Split This Forum - Software And Websites?

[+twilliams]

There seems to be an unwieldy number of topics in this forum

11,399 topics in GPS Units and Software with 80k replies.

 

Would it make sense to you all to split it into

 

GPS Units

 

and

 

GPS Software and Websites

 

I don't know what it would take to do this, but there would seem to be a clear split between the two with some but not a lot of overlap. Plus once you've got your GPS gear I would think that it'd be nice for some to focus on all the Software and Websites without picking through the GPS hardware discussions.

 

So?

[+twilliams]

Plus we could ask that certain popular software and sites get pinned so you can also check the recent discussions on them...

 

I'm thinking, Cachemate, GSAK, MapSend, MapSource etc. etc.

[Neo_Geo]

Been here and done this thread many times. The concensus is that it should remain as is.

 

How many times do you hear, "What's the best software for my hardware?" "How come GSAK doesn't work with my 60CS?"

 

In which forum would you post such questions?

[+TotemLake]

Been here and done this thread many times. The concensus is that it should remain as is.

 

How many times do you hear, "What's the best software for my hardware?" "How come GSAK doesn't work with my 60CS?"

 

In which forum would you post such questions?

I'm in agreement with this assessment. There are too many variables that would require keeping the hardware and software forum alive, even if you did split some of the subjects out to just software and just hardware. Adding two more forums to the same subject would just cause confusion and frustration and probably wouldn't be nearly as actively supported as one would assume.

[tubemonkey]

How many times do you hear, "What's the best software for my hardware?" "How come GSAK doesn't work with my 60CS?"

 

In which forum would you post such questions?

Easy, in the Software Forum.

 

I'm not arguing that the forum be split, because I'm quite content to go with the flow. But splitting it isn't as difficult as it appears.

 

Any issues dealing with how a particular software program works on any model of GPSr could easily be handled in a Software Forum.

 

All issues dealing with GPSr features and firmware would be handled by the Hardware Forum.

[Neo_Geo]

Easy, in the Software Forum.

 

Any issues dealing with how a particular software program works on any model of GPSr could easily be handled in a Software Forum.

 

Easy for YOU to say... but couldn't the same question be just as easily handled in the hardware forum? Some would see it as software, others as hardware and some might just simply shy away not knowing which would be the proper forum in which to post their questions...

 

But the founding fathers were thinking ahead when they created this forum. Whether it's a software or a hardware issue, THIS would be THE ONE PLACE to post the question.

 

This topic has been hashed and rehashed again and again

[+TotemLake]

How many times do you hear, "What's the best software for my hardware?"  "How come GSAK doesn't work with my 60CS?" 

 

In which forum would you post such questions?

Easy, in the Software Forum.

 

I'm not arguing that the forum be split, because I'm quite content to go with the flow. But splitting it isn't as difficult as it appears.

 

Any issues dealing with how a particular software program works on any model of GPSr could easily be handled in a Software Forum.

 

All issues dealing with GPSr features and firmware would be handled by the Hardware Forum.

By your perception I could see that. Understanding you're not arguing for the split, let's just look at how your definition would work.

 

Perfect example in this case that I can see; to get Magellan's DirectRoute to work on qualified Magellan GPS receivers, you'd have to upgrade your firmware to 5.xx.

 

Now because it was posted in the software section as a DirectRoute (software not working on my GPS) problem, it now would have to be cross-posted in the hardware section or moved by the moderator. More work for the same result. Or, the answer is posted in the software section, but now you have the mix of hardware and software once again. Separation will only last for so long.

 

The two subjects comingle in one forum in a natural way. I used to work with a company that used to keep hardware engineers separated from software engineers. There was no cross-talk between the two groups that produced some interesting problems that a casual conversation could have avoided thus causing more work and many more meetings (sometimes heated) between the two to resolve the issues. When the two were comingled based on the projects they were working on, the product was released much faster, with fewer headaches and very creative solutions.

 

The idea of separation always looks good in theory, but in practice, it is rarely practical or creatively resolved.

Edited November 16, 2004 by TotemLake

[+as77]

There is no consensus about this, there is a controversy but TPTB resists the idea of splitting the forum so all efforts are in vain anyway. My opinion is that the split would make perfect sense. At least 90% of the threads are easily classified into either hardware or software. This classification is used in many other forums on the internet and it works quite well.

[tubemonkey]

Perfect example in this case that I can see; to get Magellan's DirectRoute to work on qualified Magellan GPS receivers, you'd have to upgrade your firmware to 5.xx.

Since I'm not advocating the split, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

 

All that needs to be said is that a firmware upgrade is needed. If the user is having a problem upgrading the firmware or that there's a conflict with the software and firmware, then it's a hardware issue.

 

The Software Forum should be dealing with the functionality of the program itself, and not how to get it to work in a particular piece of hardware. The forum should deal with how the software functions, its' pluses and minuses, how it compares with the competition, etc.

 

When the two were comingled based on the projects they were working on, the product was released much faster, with fewer headaches and very creative solutions.

 

Maybe we should have "project" forums where each forum deals with all issues (hardware, firmware, software) involving a particular series of GPS receivers -- SporTrak Forum, eTrex Forum, eTrex Color Forum, Meridian Forum, 60/76 Forum, eXplorist Forum, Palm OS Forum, etc

 

Just kidding. But you do have a very valid point here.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't have any problems separating the two (hardware & software). It's rather easy for me; but then, I wouldn't begin to presume how others would feel.

 

I'm quite happy with the current setup and have no difficulty passing over threads that involve units and software I'm not interested in.

[+twilliams]

At least 90% of the threads are easily classified into either hardware or software. This classification is used in many other forums on the internet and it works quite well.

Exactly.

 

Looking at the existing posts is perhaps the best way to evaluate the reality of whether a split would make sense or not. Not that overlap won't occasionally exist, but it does in all the forums. The idea that hypothetical topics would cause chaos just doesn't seem to be substantiated by actually looking at the last 200 or so topics...

 

Ok, it may never happen. But WOW it's sad that so many people are closed-minded about a completely reasonable idea.

[Neo_Geo]

At least 90% of the threads are easily classified into either hardware or software. This classification is used in many other forums on the internet and it works quite well.

...and the other 10%? Again - it leaves open the opportunity for confusion in some instances. It's been pointed out that that means admins must redirect the post to another forum and additional posts about how that message should've been posted there, or this message should've been posted somewhere else.

 

What's the problem with having the two combined? I think it works quite well that way IMHO.

[+TotemLake]

But WOW it's sad that so many people are closed-minded about a completely reasonable idea.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them close minded. It just means they have an opposing opinion on the subject. Just a little something to keep in mind when debating an issue.

[+as77]

...and the other 10%? Again - it leaves open the opportunity for confusion in some instances. It's been pointed out that that means admins must redirect the post to another forum and additional posts about how that message should've been posted there, or this message should've been posted somewhere else.

 

What's the problem with having the two combined? I think it works quite well that way IMHO.

Are you a perfectionist? 10% doesn't matter. The admins should not do anything about that part.

 

It would be just nicer and more logical if the two subjects were separated. If someone wants to know something about a menu option in GSAK, why does he have to sift through two dozen threads about what battery is the best for the 60cs. Also, with the two subjects being separated, threads would remain longer on the first page of the thread listing and this would reduce the occurrence of repeated threads.

[+twilliams]

But WOW it's sad that so many people are closed-minded about a completely reasonable idea.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them close minded. It just means they have an opposing opinion on the subject. Just a little something to keep in mind when debating an issue.

 

True! I was just commenting on the tone of some of the responses out the gate. They seemed to dismiss the idea out of hand... but maybe that's just my read.

 

That given, the positions I would suggest (debatable of course)

 

+of the entire list of forums this one is the second most bloated.

+it doesn't take really anymore time to read completely through two forums of half the size that it does one forum of this size.

+of the first several screenfuls of posts i've seen this looks like a good candidate for a clear split - based on the actual posts.. Not perfect but very close.

+forums should serve people that are quickly looking for information as well as people willing to read through a lot of them.

+non-bloated forums are easier to use and skim when they are focused on topic

+it's easier to add value, like pinning in two focused forums than one large one (too many pinned topics)

+tubemonkey has a great username

 

-adding another forum would take time and effort

-the payoff would be minimal to people that don't mind reading the whole forum as it is today

-there are a small percentage of posts which could/would/should span both forums

[tubemonkey]

Also, with the two subjects being separated, threads would remain longer on the first page of the thread listing and this would reduce the occurrence of repeated threads.

Valid point here.

 

What I find amazing are those members who chastise someone (usually a newbie) for launching a new thread instead of looking at a previous thread that's no longer on the first page or even if it was, has a title too ambiguous to know what it's even about.

 

Just like I pass over threads I'm not interested in, these old-timers should do the same when it comes to threads that ask the same questions over and over again. Why be so rude to a new member? Face it, new folks have no idea that the question was just asked two weeks before they joined and now resides on page four. How would they?

 

As long as forums continue to cover such large topic areas, then repeated questions are one of the natural consequences.

[tubemonkey]

+tubemonkey has a great username

thanx

[tubemonkey]

+it's easier to add value, like pinning in two focused forums than one large one (too many pinned topics)

You make some very good points; and I especially like the idea of pinning topics. For that matter, some of them should actually become new forums.

 

Some threads get so long, they become a bit difficult to navigate through and the person who originally launched it will shut it down and start anew -- GSAK, being a case in point.

 

Under Geocaching Related Topics, there are 5 forums listed. The GPS In Education Forum has a whopping total of 689 posts, the newest one from 3 days ago and the oldest from last March. GSAK alone could easily become a forum unto itself, considering the traffic it gets.

[+TotemLake]

Also, with the two subjects being separated, threads would remain longer on the first page of the thread listing and this would reduce the occurrence of repeated threads.

Valid point here.

 

(edited for brevity)

Actually, a look at this forum and this forum are good examples of how people don't pay attention to pinned topics even when it is in their face. And typically (this past couple of weeks being another good example) in the Getting Started forum where everybody had to start a new thread stating the same thing on the first page. Accidental duplicates notwithstanding.

 

What I find amazing are those members who chastise someone (usually a newbie) for launching a new thread instead of looking at a previous thread that's no longer on the first page or even if it was, has a title too ambiguous to know what it's even about.

 

It's human nature to be lazy. The chastisement (in my perception) comes from frustration that newbies believe they brought in a new subject without first trying to search or even at the very least, read the first page of listed threads even when the threads are relevant and not ambiguous. Which by the way, is irrelevant to this thread.

 

Just like I pass over threads I'm not interested in, these old-timers should do the same when it comes to threads that ask the same questions over and over again.

 

Ok... so in the same breath, why is it so difficult to keep this forum the same and just pass over what doesn't interest you in terms of software or hardware? And again, you're hijaacking the thread with a different gripe.

Edited November 17, 2004 by TotemLake

[+TotemLake]

Oh what the heck, I'll even include this forum and challenge you to take a moment and count how many california cache bombed threads were started within a week of each other. Pinned topics don't work as well as you think they do.

[+twilliams]

Oh what the heck, I'll even include this forum and challenge you to take a moment and count how many california cache bombed threads were started within a week of each other. Pinned topics don't work as well as you think they do.

If you're trying to prove that some people ignore pinned topics, fine. But so?

People misuse the forums... sure... are the forums good.. I'd say yes.

 

Are pinned topics good? I'd say yes again.

Pinned topics are useful, and in general I think the reason they exist to begin with is the same reason people (the majority) like using them. I think one of the strongest reasons is it's a regular place, that's *easy to find* to have continuing conversations on a topic which necessarily is going to span some longish amount of time.

 

Is is easier or more practical to have a greater number of pinned topics if this forum is split. and again I'd say yes.

 

-t-

 

It doesn't have to be perfect to be better.

Edited November 17, 2004 by twilliams

[+TotemLake]

Oh what the heck, I'll even include this forum and challenge you to take a moment and count how many california cache bombed threads were started within a week of each other. Pinned topics don't work as well as you think they do.

If you're trying to prove that some people ignore pinned topics, fine. But so?

People misuse the forums... sure... are the forums good.. I'd say yes.

 

Are pinned topics good? I'd say yes again.

Pinned topics are useful, and in general I think the reason they exist to begin with is the same reason people (the majority) like using them. I think one of the strongest reasons is it's a regular place, that's *easy to find* to have continuing conversations on a topic which necessarily is going to span some longish amount of time.

 

Is is easier or more practical to have a greater number of pinned topics if this forum is split. and again I'd say yes.

 

-t-

 

It doesn't have to be perfect to be better.

I have no problem with pinned topics but you missed the point. To use Pinned Topics as an argument for splitting the topics so that repeats don't happen is not a good one and it is proven in the other forums.

 

It doesn't have to be perfect to be better.

 

You left out the second half to that statement which I use to use all the time.

 

...but change doesn't mean it will be better than the original setup.

 

I'm not opposed to change, but before making a major change, these are the things you you have to look at:

• Will it work best for the majority and not for the few?
  
• How much confusion will reign thus causing comingling in the forums?
  
• How long before the threads have to be separated once again into their respective forums?
  
• The cost of maintenance to keep up with more forums.
  
• The cost of maintenance to routinely separate the threads into their respective forums?
  

And last but not least, the willingness of TPTB to take on those added headaches and time to manage these issues is acutely overlooked when this issue is raised.

 

Members only have to point and click and read or ignore.

 

Have you organized your My Documents folder lately? If not, look at why not. The effort is simple in comparison because TPTB will have to decide what moves and what stays, and there will be obvious discontent on the decision process and final outcome. If I was in that position, I'd be unwilling to take on one more thing that would ultimately cause grief to come my way. You can't please everybody, and that's been proven time and again in all the Groundspeak forums. I would focus on those things that would add benefit and not add grief.

[tubemonkey]

It's human nature to be lazy. The chastisement (in my perception) comes from frustration that newbies believe they brought in a new subject without first trying to search or even at the very least, read the first page of listed threads even when the threads are relevant and not ambiguous. Which by the way, is irrelevant to this thread.

Then ignore the thread. What's so difficult about that?

 

Are there abuses? Of course. There are always folks who just don't care and will launch a new thread on a topic that already has a very active thread starring them in the face.

 

That said, I've seen some responses to these repeat topics that link threads many months old. Certainly not on the first few pages, eh? Not everyone knows how to use the search feature, nor is it readily apparent to them that the option exists.

 

As to being off topic, this point is very much on topic since it deals with a very large and active general topic forum where topics drop off the front page in a couple of days. Splitting the forum would keep topics on the front page longer and generally reduce the number of repeat threads; thereby reducing the irritation it causes some members on this board.

 

Ok... so in the same breath, why is it so difficult to keep this forum the same and just pass over what doesn't interest you in terms of software or hardware? And again, you're hijaacking the thread with a different gripe.

 

I already said that several times; didn't I. In the same vain, folks who don't like repeat threads can also pass them by instead of jumping down the throat of a newbie; right?

 

And I'm not hijacking the thread, since this is one of the consequences of having such a large general topic forum.

 

I can see pros and cons on both sides of the issue. That said, I'm not pushing to see this forum split and I'll just continue to ignore threads I have no desire to get involved with.

[+TotemLake]

I know... just debating your points is all.

 

But the whining about people chastising newbies was not at all on topic to this thread.

Edited November 17, 2004 by TotemLake

[tubemonkey]

But the whining about people chastising newbies was not at all on topic to this thread.

Whining?

 

You get the last dig. I'm done debating this with you.

[gm100guy]

I think users that provide suport for there software here that you have to pay for should do it through they own web sites.

 

I can't have have a commercial cache so why can they get free support questions here?

 

That would reduce alot of threads here too.

 

[+TotemLake]

But the whining about people chastising newbies was not at all on topic to this thread.

Whining?

 

You get the last dig. I'm done debating this with you.

Dude! This post acknowledge a valid point and then went on a tangent that had nothing to do wtih the thread. It deserves it's own topic and didn't need to be added here. But there were statements that you made in it regarding this thread that deserved rebuttal. Continue on with the march, but don't go away mad.

[Neo_Geo]

...and the other 10%?  Again - it leaves open the opportunity for confusion in some instances.  It's been pointed out that that means admins must redirect the post to another forum and additional posts about how that message should've been posted there, or this message should've been posted somewhere else.

 

What's the problem with having the two combined?  I think it works quite well that way IMHO. 

Are you a perfectionist? 10% doesn't matter. The admins should not do anything about that part.

I might be a perfectionist! Wudduvit?

 

If 10% doesn't matter, then gimme 10% of your pay!!!

Lemme spend the night with your wife/girlfriend/S.O. 3 nights a month!

Try reporting only 90% of your income to the IRS this April.

 

Like you said - "IT DOESN'T MATTER!"

 

Try telling the newbie who falls in the 10% range that his problem doesn't matter...

Edited November 17, 2004 by Neo_Geo

[+twilliams]

...but change doesn't mean it will be better than the original setup.

 

I'm not opposed to change, but before making a major change, these are the things you you have to look at:

• 
   
  
• Will it work best for the majority and not for the few?
   
  
• How much confusion will reign thus causing comingling in the forums?
   
  
• How long before the threads have to be separated once again into their respective forums?
   
  
• The cost of maintenance to keep up with more forums.
   
  
• The cost of maintenance to routinely separate the threads into their respective forums?
   
  

And last but not least, the willingness of TPTB to take on those added headaches and time to manage these issues is acutely overlooked when this issue is raised.

 

Members only have to point and click and read or ignore.

 

Have you organized your My Documents folder lately? If not, look at why not. The effort is simple in comparison because TPTB will have to decide what moves and what stays, and there will be obvious discontent on the decision process and final outcome. If I was in that position, I'd be unwilling to take on one more thing that would ultimately cause grief to come my way. You can't please everybody, and that's been proven time and again in all the Groundspeak forums. I would focus on those things that would add benefit and not add grief.

 

First to reiterate some basic premises;

*this forum is bloated - it's tops (sans one) in #topics and replies

 

*this forum not focused - most of the actual (not hypothetical) data- recent topics can be easily split into two catagories hardware/firmware and software/websites

 

*this "forum" management software has tools (like pinning) which will work better with unbloated forums

 

I think basically you have three arguments that I assume are just based on opinion;

 

1) most people would prefer one forum (Will it work best for the majority)

 

I think unlikely. the "majority" of people are either - a) not willing don't have the time to filter a bloated forum, or willing to filter a bloated forum so it to them it would be painless to filter two instead of one. And so most would remain unaffected by or prefer multiple forums. In addition, many people are happy with their GPS hardware decision and want to focus on reading about the tools to make the most of it. Two forums let them spend most of the time in the one they care about and occasionally check the other.

 

2) mass confusion will reign ...seventh seal etc.etc. (How much confusion, and How long)

 

"confusion reigning" any *more* than it currently does is specious, and no proof is offered. Almost anyone who uses a computer most likely clearly knows the difference between software and hardware and which topic to use for which problem. In fact, the argument could be made that the defacto standard on other websites which newbies might encouter is to traditionally split software and hardware/firmware support. I think a single bloated forum is more likely to have confusion, and repeated posts because common topics (and their answers) get buried Soooo much faster with the intense traffic of a forum like this.

 

NOTE - this does not mean that people will stop and read the FAQs, search for previous posted topics, or read the titles of all the forums so they post to the right place. It does not solve that problem. It does not create that problem. You already have that problem to the extent that it's going to exist.

 

3) it costs too much (cost of maintenance to keep up with 2 forums; cost of maintenace to seperate threads)

 

the cost of maintenance of two forums vs. one? It's hard to take this seriously with some actual real-world example which would show why there would be that much more effort in two forums as opposed to one.. Actually I could see how there would be maintenance savings by having one. But I am sure there is some work (and I referenced that in my plus/minus list) to create the split and some continuing work to moderate them.

 

Anyway, if cost is the deciding factor, so be it, but it doesn't mean that it's better to push for a single forum.

 

You also threw out; "Have you organized your My Documents folder lately?"

 

Well I try to keep related information in appropriately named subfolders. When I don't get around to it for a while it gets to be a mess. That's why they have folders so I can organize my information by topic and when it gets too full create a subtopic.

Let me ask, do you store all your unrelated documents in a single folder?

 

(if your answer is yes, I will concede the argument, as it will be pointless)

Edited November 17, 2004 by twilliams

[+TotemLake]

Let me ask, do you store all your unrelated documents in a single folder?

 

(if your answer is yes, I will concede the argument, as it will be pointless)

 

 

I try not to, but I'm not always successful.

[+twilliams]

Let me ask, do you store all your unrelated documents in a single folder?

 

(if your answer is yes, I will concede the argument, as it will be pointless)

 

 

I try not to, but I'm not always successful.

LOL....

 

Cheers.

-t-