+ca_bear Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I currently use an eTrex Legend and an iQue 3600 (I love the size of the display on the iQue). When I get near the coordinates for a cache and start searching around, I've noticed that it is hard to get an accurate reading (direction) without walking away, and then walking back to the site. I was wondering if the higher-end handhelds with the electronic compass are any better than my current units at getting me closer to the exact coordinates. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Not at all. WAAS makes them more accurate. The compass ony gives them the ability to point (more or less) the right direction when you are standing still. Quote Link to comment
Glenn W Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Not more accurate, but it does make it easier to find caches. Keep in mind though that the compass must be manually calibrated frequently to be of much use. Not difficult, just annoying. Quote Link to comment
+maby Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I currently use an eTrex Legend and an iQue 3600 (I love the size of the display on the iQue). When I get near the coordinates for a cache and start searching around, I've noticed that it is hard to get an accurate reading (direction) without walking away, and then walking back to the site. I was wondering if the higher-end handhelds with the electronic compass are any better than my current units at getting me closer to the exact coordinates. Depends on what kind of accuracy you are referring to - as noted above, it is the quality of the receiver and the availability of WAAS which determines the accuracy of the positional reading. For direction, a GPS compass needs you to move in order to calculate the direction you are facing - which works fine for navigational purposes while you are moving, but is a pain when you are standing still somewhere near a cache and looking around for it. I replaced a basic GPSr with a Vista Cx and I would not want to do without the compass now - its a bit tempramental and you do need to learn its quirks, but once you do you will really value it on the last ten yards to the cache. I find it's particularly useful when you have a cache under heavy tree cover or hidden down a ditch where the GPS signal is poor and hence the accuracy reduced. You can walk around the site finding locations with good GPS coverage and let the electronic compass give you bearings to the cache. Project two or three bearings to the point where they cross and X marks the spot... Martin Quote Link to comment
+PFF Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hi, ca_bear, I started hunting government benchmark disks in late 2004, using an IQue-3600. It was very satisfactory, and I was very successful. The display was not good at close range, so I developed the technique of reading the Lat/Long figures and moving around until they matched the published coordinates of my target. (I've described this in other threads, so I won't repeat it in the forum. However, I can forward specific info to you, if you wish.) About ten months ago, I purchased a Garmin 60cx, and I noticed some immediate improvements. *First, the "compass rose" display is very good for leading me to the target. *Second, the receiver is much "hotter" and it holds satellites better. The displayed accuracy generally is better than the IQue. *Third, I can operate away from the charging cradle for longer periods of time. Batter life is better, and (unlike the IQue) I can put in fresh batteries when needed. *Fourth, the unit is more rugged--having been designed as a handheld, vs. the IQue's expected use on the dashboard of a vehicle. *Fifth, I can download targets directly to the unit from MapSource. With the IQue, I was entering them manually. (Although I understand there is an upgrade to the IQue that allows the downloading of waypoints.) Even with the 60cx, I still use the "match the coordinates" technique when I get within 15 feet of a target. It's much less frustrating that watching the pointer flop back and forth as you attempt to pinpoint a location. But getting to the 15-foot point is easier with the 60cx. And let's face it, on those last 15 feet, your eyes and your brain are the best tools! My IQue-3600 is back on the dashboard, where Garmin intended it to be used. For a "road warrier" sales person like me, it's invaluable! And, as you mentioned, the size of the display is wonderful. I loaded my 60cx with street maps, instead of topos. That way, it serves as a back-up for the IQue-3600. (Hence, becoming a tax deduction!) I did not purchase the model with the electronic compass, prefering, instead, to use an inexpensive handheld compass with sighting slots for taking bearings. (I've never been a fan of trying to make one gadget do too many things.) (Sorry to ramble. I get excited when I find another IQue-3600 user! Kinda like driving a vintage automobile.) In summary, the IQue-3600 will do the job for you. I know several benchmark hunters who are using the 3600, and I suspect there are a number of cache hunters doing likewise. Yet, a newer handheld in the same price category will have advantages. Of the points I listed above, the most significant for me was the battery life. As the IQue battery ages, it has less and less capacity. Garmin has replaced my battery several times over the years. (It has not cost me anything except postage, plus the inconvenience of not having the unit for ten to 15 days.) So I'm thrilled to have the 60cx for working outside the vehicle for long periods of time. However, in February, Garmin installed a new battery in my 3600. So, if something happens to the 60cx, the IQue is ready to go walking! -Paul- Quote Link to comment
+ca_bear Posted March 30, 2007 Author Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly as I suspected, an electronic compass will help (even if only marginally) when I get close to the find, or am losing sat. reception. Here in Northern CA, the canopy can get pretty dense on the trails, and both of my units leave something to be desired in the sat. reception area. Are the newer units (specifically, the 60 csx and similar) really that much better in locking onto satellites? Getting a fix inside the house? C'mon. I guess I'll have to see it to believe it. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly as I suspected, an electronic compass will help (even if only marginally) when I get close to the find, ... When you get close to the cache the electronic compass will not help you. The bouncy pointer trick is due to the GPS being within it's own radius of error. That's not a compass issue. It's an accuracy/precision issue. Quote Link to comment
+trooperdjb Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly as I suspected, an electronic compass will help (even if only marginally) when I get close to the find, ... When you get close to the cache the electronic compass will not help you. The bouncy pointer trick is due to the GPS being within it's own radius of error. That's not a compass issue. It's an accuracy/precision issue. No but if you have the magnetic compass as on the 60 CSx it will help you. That doesn't depend on sat reception or having the unit moving to give a direction indication. Quote Link to comment
+cartographe Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Are the newer units (specifically, the 60 csx and similar) really that much better in locking onto satellites? Getting a fix inside the house? C'mon. I guess I'll have to see it to believe it. Not only do they lock better but they do it about 4-5 times faster, thanks to the new sirf chipset. Just as a quick example, my 60csx locks the satellites fasters in my living room than my garmin Legend outside with a clear sky! Quote Link to comment
+NightPilot Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I use a regular magnetic compass. The only use for the compass is to provide a display to tell you which way to walk to follow the bearing given by the GPS. The direction arrow on the GPS is worthless without a compass, and I don't even use it. I use the trip computer page,which displays bearing (direction to the cache), heading (the direction I'm moving), distance, and speed. Speed is only a sanity check. If it shows me walking at 100 mph, then I know it's gone insane, and is lying to me. If I match the bearing and heading, then I'm going directly to the cache. When I get to within a couple of hundred feet of the cache, where the bearing is pretty accurate, I use my magnetic compass to take a bearing, and pick out a landmark on that direction, and walk to it. If it's short of the destination, I take another bearing and pick out a landmark. As you get closer to the cache, the bearing becomes less reliable, because of inherent position error. Very near the cache, the bearing will bounce all around the compass, because of this error, which cannot be eliminated, because of the accuracy limitations of the GPS system. It's not designed to find a cache, but only to get near a destination which should be easily visible. Trying to match the numbers is an exercise in futility, because the position numbers constantly change, even if you're standing still. Looking for the waypoint before I get too close, using a compass to find the correct direction works better for me. Quote Link to comment
+Red90 Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 I started hunting government benchmark disks in late 2004, using an IQue-3600. It was very satisfactory, and I was very successful. The display was not good at close range, so I developed the technique of reading the Lat/Long figures and moving around until they matched the published coordinates of my target. Ummm, just so you know , there are a few iQue programs that can be used to provide a navigation screen. A whole lot easier. Quote Link to comment
+cartographe Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) The direction arrow on the GPS is worthless without a compass, and I don't even use it. Electronic compasses work just as good as traditional compasses and they don't get fooled by ferrous sources. Not only are the gps excellent for geocaching but I use them every day at work to find surveying monuments and I don't remember a day I couldn't find one! By the way, they are sometimes underground and I have to use the metal detector to find them, and no there's no need for a traditional compass anymore. Edited March 30, 2007 by cartographe Quote Link to comment
+maby Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly as I suspected, an electronic compass will help (even if only marginally) when I get close to the find, ... When you get close to the cache the electronic compass will not help you. The bouncy pointer trick is due to the GPS being within it's own radius of error. That's not a compass issue. It's an accuracy/precision issue. that's true, but does not take into account the way that geocaches tend to be hidden... GPS accuracy is almost totally a question of how many satellites the receiver can see. Caches are hidden and often in places where reception is bad. The way I use the electronic compass is to scout around the site finding the spots with best reception, standing still to let the receiver settle and then projecting the bearing pointer. We did one a few days ago - cache was down in a deep hollow with lots of tree cover - radius of error standing in the center was over twenty feet. Standing on the rim of the hollow I could find several spots with good reception including WAAS and reported errors of three or four feet. Projecting the bearing pointer from two or three of these spots gave us a marker on a dead tree and sure enough the cache was there... Martin Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly as I suspected, an electronic compass will help (even if only marginally) when I get close to the find, ... When you get close to the cache the electronic compass will not help you. The bouncy pointer trick is due to the GPS being within it's own radius of error. That's not a compass issue. It's an accuracy/precision issue. No but if you have the magnetic compass as on the 60 CSx it will help you. That doesn't depend on sat reception or having the unit moving to give a direction indication. Your GPS points you where to go based on knowing three things. Where you want to go. Where you are, and What direction you are facing. When you have a 15' error and are within 15' of the cache. Where you need to go to get to the waypoint bounces around due to that error. First the GPS think you are standing north of the waypoint, then east, then south, then sw, then ne, and so on. The pointer bounces around all over becasue the direction you need to go to get to the waypoint keeps changing. This won't change if you have an electronic compass because it's error driven. In other words since the pointer is bouncing around it doesn't matter if it's random since the GPS does know which way you are facing or if it bouces around while knowing which way you are facing. Either way it's bouncing around. The part of the equiation that changes due to an electronic compass is this. A normal GPS figures out which way you are facing by measuring your movement. It also assumes you are holding the GPS so it's pointing away from you. Using that it can tell you which way to go...as long as you are moving fast enough. I'm told about 1mph but that's just a guess. The electronic compass does that, but it can also use the magnetic field to figure out which way you are facing when you are standing still or moving too slow for a normal GPS to figure out which way you are facing. If you have no satalite reception, yes the GPS with a compass can still figure which way you are facing, but it can only guess youre location relative to the cache because it can't calculate your position or where you may have moved too. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly as I suspected, an electronic compass will help (even if only marginally) when I get close to the find, ... When you get close to the cache the electronic compass will not help you. The bouncy pointer trick is due to the GPS being within it's own radius of error. That's not a compass issue. It's an accuracy/precision issue. that's true, but does not take into account the way that geocaches tend to be hidden... GPS accuracy is almost totally a question of how many satellites the receiver can see. Caches are hidden and often in places where reception is bad. The way I use the electronic compass is to scout around the site finding the spots with best reception, standing still to let the receiver settle and then projecting the bearing pointer.... In your case you are using the GPS to take a bearing and triangulate the cache position to figure out where the cache may be before you get to the spot where the cache is located. I do the same thing with the pointer on my GPS. Just not while standing still. An electronic compass will let you do this while standing still. Just like you said, it's a good technique for coping with areas that have bad reception. You can do it with any GPS though. The main difference is about 3 steps as you start to move. Quote Link to comment
+PFF Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 (edited) Trying to match the numbers is an exercise in futility, because the position numbers constantly change, even if you're standing still. Hi, NightPilot, Actually, the numbers stabilize very well when I stand still for 30 seconds. I was pleasantly surprised, the first time I tried this. But, to be fair, I suspect this has a lot to do with the fact that my hunts are solo. No spouse, kids, or dogs to keep an eye on. I just move a little and study the unit, and move a little more. I might not be able to do this in a group. -Paul- Edited March 30, 2007 by PFF Quote Link to comment
+Night Stalker Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 I formerly used the Garmin 60CS with the electronic compass. I did not find it to be very accurate so when I decided to upgrade I bought the 60CX wihtout the electronic compass and save a couple of dollars. I have not noticed any decrease in accuracy without the electronic compass. In fact I have noticed an increase in accuracy due to using the new SirfIII chip. I carry a magnetic compass for the times when I need one. Quote Link to comment
+ca_bear Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share Posted March 31, 2007 OK,OK. So, Ive narrowed it down to this: I STILL want a unit with an electronic compass, and the SERFIII can help in areas with heavy cover. I'll try using the traingulation method that others are using when I get down close. Thanks for all of the help with this, everyone! Quote Link to comment
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