Micro Mania

[CoyoteRed]

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

What you call "complaining" others may call "advocating a change" which, BTW, is doing something that would actually help.

Help whom? I suppose that it would help those people who want to cache without doing any 'homework', but it appears to me that the change that some posters advocate would certainly not help those people who enjoy those caches that you find to be 'lame'.

I can't remember if you answered a query I posed to you earlier. Here it is again. Do you even know what I consider lame?

 

Would those folks you speak of like a cache less if it were not lame?

[+team moxiepup]

I think maybe some people are confusing park and grab micros with lame micros. Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes they are not. A micro can be be placed in a creative way, yet easy to find and picked up quickly. We have one that would be extremely evil if placed out in the woods, yet being in a small memorial urban park, it is easy to hone in on and the cache can be found quickly. GC1408W A passing muggle could be looking straight at it and never see it. People seem to be enjoying it... both people who don't like difficult hides and those that do.

 

It took some time and effort to create the container. All the while I was working on it, the thought goes through my head that someone could just take a "seed cache" micro they have in their possession, and just chuck it in there, giving all of 30 seconds of thought into it.

 

In my earlier post I stated...

 

"Sometimes they're even in spots that are adjacent to private homes or businesses. There was one that recently was confiscated by the police because the hider put it in a guard rail near a child care center, and the owners were concerned about what people were doing."

 

In these cases, Geocaching itself is being given a bad name to the community at large. Anything that does that opens the door to the authorities to start putting restrictions on caching. They can cite these thoughtlessly placed caches as "examples".

Here are some of the logs for this cache-

 

"Tried for this since it hadn't been disabled before I left for Maine ;-(

A woman came out of the business this was in front of and she said that the police had been there in response to a report that "someone had put something in the guardrail" and she thought they had taken it. I visited the police station and, perhaps not surprisingly, they denied knowing anything about geocaching or about any responses to that location. (If I hadn't read my FBI reports about geocaching and had seized something so innocent I would probably deny it too)."

 

Owners log- "Well, I guess we can confirm that this one is missing and will not return to the same location! Archiving with the hopes of bringing it back in a new spot. "

 

Here is a log from another, that was placed right in front of a homeowner's property.-

 

"While we were finding this one, the owner of the house drove up and asked what we were doing. She said a man with a little boy was there yesterday and she thought the little boy had to go to the bathroom. I assured her I wasn't doing that and most likely neither was the little boy. I had to confess and tell her about Geocaching and she seemed to be relieved that we weren't being...relieved."

 

Regardless of what type of cache you enjoy hunting for, taking the time to make sure your cache is hidden in a place that causes no public concern is only proper and good for the game. There are micros that are lame because they are mundane, unoriginal, and don't bring you anywhere special, then there are really lame micros that actually jeopardize the game. To me, the "seed" cache micros especially just too often encourage people to hide a cache without thinking.

[+KBI]

What’s more lame: the easy urban micro,...

I simply couldn't let this one go ...

Well, that's too bad.

 

As I have explained to you before, I will not debate you any further until you publicly apologize to me for personally attacking me and publicly questioning my fidelity to my principles.

 

--> reminder <--

 

(Or do you actually believe there is some benefit to your being seen arguing against someone whom you have already publicly accused of being nothing but a troll?)

 

I will neither entertain treatises on caching excellence nor interpretations of caching community morals from someone who refuses to take responsibility for his own poor judgment in choosing irrational character assassination over logical debate.

 

I would be happy to address the most recent points you’ve raised (not that you’ve said anything new), but why should I do so if you’re only going to ultimately respond by saying “But there is no way you can actually believe these things you’re arguing, KBI; you’re just making up your position so you can play devil’s advocate and make noise.”

 

Let’s get past this, CoyoteRed. Go ahead and apologize – AND admit that I am as honest about my arguments, opinions and principles as you are about yours – so that we can finally get on with this discussion.

[+TrailGators]

Regardless of what type of cache you enjoy hunting for, taking the time to make sure your cache is hidden in a place that causes no public concern is only proper and good for the game. There are micros that are lame because they are mundane, unoriginal, and don't bring you anywhere special, then there are really lame micros that actually jeopardize the game. To me, the "seed" cache micros especially just too often encourage people to hide a cache without thinking.

I know exactly what you mean. I instantly ignore caches that are hidden in people's yards. I sure wouldn't want a bunch of strangers snooping through bushes at my house or my neighbors house. The Golden Rule isn't a geocaching guideline, but I will always try to follow it. Edited July 21, 2007 by TrailGators

[Mushtang]

I think maybe some people are confusing park and grab micros with lame micros. Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes they are not. A micro can be be placed in a creative way, yet easy to find and picked up quickly.

You're correct. Micros haven't cornered the market on lameness at all. There are a lot of lame caches that are not micros. It really depends on what the person judging it considers to be lame. If every cache they ever find is an ammo can shoved under a fallen tree, with a bunch of sticks piled in front of it to cover it, I'm sure they'd grow tired of them and eventually think of them as lame.

 

It's easy to understand that someone could find nothing but these kinds of caches and wonder why they were brought to yet another county park to walk on a trail through some woods? Once you've seen one you've pretty much seen them all.

 

Micros are also not solely responsible for putting the game in jeopardy. Ammo cans have also been known to be hidden in places that have caused a big alarm (with bomb squads), and have led to bans in areas after being buried, or hidden on private property.

 

So why do those of us that periodically suggest that lame micro haters simply remove micros from their PQs in order to enjoy caching more? Because so often statements are made like this:

There are micros that are lame because they are mundane, unoriginal, and don't bring you anywhere special, then there are really lame micros that actually jeopardize the game. To me, the "seed" cache micros especially just too often encourage people to hide a cache without thinking.

 

[+sbell111]

...

The problem is, the library only holds 500 books. ...

Right there was where your analogy went off track.

 

In reality, we have access to an amazingly huge library and we have loads of ways to sort through the books to find the awesome ones. Once you read every awesome book in the library, you can take a closer look at the questionable ones to see if you would enjoy reading those. However, I've yet to meet anyone who has even attempted to claim that they've read every awesome book.

Edited July 21, 2007 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

What you call "complaining" others may call "advocating a change" which, BTW, is doing something that would actually help.

Help whom? I suppose that it would help those people who want to cache without doing any 'homework', but it appears to me that the change that some posters advocate would certainly not help those people who enjoy those caches that you find to be 'lame'.

I can't remember if you answered a query I posed to you earlier. Here it is again. Do you even know what I consider lame?

That was a different thread, and I answered your question twice and asked you to please define 'lame' for all of us, which you never got around to doing.

Would those folks you speak of like a cache less if it were not lame?

Here's the thing: Those people don't think that the cache is lame. They like the cache just fine.

[+sbell111]

Regardless of what type of cache you enjoy hunting for, taking the time to make sure your cache is hidden in a place that causes no public concern is only proper and good for the game. There are micros that are lame because they are mundane, unoriginal, and don't bring you anywhere special, then there are really lame micros that actually jeopardize the game. To me, the "seed" cache micros especially just too often encourage people to hide a cache without thinking.

I know exactly what you mean. I instantly ignore caches that are hidden in people's yards. I sure wouldn't want a bunch of strangers snooping through bushes at my house or my neighbors house. The Golden Rule isn't a geocaching guideline, but I will always try to follow it.

Hold on to your hat:

 

I agree.

[+TrailGators]

Regardless of what type of cache you enjoy hunting for, taking the time to make sure your cache is hidden in a place that causes no public concern is only proper and good for the game. There are micros that are lame because they are mundane, unoriginal, and don't bring you anywhere special, then there are really lame micros that actually jeopardize the game. To me, the "seed" cache micros especially just too often encourage people to hide a cache without thinking.

I know exactly what you mean. I instantly ignore caches that are hidden in people's yards. I sure wouldn't want a bunch of strangers snooping through bushes at my house or my neighbors house. The Golden Rule isn't a geocaching guideline, but I will always try to follow it.

Hold on to your hat:

 

I agree.

I better mark this day on my calendar! July 21st, 2007: This is the day that....

[+The Jester]

Would those folks you speak of like a cache less if it were not lame?

Invalid arguement. One, it uses your definition of lame (and it makes no difference what your exact definition is, you've classified it as "lame" in the question). The finders that enjoy the cache may not think it's lame. Two, to make it "not lame" would make it a different hide, a different cache, so you'd be comparing apples and oranges.

[+tozainamboku]

I can sympathize with briansnat' and his library. I used to go to an ice cream parlor that had the best vanilla and chocolate ice cream. They also had one other 'flavor of the month'. Sometimes I liked that flavor and sometimes I didn't. When I didn't, I knew that at the end of the month they would change the flavor and I could try something else. In the meantime I could stick to chocolate or vanilla. But the ice cream parlor changed their policy and instead of having the flavor of the month they kept all the flavors all time. I don't like most of the flavors. There is still the vanilla and chocolate but sometimes they are hard to find because there are so many other flavors in the freezer. And they don't label the flavors. One day I pointed to what I thought was chocolate. I got a scoop of what turned out to be rocky road. And being allergic to peanuts, I went into anaphylactic shock. Fortunately, I was carrying my Epipen and was able to give myself a shot. I think I will stop eating ice cream at this shop.

 

Geocaching has changed. There are more of what I call urban cachers. The most important quality in choosing a cache for them is convenience. They may just want to get their caching fix and have just a few minutes while out running errands to find a cache. So if someone hides one in the parking lot of the store that is really the best location for a cache. Sometimes they may want to try to see how many caches they can find in a limited time period - maybe even try to set a "record". So of course they will select park 'n grabs as you can do more of these in a certain time. Other people are less obsessive in their geocaching behavior. They don't feel a need to cache every day. They are willing to take time to plan their caching and select caches that are in locations they are likely to enjoy.

 

What I'm noticing now is a third group. These are people who still put a high value on convenience. They select caches with a low terrain and close by. But they expect these caches to take them someplace interesting. Perhaps before there were so many urban cachers, people who hid urban caches selected historic markers or little neighborhood parks as places to hide caches. If they hid a cache in the strip mall it was because of the little ethnic restaurant or unique store that was there. People placed caches to let other cachers know about the best kept secrets in their neighborhood. Sometime people in this third group don't mind being taken to a mundane place. If the cache is hidden in some unique way they may feel that as being enough to justify the cache. Sometimes just having as container that is larger than they would normally find seems to make the difference between a lame cache and one that is not. So the people in the third group might really be asking if there are ways to encourage the urban cachers to select better locations or vary their hiding techniques so that not all the caches in an area are the same. In lieu of this, they may be looking for ways to find those urban caches that are either in places of interest or that show extra creativity in the hiding technique.

[+briansnat]

What percentage of the caches in your PQ would be micros... if you eliminated micros from your PQ?

 

Now why would I want to eliminate some of the awesome micros that are out there?

Um... to eliminate the rest of the pile that you consider crap?

 

To bring you back to how it used to be in "the good old days" of geocaching?

 

So you can have geocaching be closer to (1) what it was?

 

To avoid being (2) disappointed by what it has become?

 

So you can (5) eliminate any research and still have a good chance at finding the caches you enjoy?

 

Pretty much to make your experience more enjoyable based on how you've suggested you enjoy it.

 

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

 

 

I fail to see how eliminating all micros will do that. I've found quite a few outstanding micros.

[Mushtang]

What percentage of the caches in your PQ would be micros... if you eliminated micros from your PQ?

 

Now why would I want to eliminate some of the awesome micros that are out there?

Um... to eliminate the rest of the pile that you consider crap?

 

To bring you back to how it used to be in "the good old days" of geocaching?

 

So you can have geocaching be closer to (1) what it was?

 

To avoid being (2) disappointed by what it has become?

 

So you can (5) eliminate any research and still have a good chance at finding the caches you enjoy?

 

Pretty much to make your experience more enjoyable based on how you've suggested you enjoy it.

 

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

 

 

I fail to see how eliminating all micros will do that. I've found quite a few outstanding micros.

So I guess since you've found some that are outstanding, you're actually happy with all the caches you find as a whole? My bad, I guess I'd misunderstood you earlier.

[+briansnat]

What percentage of the caches in your PQ would be micros... if you eliminated micros from your PQ?

 

Now why would I want to eliminate some of the awesome micros that are out there?

Um... to eliminate the rest of the pile that you consider crap?

 

To bring you back to how it used to be in "the good old days" of geocaching?

 

So you can have geocaching be closer to (1) what it was?

 

To avoid being (2) disappointed by what it has become?

 

So you can (5) eliminate any research and still have a good chance at finding the caches you enjoy?

 

Pretty much to make your experience more enjoyable based on how you've suggested you enjoy it.

 

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

 

 

I fail to see how eliminating all micros will do that. I've found quite a few outstanding micros.

So I guess since you've found some that are outstanding, you're actually happy with all the caches you find as a whole? My bad, I guess I'd misunderstood you earlier.

 

Being that most of the local hiders place great caches, I'm generally very happy with the situation. It's when I travel to other areas that my enjoyment of the game has waned. My last trip I didn't even bother and just went hiking. Might have missed some great spots, but it was too hard to pick them out among all the strip mall loading docks.

[+sbell111]

What percentage of the caches in your PQ would be micros... if you eliminated micros from your PQ?

Now why would I want to eliminate some of the awesome micros that are out there?

Um... to eliminate the rest of the pile that you consider crap?

 

To bring you back to how it used to be in "the good old days" of geocaching?

 

So you can have geocaching be closer to (1) what it was?

 

To avoid being (2) disappointed by what it has become?

 

So you can (5) eliminate any research and still have a good chance at finding the caches you enjoy?

 

Pretty much to make your experience more enjoyable based on how you've suggested you enjoy it.

 

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

I fail to see how eliminating all micros will do that. I've found quite a few outstanding micros.

So I guess since you've found some that are outstanding, you're actually happy with all the caches you find as a whole? My bad, I guess I'd misunderstood you earlier.

Being that most of the local hiders place great caches, I'm generally very happy with the situation. It's when I travel to other areas that my enjoyment of the game has waned. My last trip I didn't even bother and just went hiking. Might have missed some great spots, but it was too hard to pick them out among all the strip mall loading docks.

Based on our years of interactions, I know that you are an avid hiker. (Frankly, I'm a bit jealous of this.) Since you enjoy hiking so much, I am somewhat surprised that you don't single out caches with higher terrain ratings when you travel. I would think that you would kill two birds with one stone. Either way, I bet you have fun. Edited July 21, 2007 by sbell111

[+KBI]

Being that most of the local hiders place great caches, I'm generally very happy with the situation. It's when I travel to other areas that my enjoyment of the game has waned. My last trip I didn't even bother and just went hiking. Might have missed some great spots, but it was too hard to pick them out among all the strip mall loading docks.

This has not been my experience. Suit yourself, but I think you might be giving up too soon. In my experience I can usually determine how scenic/clever/historic or bland/tedious/lame a cache is with a ten-second (or less) scan of the description and recent logs. I would think any cacher with even a limited amount of experience could accomplish this. My personal success rate in this regard runs better than 95% ... and I don't even use PQs!

 

When there are too many caches around for me to hunt them all, I generally prefer to lean toward those in the first category. When there are few, or none, of the scenic/clever/historic types, however, I happily go after the other kind, but of course your preference might lead you to skip those altogether.

 

The ten second plan is almost completely painless. I happen to enjoy the anticipation myself, but even for someone who can't stand ANY type of homework, you're only looking at two minutes of drudgery for every dozen caches you decide to consider. How many caches can you do in a day anyway? And you don't even have to do it all at once -- you can homework-on-the-fly, scanning the page (printout or paperless) for the next nearest cache after you complete each search!

[+sbell111]

... The ten second plan is almost completely painless. I happen to enjoy the anticipation myself, but even for someone who can't stand ANY type of homework, you're only looking at two minutes of drudgery for every dozen caches you decide to consider. How many caches can you do in a day anyway? And you don't even have to do it all at once -- you can homework-on-the-fly, scanning the page (printout or paperless) for the next nearest cache after you complete each search!

That's the way that I do it. Since I'm paperless, it's super easy to take a look at the next cache page before I hit <goto>. If that cache doesn't look like one that I'm in the mood for, I move on to the next one. It's easy peasy.

 

Edit: If I hate typos so much, how come I keep making them???

Edited July 22, 2007 by sbell111

[+Team GeoBlast]

Regardless of what type of cache you enjoy hunting for, taking the time to make sure your cache is hidden in a place that causes no public concern is only proper and good for the game. There are micros that are lame because they are mundane, unoriginal, and don't bring you anywhere special, then there are really lame micros that actually jeopardize the game. To me, the "seed" cache micros especially just too often encourage people to hide a cache without thinking.

I know exactly what you mean. I instantly ignore caches that are hidden in people's yards. I sure wouldn't want a bunch of strangers snooping through bushes at my house or my neighbors house. The Golden Rule isn't a geocaching guideline, but I will always try to follow it.

Hold on to your hat:

 

I agree.

 

Dude, you feeling okay?

[Mushtang]

What percentage of the caches in your PQ would be micros... if you eliminated micros from your PQ?

 

Now why would I want to eliminate some of the awesome micros that are out there?

Um... to eliminate the rest of the pile that you consider crap?

 

To bring you back to how it used to be in "the good old days" of geocaching?

 

So you can have geocaching be closer to (1) what it was?

 

To avoid being (2) disappointed by what it has become?

 

So you can (5) eliminate any research and still have a good chance at finding the caches you enjoy?

 

Pretty much to make your experience more enjoyable based on how you've suggested you enjoy it.

 

If, however, complaining about it is what you prefer over doing anything about it that can actually help, then that's cool too. Whichever is more fun.

 

 

I fail to see how eliminating all micros will do that. I've found quite a few outstanding micros.

So I guess since you've found some that are outstanding, you're actually happy with all the caches you find as a whole? My bad, I guess I'd misunderstood you earlier.

 

Being that most of the local hiders place great caches, I'm generally very happy with the situation. It's when I travel to other areas that my enjoyment of the game has waned. My last trip I didn't even bother and just went hiking. Might have missed some great spots, but it was too hard to pick them out among all the strip mall loading docks.

I've said it before., this game isn't for everyone. If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead.

 

You've been given an easy solution to your particular problem. It's not a perfect solution that will eliminate 100% of caches you wouldn't enjoy and leave only the ones you'd love, but life is like that. It seems to me that if you tried these suggestions you'd be happier at caching, but you're the only one that can make that decision.

 

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.

[+briansnat]

You've been given an easy solution to your particular problem. It's not a perfect solution that will eliminate 100% of caches you wouldn't enjoy and leave only the ones you'd love, but life is like that. It seems to me that if you tried these suggestions you'd be happier at caching, but you're the only one that can make that decision.

 

It's a very poor solution. Many of the kinds of places I enjoy seeing generally require micros or very small caches.

 

I've said it before., this game isn't for everyone. If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead.

 

I've said it before, it wasn't like that at one time. I don't like the way things are headed because something I once enjoyed is disappearing. I reserve the right to be annoyed.

[+KBI]

You've been given an easy solution to your particular problem. It's not a perfect solution that will eliminate 100% of caches you wouldn't enjoy and leave only the ones you'd love, but life is like that. It seems to me that if you tried these suggestions you'd be happier at caching, but you're the only one that can make that decision.

It's a very poor solution.

Spending a few seconds scanning a cache page before hunting a cache is a very poor solution? What is so different about the way you and I cache that prevents you from employing this very simple and easy filter that works so well for me? I'm very curious.

[+fizzymagic]

I've said it before., this game isn't for everyone. If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead.

Translation: If you don't like geocaching the same way Mushtang does, don't let the door hit you an your way out. Take it or leave it.

 

But suggest any attempt to improve it, and you're imposing your will on everyone else.

 

Yeah, right. I get it now.

[+tozainamboku]

I've said it before, it wasn't like that at one time. I don't like the way things are headed because something I once enjoyed is disappearing. I reserve the right to be annoyed.

The game has changed. It has become much more popular among what I call urban cachers. These people simply enjoy finding caches. They don't believe that a cache has to bring you to a certain location that will "wow" you. The most important factor is how convenient the cache is to get to. Caches in parking lots (where there's plenty of parking) are much more convenient than hiking to cache or finding on in an historic area where you might still need to park some distance from the cache. Some of these urban cachers are into numbers and like having many convenient caches close to each other so they can find lots of caches in a short time. But many are simply people who don't have much time to go caching. So it's great when something shows up in the neighborhood that they can find on their lunch hour or while out running errands. And these people hide these kinds of cache because that is what they like to find.

 

Mushtang, sbell111, and others are trying to point out that there are many people who actually like having a deluge of urban micros that might not be in the most interesting places. Any solution that tries to eliminate these caches is basically telling the urban cachers you don't like the way they are playing the game and asking them to leave. Mushtang and sbell111 are trying to point out the since the game has changed, you should be looking for ways to be able to keep enjoying it. One way is to take a few minutes to decide which caches would more likely be fun to do. There may be no perfect method. You won't eliminate all lame caches and you will likely skip some caches that you wouldn't find lame. But you can really increase the chances of having a fun experience. I tend to look for anything that I've loaded in my GPS. When I start to to hit a lot of caches that aren't fun, I'll either stop caching for the day or start to be more selective. It's pretty easy to see that a cache is in a parking lot at the mall and keep driving to the next one which might be in a park or along a greenbelt. In fact, I can often tell this by looking at the map on my GPS unit. It really isn't hard to be a bit selective in order to have more fun.

[+TrailGators]

I've said it before, it wasn't like that at one time. I don't like the way things are headed because something I once enjoyed is disappearing. I reserve the right to be annoyed.

The game has changed. It has become much more popular among what I call urban cachers. These people simply enjoy finding caches. They don't believe that a cache has to bring you to a certain location that will "wow" you. The most important factor is how convenient the cache is to get to. Caches in parking lots (where there's plenty of parking) are much more convenient than hiking to cache or finding on in an historic area where you might still need to park some distance from the cache. Some of these urban cachers are into numbers and like having many convenient caches close to each other so they can find lots of caches in a short time. But many are simply people who don't have much time to go caching. So it's great when something shows up in the neighborhood that they can find on their lunch hour or while out running errands. And these people hide these kinds of cache because that is what they like to find.

 

Mushtang, sbell111, and others are trying to point out that there are many people who actually like having a deluge of urban micros that might not be in the most interesting places. Any solution that tries to eliminate these caches is basically telling the urban cachers you don't like the way they are playing the game and asking them to leave. Mushtang and sbell111 are trying to point out the since the game has changed, you should be looking for ways to be able to keep enjoying it. One way is to take a few minutes to decide which caches would more likely be fun to do. There may be no perfect method. You won't eliminate all lame caches and you will likely skip some caches that you wouldn't find lame. But you can really increase the chances of having a fun experience. I tend to look for anything that I've loaded in my GPS. When I start to to hit a lot of caches that aren't fun, I'll either stop caching for the day or start to be more selective. It's pretty easy to see that a cache is in a parking lot at the mall and keep driving to the next one which might be in a park or along a greenbelt. In fact, I can often tell this by looking at the map on my GPS unit. It really isn't hard to be a bit selective in order to have more fun.

This is exactly what has happened. The days of loading up and heading out are over when it comes to urban caches. It's like playing Russian Roulette if you do it. There are some areas that put 3-4 bullets in the gun. So I've given up on urbans unless I know the hider or the cache is in an urban park. It would be nice if there was an attribute like "good for the numbers" that these people could use and we could also use to filter these out. Then we might be able to just head out like we used to. Being able to ignore all the caches from certain cachers is another win-win solution. A win-win solution is what we really need. Edited July 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[Mushtang]

I've said it before., this game isn't for everyone. If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead.

Translation: If you don't like geocaching the same way Mushtang does, don't let the door hit you an your way out. Take it or leave it.

 

But suggest any attempt to improve it, and you're imposing your will on everyone else.

 

Yeah, right. I get it now.

Your translator is busted.

 

He'd said earlier that he's gone out of town before and because he didn't know how to pick the good caches, he decided to go hiking and not try to geocache. He didn't like the game, and it had nothing to do with how Mushtang likes it or not.

 

And if you'd read a little bit closer, you'd see that my message was just the opposite of "take it or leave it". My suggestion was offering a way to take it and enjoy it, in a way that is different than I take it. I actually gave him a method to play the game in a way that was a lot closer to what he likes than what he's implying that he's stuck with. It was a way he could improve the game for himself, without reducing the amount of fun other people could have.

 

However, if he doesn't want to try to improve the game for himself, and he's decided to give up and not play while he's out of town, then I see that as a valid option too. I wouldn't want to force my suggestion on him or anyone else.

 

Hence, "If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead."

 

That's right. Do you get it now?

[Mushtang]

Mushtang, sbell111, and others are trying to point out that there are many people who actually like having a deluge of urban micros that might not be in the most interesting places. Any solution that tries to eliminate these caches is basically telling the urban cachers you don't like the way they are playing the game and asking them to leave. Mushtang and sbell111 are trying to point out the since the game has changed, you should be looking for ways to be able to keep enjoying it. One way is to take a few minutes to decide which caches would more likely be fun to do. There may be no perfect method. You won't eliminate all lame caches and you will likely skip some caches that you wouldn't find lame. But you can really increase the chances of having a fun experience. I tend to look for anything that I've loaded in my GPS. When I start to to hit a lot of caches that aren't fun, I'll either stop caching for the day or start to be more selective. It's pretty easy to see that a cache is in a parking lot at the mall and keep driving to the next one which might be in a park or along a greenbelt. In fact, I can often tell this by looking at the map on my GPS unit. It really isn't hard to be a bit selective in order to have more fun.

See? Mr. T gets it.

 

I pity the fool that thinks he still can't enjoy the game the way it used to be played.

 

(edit: speeling errer)

Edited July 22, 2007 by Mushtang

[+Renegade Knight]

... Do you even know what I consider lame?...

 

You didn't ask me but I'd say it's like Porn. I couldn't define it but I'll bet I could recognize it if I saw it and think to myself. "Man CR sure would think this cache sucks."

[+KBI]

I've said it before, this game isn't for everyone. If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead.

Translation: If you don't like geocaching the same way Mushtang does, don't let the door hit you an your way out. Take it or leave it.

Mushtang can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe he was inviting Briansnat to leave. Quite the contrary – it is Briansnat himself who seems to be lamenting the very existence of those whose caching preferences differ from his own. Mushtang actually appears to be quite happy to coexist with Briansnat – and anyone else who has different likes. Mushtang (and I, and others) are trying to help Briansnat find a way to either enjoy, or at least conveniently avoid, those geocaches Briansnat prefers not to be bothered with.

 

Are YOU happy to tolerate the existence of, and accept the activities of, those who don’t live up to your minimum required level of entertainment, Fizzy? Are YOU happy to tolerate the existence of, and accept the activities of, those who are happiest when they are hiding and finding easy urban micros and running up their numbers? If not, do you have any contact-from-the-exitdoor advice for those cache hiders with whom you would rather not share YOUR game?

 

Mushtang is right: Your translator is broken. I hope it's still under warranty.

 

... But suggest any attempt to improve it, and you're imposing your will on everyone else.

You are more correct than you realize. If by “improve” you mean “remake the game more to the liking of people like Fizzymagic, Briansnat, Trailgators, CR and CR,” then yes, “imposing your will on others” is a perfect way to put it.

 

Exercising a preference for interesting, creative or challenging hides is a perfectly valid way to play. Exercising a preference for quick and easy caches while running up one’s numbers is also a perfectly valid way to play. Each style can peacefully coexist alongside the other. For someone in the first group to suggest that a reduction in the activities of the second group would be an “improvement” is arrogant, elitist and selfish, and would make just as little sense if the suggestion were made the other way around. What if the “numbers crunchers” of the second group tried to tell you that your style of caching is bad for the game, and that a reduction of your type of caching would be an “improvement?” Would you not feel that they were “imposing their will” upon YOU, Fizzy?

[+Renegade Knight]

...I've said it before, it wasn't like that at one time. I don't like the way things are headed because something I once enjoyed is disappearing. I reserve the right to be annoyed.

 

I liked your library analogy. Here is the deal though. The reasons that there were classics to stock your library with is that 600 years of literary evolution has taken place and only the classics from the past survived. Meanwhile there are classics out there today hidden in the midst of all the crappy literature. Some of those classics are even romances. The Library of Congress is arguably the best library on earth. But I'd lay odds it's got more crap in it than any other library you could find.

 

Geocaching through is a pyramid. Natural Wonders are few. National Landmarks more common but still few. Regional Landmarks more common still, but still not that common overall. Local landmarks are starting to be common, scenic locations that may or may not be know...and so on. The more caches the more it has to move down the pyramic to the bottom wish is the last known non saturated spots of not even a parking lot's worth of interesting points.

 

Geocaching for those who don't wish to take the time to find caches higher up the pyramid (or at least there version of it) is doomed out of necessity.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+TrailGators]

Mushtang, sbell111, and others are trying to point out that there are many people who actually like having a deluge of urban micros that might not be in the most interesting places. Any solution that tries to eliminate these caches is basically telling the urban cachers you don't like the way they are playing the game and asking them to leave. Mushtang and sbell111 are trying to point out the since the game has changed, you should be looking for ways to be able to keep enjoying it. One way is to take a few minutes to decide which caches would more likely be fun to do. There may be no perfect method. You won't eliminate all lame caches and you will likely skip some caches that you wouldn't find lame. But you can really increase the chances of having a fun experience. I tend to look for anything that I've loaded in my GPS. When I start to to hit a lot of caches that aren't fun, I'll either stop caching for the day or start to be more selective. It's pretty easy to see that a cache is in a parking lot at the mall and keep driving to the next one which might be in a park or along a greenbelt. In fact, I can often tell this by looking at the map on my GPS unit. It really isn't hard to be a bit selective in order to have more fun.

See? Mr. T gets it.

I pitty the fool that thinks he still can't enjoy the game the way it used to be played.

I pity the people that can't spell. Anyhow, NOW I do what Mr. T does for urbans, but I do it using the hybrid aerial maps on the website. Whenever I spot a cache that I probably won't like, I hit the ignore button. Now it is gone forever! But I didn't USED TO have to cache this way.

[+Renegade Knight]

... I pity the people that can't spell. Anyhow, NOW I do what Mr. T does for urbans, but I do it using the hybrid aerial maps on the website. Whenever I spot a cache that I probably won't like, I hit the ignore button. Now it is gone forever! But I didn't USED TO have to cache this way.

 

That's right. In the old days, you were just lucky to have a cache to find at all. Rusty cookie cans, gladware and all.

 

Navicache at least here resembles the old day. There is no rush, not even by the folks who don't like the trends here. As much as they don't like how things are here, they don't want to give up what they do like here to visit yesteryear.

[Mushtang]

Mushtang, sbell111, and others are trying to point out that there are many people who actually like having a deluge of urban micros that might not be in the most interesting places. Any solution that tries to eliminate these caches is basically telling the urban cachers you don't like the way they are playing the game and asking them to leave. Mushtang and sbell111 are trying to point out the since the game has changed, you should be looking for ways to be able to keep enjoying it. One way is to take a few minutes to decide which caches would more likely be fun to do. There may be no perfect method. You won't eliminate all lame caches and you will likely skip some caches that you wouldn't find lame. But you can really increase the chances of having a fun experience. I tend to look for anything that I've loaded in my GPS. When I start to to hit a lot of caches that aren't fun, I'll either stop caching for the day or start to be more selective. It's pretty easy to see that a cache is in a parking lot at the mall and keep driving to the next one which might be in a park or along a greenbelt. In fact, I can often tell this by looking at the map on my GPS unit. It really isn't hard to be a bit selective in order to have more fun.

See? Mr. T gets it.

I pitty the fool that thinks he still can't enjoy the game the way it used to be played.

I pity the people that can't spell. Anyhow, NOW I do what Mr. T does for urbans, but I do it using the hybrid aerial maps on the website. Whenever I spot a cache that I probably won't like, I hit the ignore button. Now it is gone forever! But I didn't USED TO have to cache this way.

Ooh, thanks for pointing that out. I hate it when I see a mispelled word in a post. Especially "your" instead of "you're". I'll go change it.

 

Thanks again.

[+TrailGators]

Mushtang, sbell111, and others are trying to point out that there are many people who actually like having a deluge of urban micros that might not be in the most interesting places. Any solution that tries to eliminate these caches is basically telling the urban cachers you don't like the way they are playing the game and asking them to leave. Mushtang and sbell111 are trying to point out the since the game has changed, you should be looking for ways to be able to keep enjoying it. One way is to take a few minutes to decide which caches would more likely be fun to do. There may be no perfect method. You won't eliminate all lame caches and you will likely skip some caches that you wouldn't find lame. But you can really increase the chances of having a fun experience. I tend to look for anything that I've loaded in my GPS. When I start to to hit a lot of caches that aren't fun, I'll either stop caching for the day or start to be more selective. It's pretty easy to see that a cache is in a parking lot at the mall and keep driving to the next one which might be in a park or along a greenbelt. In fact, I can often tell this by looking at the map on my GPS unit. It really isn't hard to be a bit selective in order to have more fun.

See? Mr. T gets it.

I pitty the fool that thinks he still can't enjoy the game the way it used to be played.

I pity the people that can't spell. Anyhow, NOW I do what Mr. T does for urbans, but I do it using the hybrid aerial maps on the website. Whenever I spot a cache that I probably won't like, I hit the ignore button. Now it is gone forever! But I didn't USED TO have to cache this way.

Ooh, thanks for pointing that out. I hate it when I see a mispelled word in a post. Especially "your" instead of "you're". I'll go change it.

 

Thanks again.

I was joking with you.

[Mushtang]

I was joking with you.

That's cool, but my thanks was sincere. I generally find my own typos but when they get by I don't mind being corrected.

 

So you do take a few extra steps to avoid the caches you don't like, and apparently you're a more satisfied cacher. Do you recommend others try doing the same?

[+TrailGators]

I was joking with you.

That's cool, but my thanks was sincere. I generally find my own typos but when they get by I don't mind being corrected.

 

So you do take a few extra steps to avoid the caches you don't like, and apparently you're a more satisfied cacher. Do you recommend others try doing the same?

I am trying to come up with the easiest ultimate way to make caching spewless for myself. I'm all ears with anyone that has an idea that is more efficient than what I'm having to do now (but doesn't eliminate the really fun ones). I really like the way Waymarking is organized. I think if similar ideas were applied to geocaching, it would go a long way to letting people quickly customize their profiles to show only the types of caches they prefer. For example, I blew out all the McDonalds waymarks with one click and kept Best Kept Secrets, cool Historical spots and a few other cool categories. I think things can get better but it will take time and some good ideas! Edited July 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[+Sileny Jizda]

We still haven't found a cache we didn't like. We have found a few that didn't make us feel comfortable. The one I felt the most uncomfortable with though entailed my wife essentially telling some midget muggles to pound sand when they asked what we were doing in a park walking around. She definatly needed some time off.

[+TrailGators]

We still haven't found a cache we didn't like. We have found a few that didn't make us feel comfortable. The one I felt the most uncomfortable with though entailed my wife essentially telling some midget muggles to pound sand when they asked what we were doing in a park walking around. She definatly needed some time off.

I haven't heard that "pound sand" expression since I lived back in the Midwest over 10 years ago. Edited July 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[+Sileny Jizda]

The funniest part is she is from the Czech Republic. I tell you the stuff she picks up at work makes me wonder. lol

[Mushtang]

I was joking with you.

That's cool, but my thanks was sincere. I generally find my own typos but when they get by I don't mind being corrected.

 

So you do take a few extra steps to avoid the caches you don't like, and apparently you're a more satisfied cacher. Do you recommend others try doing the same?

I am trying to come up with the easiest ultimate way to make caching spewless for myself. I'm all ears with anyone that has an idea that is more efficient than what I'm having to do now (but doesn't eliminate the really fun ones). I really like the way Waymarking is organized. I think if similar ideas were applied to geocaching, it would go a long way to letting people quickly customize their profiles to show only the types of caches they prefer. For example, I blew out all the McDonalds waymarks with one click and kept Best Kept Secrets, cool Historical spots and a few other cool categories. I think things can get better but it will take time and some good ideas!

So you would recommend your method, or you wouldn't recommend your method?

[+sbell111]

I've said it before, it wasn't like that at one time. I don't like the way things are headed because something I once enjoyed is disappearing. I reserve the right to be annoyed.

As far as I can tell, the only major difference between geocaching now and how it was when you and I started is that now there are a honking lot more caches out there to go look for. This has given us the ability to be more selective as to which caches to look for than we used to be. There used to be so few caches that if one was placed within 20 or so miles, we jumped in the car and went after it. So what if it wasn't a great cache. We had fun. Today, there are probably a hundred times more great caches placed within striking distance.

I've said it before., this game isn't for everyone. If it's not fun for you, and you prefer something else, then I'd agree that you should do that something else instead.

Translation: If you don't like geocaching the same way Mushtang does, don't let the door hit you an your way out. Take it or leave it.

 

But suggest any attempt to improve it, and you're imposing your will on everyone else.

 

Yeah, right. I get it now.

I rather doubt that you do.

 

Please point me to the suggestions to improve the game that have been given in this thread that would not negatively affect other cachers?

Edited July 22, 2007 by sbell111

[+briansnat]

You are more correct than you realize. If by “improve” you mean “remake the game more to the liking of people like Fizzymagic, Briansnat, Trailgators, CR and CR,” then yes, “imposing your will on others” is a perfect way to put it.

 

Remake the game? No, it's more like getting it back from the people who hijacked it.

 

They are free to pursue the game the way they enjoy it. I no longer am. So who is imposing their will?

[+sbell111]

You are more correct than you realize. If by “improve” you mean “remake the game more to the liking of people like Fizzymagic, Briansnat, Trailgators, CR and CR,” then yes, “imposing your will on others” is a perfect way to put it.

Remake the game? No, it's more like getting it back from the people who hijacked it.

 

They are free to pursue the game the way they enjoy it. I no longer am. So who is imposing their will?

I've seen no evidence that the game was ever hijacked. It's growth, however, has allowed for more people to have more options in how they wish to play it.

 

The caches that you like are still out there. In fact, they are more plentiful than ever. Each of us just needs to decide what we want out of this game and take the few quick and easy steps to obtain that. If that means that we can't run our PQs wide open or that we shouldn't take a few seconds to look at the cache page on our PDAs before we hit <goto>, so be it.

 

Edited to add that I wonder if our basic differences in this area are not hidden within our current forum sigs.

Edited July 22, 2007 by sbell111

[+KBI]

Please point me to the suggeestions to improve the game that have been given in this thread that would not negatively affect other cachers?

I sorta liked this one:

I think it's important to remember that cache owners hide the kinds of caches that they want to hide.

As long as a cache hide complies with the guidelines, satisfies the reviewers and is adequtely maintained, then the rest is up to the owner. It should be done the way the owner wants it done. If it entertains anybody during its existence, then it is, by definition, a successful Geocache. In fact, maybe that much is not even a requirement -- there are caches that have never been logged after a year or more of existence, but the mere possibility that someone might want to hunt them makes them worthwhile.

 

To whine and complain about the mere existence of someone else's guideline-compliant cache, one that other people are obviously enjoying, demonstrates personal lameness.

 

No person's caching preferences are any 'better' or any 'more correct' than anybody else's. To suggest otherwise is selfish, elitist and arrogant.

[+briansnat]

 

Please point me to the suggeestions to improve the game that have been given in this thread that would not negatively affect other cachers?

 

I have made the suggestion before, but not in this thread. It's quite simple. Raise the bar a little bit with the hides. Place them where the only reason to go there isn't just for the cache. These are all over the place. I've found caches in fascinating places in mall parking lots and guardrail caches with views that rival any you can find at the end of a 10 mile hike. But I'm not saying every cache has to be in a fascinating place or one with a splendid view. A retention basin turned duck pond, a quiet stream in the gully next to the Home Depot, a downtown pocket park are all the kinds of places that will likely appeal to more people than a feces strewn lot.

 

By putting a little thought into each hide the numbers hounds can still have their quickie finds and those with a more traditional view of the sport will be happy.

 

I realize that not every spot will appeal to every person. What I think is a fascinating historic marker might get a "Ho hum, so what?" from someone else. But at the least the chance that the spot will appeal to someone is greatly enhanced. I don't think anybody who is being honest with himself actually believes that the loading dock next to the dumpster behind the strip mall would be appealing to anybody, with the possible exception of a vagrant.

[+KBI]

You are more correct than you realize. If by “improve” you mean “remake the game more to the liking of people like Fizzymagic, Briansnat, Trailgators, CR and CR,” then yes, “imposing your will on others” is a perfect way to put it.

Remake the game? No, it's more like getting it back from the people who hijacked it.

Hijacked?

 

That's a strong word. It implies that someone has forcibly taken something away from you for their own use. Is there someone out there who is physically removing the types of caches you prefer to hunt, or actively blocking your access to them? Is there someone out there who is somehow forcing you to hunt the types of caches you would not normally choose to hunt?

 

They are free to pursue the game the way they enjoy it.

You mean the people who like easy micros? Yes, they are.

 

I no longer am.

Yes, you are. So far you have not convinced me otherwise.

 

So who is imposing their will?

The only evidence I've seen of anyone wanting to impose anything on anybody is the Complainers who keep suggesting that the game needs to be "improved" by somehow remaking it to fit better with the arbitrary preferences of, of course, the Complainers.

 

 

 

BTW, you never answered this:

By what reasoning do you conclude that you are entitled to a homework-free experience and an arbitrarily determined minimum acceptable level of entertainment, to be presented to you by your fellow amateur participants, in a game where every guideline-compliant cache hider, regardless of experience, cleverness or ability to comply with your preferences, is presumably welcome to play?

 

... or this:

You've been given an easy solution to your particular problem. It's not a perfect solution that will eliminate 100% of caches you wouldn't enjoy and leave only the ones you'd love, but life is like that. It seems to me that if you tried these suggestions you'd be happier at caching, but you're the only one that can make that decision.

It's a very poor solution.

Spending a few seconds scanning a cache page before hunting a cache is a very poor solution? What is so different about the way you and I cache that prevents you from employing this very simple and easy filter that works so well for me? I'm very curious.

[+KBI]

Please point me to the suggeestions to improve the game that have been given in this thread that would not negatively affect other cachers?

I have made the suggestion before, but not in this thread. It's quite simple. Raise the bar a little bit with the hides. Place them where the only reason to go there isn't just for the cache. These are all over the place. I've found caches in fascinating places in mall parking lots and guardrail caches with views that rival any you can find at the end of a 10 mile hike. But I'm not saying every cache has to be in a fascinating place or one with a splendid view. A retention basin turned duck pond, a quiet stream in the gully next to the Home Depot, a downtown pocket park are all the kinds of places that will likely appeal to more people than a feces strewn lot.

I've said it before: Exercising a preference for interesting, creative or challenging hides is a perfectly valid way to play. Exercising a preference for quick and easy caches while running up one’s numbers is ALSO a perfectly valid way to play. Each style can peacefully coexist alongside the other.

 

With which part of that do you disagree, Brian? Why must either group’s caching be “improved” just to satisfy the other? Aren’t there enough caches around to keep every preference satisfied without some folks telling others how they should play?

 

By putting a little thought into each hide the numbers hounds can still have their quickie finds and those with a more traditional view of the sport will be happy.

Translation: “People who are hiding and seeking caches based purely on their own quickie-based preferences should modify their behavior in ways that would be more pleasing to Briansnat.”

 

Turn your statement around the other way and see how it sounds, Brian:

 

"By putting a little thought into making their hides easier, more numerous and more access-convenient, the creativity hounds can still have their clever finds, and those with a more convenience- or numbers-concerned view of the sport will be happy."

 

I don't think anybody who is being honest with himself actually believes that the loading dock next to the dumpster behind the strip mall would be appealing to anybody, with the possible exception of a vagrant.

It doesn’t matter what you, I, or anyone else "believes." The logs for those types of caches speak for themselves. There are many such caches, and they get found and logged all the time. I have seen no evidence in any of the logs I’ve ever read to suggest that the finders of those caches had guns to their heads, were all vagrants, or were otherwise forced, confused or insane. Some logs express blandness, but many others express thanks.

 

As difficult as it is for you to "believe," those folks simply have a partiality for how they play the game that is different from yours.

 

The “nobody likes easy micros in non-scenic places” argument has been tried before, and it failed in face of the facts then, too. Those caches are so common because they are so popular. Your beef is with the folks who clamor for them, people whose preferences are obviously different from yours. Why begrudge them their fun? Why not just drive right on past that loading dock next to the dumpster behind the strip mall, and move on to something that sounds better to you?

[Mushtang]

You are more correct than you realize. If by “improve” you mean “remake the game more to the liking of people like Fizzymagic, Briansnat, Trailgators, CR and CR,” then yes, “imposing your will on others” is a perfect way to put it.

 

Remake the game? No, it's more like getting it back from the people who hijacked it.

 

They are free to pursue the game the way they enjoy it. I no longer am. So who is imposing their will?

YOU are imposing your will upon YOU. For some reason you're refusing to accept that you can still play the game the way you used to, with a few easy and quick modifications to your PQs.

 

Nobody else is trying to force you into anything, we're only trying to make suggestions that will help you out. If you don't want to accept it, that's okay too. But it's up to you to decide when to accept that the game is different and to adjust your methods to still play the game the way you want to.

[Mushtang]

I realize that not every spot will appeal to every person. What I think is a fascinating historic marker might get a "Ho hum, so what?" from someone else. But at the least the chance that the spot will appeal to someone is greatly enhanced. I don't think anybody who is being honest with himself actually believes that the loading dock next to the dumpster behind the strip mall would be appealing to anybody, with the possible exception of a vagrant.

There are times when such a cache would appeal to me, because the other option would be no cache at all.

 

I travel a lot for business, and often times am in a hotel with no rental car at my disposal. When I've got some free time after my meetings I'll fire up the GPS and go find whatever is within walking distance. I've found quite a few caches that you'd love, I've also found quite a few that you'd dislike. I've liked them all, since it's given me a reason to get out of the hotel and to play the geocaching game.

 

On several occasions there has only been one cache to find, and it's been in the catagory you seem to dislike. If this hider had been convinced by you (or others) that this hide was not acceptable, he wouldn't have hidden it. So I'm thankful that these types of caches exist, even if you're not. I'm not at all suggesting that all geocaches be of this variety. Nor am I suggesting that this is my favorite. I'd much prefer something more thrilling if I had the time and ability to drive out to a nice park or some other view. But if the choice is no cache at all, or a strip mall loading dock cache, I'll take the loading dock micro.

[+TrailGators]

I wouldn't have an issue with caches placed next to dumpsters, if that cache had a garbage dumpster attribute I could use to ignore every cache that was next to a garbage dumpster. Maybe there could be a "Loading dock" or a "Parking Lot" attributes too. We could have a "Vagrant's Sleep Here" attribute as well or maybe just "The Area smells like urine" attribute. I would really like a "Cache is in my yard" attribute. At any rate, if these types of attributes did exist (and were used) those that "enjoy" these types of locations could use them to look for these spots. Those that don't like these spots can use them to ignore these kinds of spots. It's called a win-win! In the meantime, would it be too much to ask to have these folks describe the area around their cache in the cache description to help us more quickly identify these spots? Maybe they could write something like "A quick cache and dash located in an empty lot behind Target. It might not smell very nice because some homeless people sometimes sleep here." Since a lot of people "enjoy" these types of areas, I'm sure they wouldn't mind including this info.

[+Renegade Knight]

You are more correct than you realize. If by “improve” you mean “remake the game more to the liking of people like Fizzymagic, Briansnat, Trailgators, CR and CR,” then yes, “imposing your will on others” is a perfect way to put it.

 

Remake the game? No, it's more like getting it back from the people who hijacked it.

 

They are free to pursue the game the way they enjoy it. I no longer am. So who is imposing their will?

 

You are free to persue caching the way you enjoy it. That you don't is not the fault of "They". In this case things are the way they are becaue of all of us. So, You are one of They anyway. Thats the way "They" work.