunch of elitist snobs. We have people leaving the game because they no longer enjoy it, and rather than be concerned and ask, "What can we do to help?" we have a bunch of people screaming, "NO! You can't change anything!" Where I'm from, you HELP your neighbor, you don't beat him down with insults.

 

Aside from all the snotty denials, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how labeling Park & Grabs negatively affects anyone or keeps them from caching. I never said ban them. I just asked could we not call a spade a spade. And don't go dragging out that moronic "then label all ammo cans under a pile of sticks" crap. There is no comparison.

For one, ammo cans are almost always labeled as such. "You will be looking for an ammo can full of goodies." is usually the phrase. How about YOU ALL use the filters if ammo cans bother you so badly? I have yet to see a lamp post hide labeled "You are looking for a lamp post" and hence the issue. There is no good way to distinguish lamp posts (or guard rails, or newspaper boxes, or whatever your local P&G is.) from other types of caches. You all said "filter". One would have to filter "guardrail", "EGGS", "SAD", "P&G", "Park and Grab", who knows what other words; you still wouldn't have caught them all and would also filter out more interesting hides . Very inefficient, and certainly not K.I.S.S. I’m supposed to miss out on caches I might like to find, just to keep a couple of whiners happy? Considering that most hiders admit their cache is some sort of quick grab in the description, (just never using any sort of consistent phrasing that can be filtered) I don't see the problem with actually officially labeling them as such.

For two, ammo cans "in the woods" are pretty easy to recognize in the listings. They are the ones in the unpopulated areas (read pa rks or green areas) of the maps. There is no way to so distinguish P&Gs, in town or elsewhere.

Three, there aren’t posting after posting after posting complaining about ammo cans. Can’t say the same about the Lamp post P&Gs.

“Me thinks thou dost protest too much.” It’s as if those cachers “racking their numbers up” are afraid some dirty little secret will be exposed if we label lamp post caches.

I will say this. The absolutely rude and snotty behavior of posters here sure does dampen my enthusiasm for being a member of the geocaching community.

Good Day.

 

Well said and dead-on accurate. Witness the substantiation that resulted. Do not be discouraged from speaking up for what is right. Others will see and judge for themselves.

Do you really want to use the word 'substantiation'? It suggests that he made a post and then people jumped in and proved him wrong. While I believe that to be pretty accurate, I don't think that it's what you meant.

Message transmitted.............message recieved.

 

Thanks.

[+Renegade Knight]

...What is saddening and disheartening is to see the vitriolic replies over such a simple request. I have never posted on a forum and been treated so RUDELY. Anywhere, ever. I'm sorry, but you all are a bunch of elitist snobs....

 

Aside from all the snotty denials, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how labeling Park & Grabs negatively affects anyone...

 

This deserves two answers.

To the first part. I'm sorry you feel you were treated rudly, but in light of the elitist snob bit I'm pretty sure you should be tough enough to deal wiht the rudeness you dish out.

 

The second part is simple.

If labeling a cache a park and grab stops one person who would have enjoyed that cache from seeking it, it's the wrong label because they missed out on something they would have enjoyed. Does it negativly harm them? Probably not, but the onwer doesn't get a "man I would have thoght this to be a regular park & grab but it turns out to be the cahe of the day for me, let me tell you..."

[Clan Riffster]

there aren’t posting after posting after posting complaining about ammo cans.

Strange, huh?

I guess if there were ever an outcry against ammo cans, we'd need to come up with another acronym.

SDOEK? Staunch Defenders Of Everything Kewl?