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lele2

Boundary Marker..?

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I found this "Boundary Marker" while we were finishing the final leg of the "In Their Honor" Series. I believe it is a Boundary Marker for the Forest Preserve of Cook County (F.P.O. Cook County) I can't seem to find any information on it. I have looked at the pictures of other types of benchmarks from the links on this forum and I find similiar looking ones. Is this a benchmark? Where do I find information about it? And does it qualify as a benchmark? And how would I log it? Here is a picture of it:[/[/size]] IMG_1487.jpg

Please email me with any information that might help in determining exactly what this is? thanks so much,

lele2

beeshat@comcast.net

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A boundary marker of any type would fall under the category of Cadastral Mark. It is not a benchmark, nor does it qualify as one. Additional information about the mark may be obtained (if it is public information) from the agency in charge of the Forest Preserve, or possibly the Cook County Surveyor.

- Kewaneh

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Can I add, however, that that is a cool mark for me to see. I've spent some time in the Cook County Forest Preserves, but have never seen a boundary marker like that. Usually what I see is a concrete post about four feet tall with "FPD" on it. I would say nice find! (Also, I like how they made the "B" out of a "1" and a "3".)

 

Also, if you are so inclined, you can go ahead and log it in the Recovered US Benchmarks category on Waymarking.com if you took the coordinates of it.

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A boundary marker of any type would fall under the category of Cadastral Mark. It is not a benchmark, nor does it qualify as one.

 

So then.

All Initial points of the PLSS that I just recovered and have recovered that ARE NGS benchmarks.

And are also Cadastral.

Are not really benchmarks?

 

There are many other BOUNDARY MARKS.

That are NGS as well as Cadastral.

 

And if surveyor's and surveys of a lesser accuracy are tied to them how is this possible?

 

If we are recovering these Benchmarks for Surveyors to tie to for high accuracy and if surveys of a lesser accuracy are using them for control I do not see why they are not benchmarks.

Just not a logable NGS benchmark.

 

I know we have been through this a lot but have since recovered more than one Initial point to make sure that most if not all are tied to NGS control.

 

I still have a lot of fun to do in learning how all the original marks tie to the modern day continuing work.

There are some really cool coincidences that are happening with the Newest of NGS marks and some of the Oldest.

 

What has been submitted we do not see yet, unless you work for NGS and have access to that data.

 

I am not nit picking but trying to clearly understand the answer to this question.

 

If the Mark is on Public Lands the information is Public.

At least here in this Public Land State.

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A boundary marker of any type would fall under the category of Cadastral Mark. It is not a benchmark, nor does it qualify as one. Additional information about the mark may be obtained (if it is public information) from the agency in charge of the Forest Preserve, or possibly the Cook County Surveyor.

- Kewaneh

Except that a fair number of state boundary markers (and even a few NYC boundary monuments) and almost all US-Canada International Boundary markers are in the NGS database. A fair amount of quality surveying was done as specified by the 1908 treaty of Washington and both horizontal and vertical control was tied into the national nets of Canada and the US.

 

Intertestingly, they are in the NGS net as horizontal control stations (which makes perfect sense) but vertical control was also done and level lines were run from established benchmarks along the entire boundary. These bench marks didn't seem to make it into the NGS database.

 

I wouldn't think you would consider these monuments "cadastral" since they were controlled by existing Coast & Geodetic Survey and Geodetic Survey of Canada stations, and the border in and of itself has little relevance in the laying out of property lines (unless you happen to live in a "line house", so called, which straddles the border).

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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There's nothing that says a mark can't serve for horizontal control, vertical control, and mark a boundary or property corner all at once, as shown by the examples people are posting.

 

But it is relatively uncommon, because the people concerned with one of those aspects when they put out a marker generally aren't involved in the other aspects.

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When survey marks of any type are set, they have an intended purpose. That purpose may be for horizontal positioning or for vertical positioning. Occasionally marks have a dual purpose, but usually when a mark is set, it has a singular purpose. There are exceptions to this, but they are just that: exceptions.

 

We use the term 'benchmark' in this forum loosly to describe both true benchmarks and triangulation stations. In the surveying and engineering fields, a triangulation station is NOT a benchmark. Both types of marks have a single intended purpose - true benchmarks define a vertical position and triangulation stations define a horizontal position - but that single purpose has not prevented them from getting additional, geodetic data attributed to them. Usually that additional data is not as accurate as the intended purpose data.

Except that a fair number of state boundary markers (and even a few NYC boundary monuments) and almost all US-Canada International Boundary markers are in the NGS database...

 

I wouldn't think you would consider these monuments "cadastral"...

Cadastral marks are another type of surveying mark that has an intended purpose - the definition of a land boundary area - usually for ownership, or other defined purpose-type boundary, such as a State boundary, park boundary or public right-of-way. Like triangulation stations, cadastral marks are NOT benchmarks. In most States, the framework for the cadastral system is the PLSS system, beginning with its Initial Point and working through its grid of Townships & Ranges. Of all of the hundreds of thousands of PLSS section corners set throughout this Nation, not one was ever designed or intended to be used as a benchmark. They are cadastral marks in their purest form. To the best of my knowledge, the NGS, and its preceeding agencies, are not, and have not been, in the habit of setting marks which are cadastral by design. (This does not however mean that they haven't ever set cadastal marks.) Their design was to measure the physical shape of the land surface, not a boundary.

 

That said, there is nothing preventing a PLSS or other Cadastral mark (or triangulation station or benchmark for that matter) from being used for more than it's intended purpose.

There's nothing that says a mark can't serve for horizontal control, vertical control, and mark a boundary or property corner all at once, as shown by the examples people are posting...

Hybrid points such as this DO exist, in rare instances. Some areas of the Country are more populated with these hybrids than others, but they are very much 'exceptions to the rule'. I have, many times as a surveyor, needed to set survey control points for a particular project. In the course of setting that control, I've found other marks set by other surveyors and/or agencies near or at the locations I've intended to use. If the mark is stable and suits my needs for control in the area, I've used them, for my purpose, sometimes not knowing (or even caring) what the original intended purpose was. More often than not, the original data attributed to that mark, and the additional data which I attribute to it, are never merged or mixed. Even rarer is that the additional data is publicly published. Such is the case with cadastral marks that are found in the NGS database.

So then.

All Initial points of the PLSS that I just recovered and have recovered that ARE NGS benchmarks.

And are also Cadastral.

Are not really benchmarks?

 

There are many other BOUNDARY MARKS.

That are NGS as well as Cadastral...

The NGS, as it is set up, will accept geodetic data for any survey mark from most any surveying or engineering company or agency, public or private, provided that geodetic data was established using proper proceedures. The type of mark is often inconsequential, like a brass disk, an aluminum tablet, or a chiseled square on a curb (although the setting does have consequence regarding the stability of the mark). Whether the mark was purpose-built as an NGS mark, a mark set by an agency other than the NGS, or a cadastral mark with no geodetic intentions, geodetic data can be established for that mark, and published in the NGS Bluebook (provided that data meets NGS requirements). The fact that there is different or newer data for a particular mark does not change the intended purpose of that mark. A PLSS section corner is a cadastral mark. Period. A PLSS section corner included in the NGS database is a cadastral mark with published geodetic attributes. While that geodetic data may be easier to obtain than the original data, it does not override, overwrite, or overpower the original data and purpose of the mark, it simply adds to it. Initial points are also cadastral by design, however they were originally established using geodetic triangulation principles. Geodetic principles were also used (and still are used) in determining bearings of PLSS section lines. By that, it is understandable that the initial points, and some PLSS corners, could be included in the NGS database, but that inclusion does not change them from what they are. Again, this is an exception rather than the rule.

...and the [united States] border in and of itself has little relevance in the laying out of property lines...

I would definately consider a National border a property line. It is the boundary of a National property, defining National ownership, and arguably the most important property line any Nation has. With that, the marks that define that line are cadastral marks by default.

 

- Kewaneh

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:) Thanks for anwering my question about the "Boundary Marker" I happened upon while caching. From the POSTS I have gathered this is a "Cadastral Marker" and however interesting it may be it is not a Benchmark and cannot be posted on the Bencharking page. With the information that this is a Cadastral Marker I looked up on the web further information; I could not find a place where I could search for this particular Boundary Marker and the information that is associated with it. Cadastral Markers are
Cadastre referring to a registry of lands. So actually Cadastral Surveying is surveying having to do with determining and defining land ownership and boundaries
. I looked closer at at the Map Viewer available on LSIS and really could not find any further information than I already knew: it is next to Fairmount Cemetery and possibly part of Spears Woods, although the marker did not seem to be in this area as indicated on the maps I've viewed. Unfortunately I "marked" the site about 15 paces away from the marker ~~ it was pouring rain and we just kept going. This "mark" will allow me to go back to the site and find the marker again and officially mark it with GPS and record it on Waymarking.com. ~~ thanks for that bit of information. I was surprised to know that the "B" is actually the numbers 1 & 3 and wonder why they would make these last 2 numbers appear as a letter? I also found a picture of the type of 'boundary markers" referred to by another 'cacher' - the stand-up type:Image-0029.png. I wonder if the type of Boundary Marker I found is of the type used before or after the one in the image?? I could not find any info on this.

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The Register is the GLO(GENERAL LAND OFFICE) now BLM.

Those records can be found here:

HOME- BLM GLO RECORDS

 

This pertains to Public Lands States only.

Make sure and see the NEW Survey Plats.

 

It does not contain ALL the records at this time.

 

But I did obtain the PATENTS to my Lands.

 

You next need to determine the (T)Township,(S)Section and ®Range.

Or the Original Patentee.

You can then use that criteria to search the records.

 

Thanks for the clearer definitions on the marks.

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:) Thanks for anwering my question about the "Boundary Marker" I happened upon while caching. From the POSTS I have gathered this is a "Cadastral Marker" and however interesting it may be it is not a Benchmark and cannot be posted on the Bencharking page. With the information that this is a Cadastral Marker I looked up on the web further information; I could not find a place where I could search for this particular Boundary Marker and the information that is associated with it. Cadastral Markers are

Cadastre referring to a registry of lands. So actually Cadastral Surveying is surveying having to do with determining and defining land ownership and boundaries
. I looked closer at at the Map Viewer available on LSIS and really could not find any further information than I already knew: it is next to Fairmount Cemetery and possibly part of Spears Woods, although the marker did not seem to be in this area as indicated on the maps I've viewed. Unfortunately I "marked" the site about 15 paces away from the marker ~~ it was pouring rain and we just kept going. This "mark" will allow me to go back to the site and find the marker again and officially mark it with GPS and record it on Waymarking.com. ~~ thanks for that bit of information. I was surprised to know that the "B" is actually the numbers 1 & 3 and wonder why they would make these last 2 numbers appear as a letter? I also found a picture of the type of 'boundary markers" referred to by another 'cacher' - the stand-up type:Image-0029.png. I wonder if the type of Boundary Marker I found is of the type used before or after the one in the image?? I could not find any info on this.

 

You might be able to get a copy of the survey associated with this monument at the appropriate registry of deeds. Look on the survey for corner # 122B (the surveyors who set the corner probably didn't have an alpa-numeric stamp set and had to improvise) For a look at one of the premier manufacturers of surveying monuments, go to www.berntsen.com

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If you know the Township and Range you can look here.

I spent a short time trying to find it but did not.

A deed in the area will give this info as well as the local County Courthouse.

 

WI INITIAL POINT

 

Illinois border at the boundary between Grant and Lafayette counties.

edit add location

Edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1

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Oddly enough, this http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=141741&hl= topic concerns another type marker I found just outside Fairmont cemetary. I wonder if they are related?

 

Sorry to wander OT, but I've been thinking about e-mailing someone to see if they know about it. Problem is, I'm not sure who to e-mail. The mark is in Cook County, so I thought about e-mailing them. But it is totally unclear as to who might have geodesy records at the County - Highway Department seems to be the best bet, but they don't have anything on their page about surveying.

 

Now since it is on Cook County Forest Preserve land, I thought about asking someone there, but there isn't really a good address to e-mail there, either. DuPage County, on the other hand, has a dedicated e-mail address for benchmark inquiries, but I'm not sure that they're involved at all with this marker.

 

Then there's the state - there's at least a dedicated individual. Or I could try the Illinois Professional Land Surveyors Association.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions? Please? :laughing:

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I had already checked out that page. Since this boundary maker is stated by others as PLSS that data on the website offshoot - "illinois pulic land surevey" is fee based:

 

Public Land Survey System boundaries in Illinois. State, county, township, range, section, and Indian Treaty boundaries are included. Individual sections are labeled with meridian, section, township, range, and county number designations. This data set is currently available from the Illinois State Geologic Survey for a fee, see the Distribution Information area of the metadata file. ISGS, 1984 (revised 1998

 

I have also used some of the data f rom this site in .shapefile format my ArcGIS program. I'm not quite sure how this would help. I'd just like to check on the marker and possibly be able to log it somewhere; however I have come up empty so far.

 

Your continuing ideas are greatly appreciated.!

 

lele2

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