Are These Commercial Caches? Why Or Why Not

[+PC Painter]

Then I look at the approver's responses, and they seem unwilling to do anything about it, when it's presented in this forum. Know what? I don't blame them. If they rewarded this behavior by archiving the cache mentioned, then it would only encourage a hoard of other people to do the same thing.

 

Gorak didn't ask to have those particular caches archived. Seems to me he was asking why the rules for approvals are not consistantly applied by all approvers.

Probably because they're human, any rule ever made has been interpreted differently by different people, some of them may be more militant about rules, where others are more "spirit" of the game type approves, and they're not like paid employees so PERHAPS some of them are more involved than others.

 

Those are just off the top of my head.

 

Oh...and it's pretty clear that Gorak isn't just simply asking a question about those caches. He made his question/point long ago in this thread. Now it just seems to be frustration that he's not getting his way in the thread. I can understand that...I think we've all reacted that way once or twice in our lives. Seems that is what's happening, though...when it'd be much more appropriate to simply report the caches as needing to be archived, if it's that important to him.

[+mtn-man]

If a cache was right at the front door or placed in a way that made me feel obligated to make a purchase to be there, then I would be uncomfortable and feel that the cache was commercial. I suspect that in most cases aspects such as those would not be apparent from the cache page.

You mean like this cache or this cache?

 

Edit: - fixed incorrect link

Actually, the question had nothing to do with "why the rules for approvals are not consistantly applied by all approvers". It was a rebuttal to a comment made by CarleenP as to whether commercial content is obvious on cache pages.

[+mtn-man]

So, let me see if I've got this straight.

If the cache hider is determined to have made an error or misjudgement in his/her cache description, the approver will - should he like this particular cacher - suggest a change in the description.

If the cacher hider is not well liked then the cache will be archived.

Where was it said that cachers get preferencial treatment?

Please quote that directly rather than make wild acusations.

 

If, in the extremely unlikely case that an approver should have made a mistake or error in judgement in approving a cache, then we just consider that water under the bridge or what has happened has happened and nothing is done.

No.

 

You have at least four choices.

1. Log a should be archived note.

2. Email your local reviewer.

3. Email the contact address.

4. Start a topic in the forums.

[Jeremy]

You have at least four choices.

1. Log a should be archived note.

2. Email your local reviewer.

3. Email the contact address.

4. Start a topic in the forums.

I added one. It's also the best order to do them in:

 

0. Contact the owner

1. Log a should be archived note.

2. Email your local reviewer.

3. Email the contact@geocaching.com address.

4. Start a topic in the forums.

[+Gorak]

You know, I've read this thread, and it seems to me that Gorak is really pissed (perhaps because one or more of his caches were rejected, that were similar to the ones he mentioned that were approved?), and will only complain about it in the forums.

You couldn't be further from the truth. I have not had any caches rejected for any reason. The caches I mentioned were only mentioned as examples in the context of the topic being discussed, which was the definition of a commercial cache and the consistent application of the guideline dealing with commercial caches. As I stated in one of my previous posts, it is not my intention to get those caches archived and having them archived at this point would not give me any great satisfaction.

 

I am puzzled, however, as to why you would quote Craggers in a reply directed towards me.

[+PC Painter]

You know, I've read this thread, and it seems to me that Gorak is really pissed (perhaps because one or more of his caches were rejected, that were similar to the ones he mentioned that were approved?), and will only complain about it in the forums.

You couldn't be further from the truth. I have not had any caches rejected for any reason. The caches I mentioned were only mentioned as examples in the context of the topic being discussed, which was the definition of a commercial cache and the consistent application of the guideline dealing with commercial caches. As I stated in one of my previous posts, it is not my intention to get those caches archived and having them archived at this point would not give me any great satisfaction.

 

I am puzzled, however, as to why you would quote Craggers in a reply directed towards me.

1) I stand corrected as to the question of whether or not you had caches like these turned down. You seemed pretty angry, and I was wondering if there was some major reason behind it. My bad.

 

2) I quoted him, because the conclusions he came to, mostly were derived from comments you made and the people who had responded (mostly reviewers)...and my response was a bit of a reply to his conclusions.

[+DeskJocky]

I too am not picking on Keystone. I've cached in a lot of areas of PA, and thus looked at a lot of caches...

 

Would a cache which states that a certian gas station has "reasonable" prices? Then also asks for a few bucks for a non-public museum?

 

Or how about another cache that requires you to go on a urban hike in a building? Any business in this building?

 

One outside Keystone's area...

How about buying a soda a supporting the local economy in this cache?

[craggers]

Where was it said that cachers get preferencial treatment?

Please quote that directly rather than make wild acusations.

 

Preferential? And that would be some cachers. It would serve no purpose in revealing the content of a PM sent to me some time ago and would also violate the rules of the forums - would it not?

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Although I could be wrong, my thought is that the intent of the non-commercial rule is to prevent the placement of caches that result in the owner or someone affiliated with the owner gaining financial benefit from the placement. In my case, I have often purchased gift certificates out of my own funds to "treat" first to finds and fellow cachers to Starbucks, Local Coffee Shops, etc.

 

At the moment, I have one cache (Bat-cache) that requires the finder to enter a commercial establishment to retrieve one of the cache prizes. There are plenty of other prizes in the cache (comics, figures, etc), but this one item was just too big to fit into the cache and is a keystone element for a cacher that wants a really, really cool rememberence of their cache find.

 

In this case, the prize cost me $30 and the place of business is doing me a favour by holding onto it until someone claims it. They do not market products of interest to Geocachers. The cache find does not make entering the establishment or purchasing anything a requirement in order to log or find the cache -- it is entirely in the hands of the finder. (over 20 folks have declined the prize)

 

I think the distinction is that my caches often have items of commercial value (gift certificates, prizes, books, etc), but they are not themselves commercial or intended to generate commercial activity. This is why I believe they are valid.

 

Also, I think that we have to view the spirit in which a cache is listed. The donut caches are examples of what I would call FUN. They are clear that they require you to "taste-test" a donut and have FUN doing so. Heck --- us Canadians REALLY, REALLY like donuts. We eat more than the entire US....that's not per capita....that's more donuts in TOTAL. Besides, after a hard day of caching, a nice coffee and donut is a great idea. Are they commercial? I think that they require the cacher to outlay some money -- but no more than it would cost for gas or supplies on a back-country trip. Plus, the listing is pretty clear about it.

 

I'd be pretty upset if the listing was vague and I ended up at a cache site where I was invited to a 30-minute presentation on vacation properties!

 

So, I guess my measure of commercial vs. non-commercial is one of intent, awareness, and personal involvment. I'd love to create a Mc-Cache in which all McToys are returned to a central McDonalds restaurant. "Log Entry: Left 100 items, took nothing, signed log" -- would that be a trash in, cache out event?

[+carleenp]

I too am not picking on Keystone.  I've cached in a lot of areas of PA, and thus looked at a lot of caches...

 

Would a cache which states that a certian gas station has "reasonable" prices?  Then also asks for a few bucks for a non-public museum?

 

Or how about another cache that requires you to go on a urban hike in a building?  Any business in this building?

 

One outside Keystone's area...

How about buying a soda a supporting the local economy in this cache?

The first one is on the line for me. I can see valid points to say that it either is or is not commercial. The second one does not mention any businesses that I see and so I don't view it as commercial. The third seems the most toward commercial to me since it specifically says to buy a soda to support the local economy. Yet since it does not state that entering the business is required to log the cache it also is reasonable for people to not define that as commercial.

 

I think the best thing that could come from this thread is to get some better ideas about what is and is not commercial and how to draw the line. Many situations can fall on the line and it would be next to impossible to get complete consistency with listing those. Hearing some thoughts about people's definitions of what is "commercial" is helpful. I think it can be particularly helpful for people placing caches, so that they can consider whether something might be viewed as commercial and strive to avoid the issue or ask their local reviewer about it.

 

Overall, I like the middle road approach where if a purchase is required or a situation that would seem like it is pushing a store or product because the location of the cache makes the person enter a store, then it is viewed as commercial. Pages that simply recommend some nearby eating places or gas stations that could be helpful don't really bother me. I figure that can be helpful for some people and cachers are free to log the cache without going to the business.

 

Of course there is plenty of room for disagreement on that since I could likely make a case for just about anything being either commercial or non-commercial. So in the end, there is likely no perfect answer to the issue. I doubt there is a way to make everyone happy. I am enjoying thinking about it though. It is much more fun to consider the definition of "commercial" as it relates to caching than the definition of "commercial" in a statute for work (which I had to do once)!

 

Anyway, perhaps the only real solution would be to think through all the possible situations and make a ton of rules defining "commercial." I don't see that as a great option either, since I am not a fan of increasing rules when an issue doesn't seem to be causing a lot of serious concerns and when new situations could constantly arise. That is why I think it is best that when there are concerns to follow the list that Mtn-Man and Jeremy posted. That can help address any issues where it appears that something was listed in error or should be reconsidered if changes were made to the cache page after listing.

Edited November 25, 2004 by carleenp

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

I agree.

 

Also, I think that a cache can have commercial elements or impact without itself being commercial. Park entrance fees may be involved (should be noted), you may need to pay for parking (urban caches), you might have to buy a GPSr (haha).

[+carleenp]

I agree.

 

Also, I think that a cache can have commercial elements or impact without itself being commercial. Park entrance fees may be involved (should be noted), you may need to pay for parking (urban caches), you might have to buy a GPSr (haha).

Yep! Technically I suppose caching itself is commercial because it promotes the purchase of a GPS. So obviously things can't be taken to an extreme!

 

Well, unless of course the listing services and such want to start giving us all free GPSRs!!!!

[craggers]

That is why I think it is best that when there are concerns to follow the list that Mtn-Man and Jeremy posted

 

And that is why the list is in my filing cabinet under G ( for guidelines, of course ).

[+mtn-man]

Where was it said that cachers get preferencial treatment?

Please quote that directly rather than make wild acusations.

 

Preferential? And that would be some cachers. It would serve no purpose in revealing the content of a PM sent to me some time ago and would also violate the rules of the forums - would it not?

Actually, if you want to post the content of a PM that is between you and the person who wrote it. I would encourage you to read the Groundspeak Forum Guidelines though. If you did you would realize that your post violated several of them.

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Keep on topic: Responses to a particular thread should be on-topic and pertain to the discussion. Users should use the New Topic button to start a new discussion which would otherwise be off-topic in the current thread. Threads that are off topic may be closed by the moderator.

Basically what you have said is that your post is not regarding commercial caches and but is rather simply a comment bashing the reviewers for the site. If you attempt to derail future topics by off-topic unsubstanciated rants you might be warned and loose your ability to post without having your posts reviewed by the moderators for some period of time before they are released to the board. If you would like to contribute to the topic that is fine. If you have issues with messages sent to you via PM please email the contact address.

[+mtn-man]

I too am not picking on Keystone.  I've cached in a lot of areas of PA, and thus looked at a lot of caches...

 

Would a cache which states that a certian gas station has "reasonable" prices?  Then also asks for a few bucks for a non-public museum?

 

Or how about another cache that requires you to go on a urban hike in a building?  Any business in this building?

 

One outside Keystone's area...

How about buying a soda a supporting the local economy in this cache?

I cannot imagine that the first cache was approved in its current form based on what I know about the reviewer.

 

There is one element here that needs to be addressed.

 

How does anyone know that any of these linked caches were not changed after they were listed on the site?

 

 

We seem to be quick to blame the reviewers here it seems.

[craggers]

If I were to be totally against commercial caches, would I then be in danger of being moderated for disrespecting small business owners or any business owners for that matter?

[+DeskJocky]

How does anyone know that any of these linked caches were not changed after they were listed on the site?

 

 

We seem to be quick to blame the reviewers here it seems.

I wasn't blaming any approver. I just wanted to provide a "mini-disclaimer" at the top of my post to say I wasn't approver bashing. Keystone does a great job between all the super fast approvals and the forum moderation (that often contain humor when fingers get smacked with a ruler)

 

As we talked about in chat this evening, these pages could be very easily been editted after being approved.

 

I was trying to provide examples so people can better understand "commerical" caches.

[+mtn-man]

Sorry DeskJockey. My post was not directed to you strictly. I should have been more clear with an explanation of my reasoning behind my post.

 

I quoted your post to get the point about the first cache you happened to link. It was a general comment about the way some of the topic has gone and was posted to give all something else to consider. The first one linked does surprise me too and is plainly commercial. I would bet it was edited after it was listed.

 

I definitely did not take your post as reviewer bashing.

[+mtn-man]

If I were to be totally against commercial caches, would I then be in danger of being moderated for disrespecting small business owners or any business owners for that matter?

No. You can add comments in the forums if you like... as long as they are on topic and conform to the forum guidelines linked at the top of every page.

[+carleenp]

Sorry DeskJockey.  My post was not directed to you strictly.  I should have been more clear with an explanation of my reasoning behind my post. 

 

I quoted your post to get the point about the first cache you happened to link.  It was a general comment about the way some of the topic has gone and was posted to give all something else to consider.  The first one linked does surprise me too and is plainly commercial.  I would bet it was edited after it was listed.

 

I definitely did not take your post as reviewer bashing.

I want to rephrase an earlier post. When I first read the first cache from Desk Jockey's post, I said I could see it as either commercial or non-commercial. Then Mtn-man posted that he thought it was clearly commercial and I thought "wow did I miss something?" So I re-read it and now think, that yes, it is closer to commercial. I somehow only read the gas station bit. But still, I could see where it would be reasonable for people to think it was OK. It doesn't require a purchase or donation, yet does come across as a little overboard on the advertising to me.

 

Who knows if the page was changed after listing? It very well could have been. It also could have just been not pondered during the process. The commercial stuff has not gotten raised as much as a big concern as other issues have. Or perhaps it didn't seem overly commercial to the reviewer. I could see any of those possibilities and am OK with that. In the end that doesn't matter to me. I figure that is the type of thing that illustrates the point that outside of making some kind of long list of complicated rules, that the thinking processes/opinions of people could reasonably differ. Then, if something becomes a concern, contacting the owner or reviewer (basically follow the list that Mtn-Man and Jeremy posted) would be the most helpful for getting the concern resolved.

 

So, with that in mind, is "advertising" businesses OK if they don't require going in to get the cache?" Or is that pushing it? I can see it either way, but lean toward less blatant "advertising." What about donations? I own a cache on Audubon land that asks for a donation from non-Audubon members on their web site, but they don't push that in any way and won't tell people that they have to donate to visit the site. When I placed that cache, I puposely did not mention donations on the cache page. Later, a person mentioned that a donation would be nice in a log and I posted a note saying that I did not put donations on the page because I felt that would make it a commercial cache, but that I was sure that that donations would be appreciated. Is that log commercial? Should I delete it? I don't have a firm opinion there. I am interested to see what people think.

Edited November 25, 2004 by carleenp

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

My thought is that your donation request is a request -- not a requirement. Also, you do not financially benefit. How can this be commercial? We have to be careful of going to silly extremes.... If I place a pin in my cache am I promoting the attraction or event it comes from? Is a Travel Bug commercial (they have to be purchased)? If we place a URL in the cache and that URL sells products (like www.geocaching.com), is it commercial?

 

My thought is that if the cache obligates the purchase of, or is created for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service, then it is commercial. If the site contains some item with a logo or is near a place of business, then it is non-commercial. Even then, some caches are fun and will require some commercial activity. I think that's okay as long as it's up-front and not a benefit to the person hiding the cache -- like the donut taste-test cache.

[+DeskJocky]

My thought is that your donation request is a request -- not a requirement. Also, you do not financially benefit. How can this be commercial? We have to be careful of going to silly extremes....

Lets say this... My friend is a car salesperson. I place his business cards in my cache with a $500 off on any new car written on back. I don't benefit financially from this cache, but my friend does...

 

Along this line, that is why it is frowned upon to put business cards in caches.

 

Say the Groundspeak store had a physical presence, would a cache placed right outeside (under 5 feet) its doors be commerical? Of course... In the parking lot 100 feet from the door? No...

[+carleenp]

My thought is that your donation request is a request -- not a requirement. Also, you do not financially benefit. How can this be commercial? We have to be careful of going to silly extremes.... If I place a pin in my cache am I promoting the attraction or event it comes from? Is a Travel Bug commercial (they have to be purchased)? If we place a URL in the cache and that URL sells products (like www.geocaching.com), is it commercial?

 

My thought is that if the cache obligates the purchase of, or is created for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service, then it is commercial. If the site contains some item with a logo or is near a place of business, then it is non-commercial. Even then, some caches are fun and will require some commercial activity. I think that's okay as long as it's up-front and not a benefit to the person hiding the cache -- like the donut taste-test cache.

Yeah, that was my thought too. Although I could see where if I put it on the actual cache page that it might have pushed the issue (I think it would matter how it was presented). I could see arguments for not mentioning it in a log though. I would likely personally disagree, but I can think of some reasonable arguments against it. That is just the darn lawyer in me coming out!

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Well, I think the business cards would count as commercial because they serve no other purpose than to promote the purchase of products. If I found them, I would probably not take one -- they wouldn't bother me though. If the cache contained nothing BUT business cards then I would contact the owner and advise them of my opinions.

 

That said, if I found a coupon for $500 off a new vehicle, I would take it if I was in the market for a new vehicle. Again, if that was the ONLY item in the cache it would be a problem.

 

Sometimes I get free concert tickets or event tickets where I cannot attend. I'd rather pop over to one of my caches on a maintenance run and drop them in. No harm, no foul.

 

My thoughts really center around whether the cache is abusing the purpose of the hunt to generate revenue for some person or business. If it is - I would rather not see it listed. If the purpose is to have fun and that involves some minor commercial activity (again, those yummy, yummy donuts come to mind) then I'm fine. Why ruin it for those of us that like donuts. I mean.... where's a donut lover to go! You guys have the Right to Bare(sic) Arms -- us Canadians get donuts! It's in our Charter of Freedoms!

 

...... um, sorry about that last part.....

[+carleenp]

I mean.... where's a donut lover to go! You guys have the Right to Bare(sic) Arms -- us Canadians get donuts! It's in our Charter of Freedoms!

 

...... um, sorry about that last part.....

[+fly46]

Commercialism is a very fine line here. Like was said before - I'm echoing this - INTENT plays a big roll in this.

 

I have one cache - A Stray Little Cache - that was hidden at Strayer University. The FTF prize was a mini Strayer Highlighter.

 

If you looked at just those two sentances above, chances are that someone might think it was a commercial cache. Nevermind the fact that my mother not only works there, but can watch the cache from her window if she so chooses. Or that it's one of the closest locations to the Nashville airport that anyone could put a cache at.