Climbing gear attribute

[ohrubberducky]

A while ago now I tried to set a series of geocaches to promote different hobbies of mine, being kayaking, cycling, hiking etc the aim was to place a geocache where the best form of travel to the cache would be the set activity. Ie a cache on an island so you would need to kayak/canoe to it. To cut a long story short the publisher told me off and gave me a long lecture on how you're not allowed to dictate how someone travels to a cache. Which is fair enough other than the silly exagerations that people could use a helicopter rather than hike to one!! (Because we all do that right!?)

 

Yet some attributes, such as 'boat needed' or ' climbing gear needed' seem to contradict that rule! I've desperately wanted to place a cache where you need to abseil or climb to it, but almost feel put off of getting the permission and work to place a cache if I'm going to get moaned at again. The simple fact is that in America abseiling to caches is probably more easy to come by than the UK, due to the amount of rules we have governing climbing here. I contacted a few land owners of small climbing areas, but they didn't actively promote climbing at their locations, just let it happen, so wasn't able to get permission. The only places I'm likely to gain permission is somewhere governed by the BMC for climbing. Cheddar Gorge being my ideal location and local, but you need to be a BMC member to climb there are far as I can see. However this also means you either need to be a member already or to join, and that's another rule broken where you would have to pay to access the cache.

 

All in all I'm struggling to see how this attribute and some others can be used without some bending of the rules? Or you need to own a cliff yourself :/ has anyone had any luck or can help me with this??

[+Bear and Ragged]

Whilst there is no precedent with previously published caches...

 

It seems strange that some of the 'Powertrails' in the US can use the Snowmobile attribute, especially as there is no snow in the area!

 

Surely the attribute is only a suggestion?

Or is it more about the way you've written the description, rather than the use of an attribute itself?

[ohrubberducky]

They may act as suggestions for safety but for abseiling I need that attribute to be the key one, much like scuba gear needed - you won't be able to do without it.

With my previous attempts the description probably was the downfall, yet with abseiling there is no way around the fact I need to dictate how someone gets that cache for their own safety.

So my main focus is on - is it wrong to place one you abseil to, If that means you need to be part of a club for climbing that area in the first place?

[+Happy Humphrey]

They may act as suggestions for safety but for abseiling I need that attribute to be the key one, much like scuba gear needed - you won't be able to do without it.

With my previous attempts the description probably was the downfall, yet with abseiling there is no way around the fact I need to dictate how someone gets that cache for their own safety.

So my main focus is on - is it wrong to place one you abseil to, If that means you need to be part of a club for climbing that area in the first place?

With very few exceptions, you can climb anywhere you like in the UK without needing to be a member of a club. The BMC don't generally "govern" climbing venues either, neither are there any rules governing climbing. It's regarded the same as walking.

 

As long as access is possible to the top or bottom of a cliff then you can climb up or abseil down as you see fit. Or fall off, if you prefer. Your choice.

 

There are some restrictions due to particular local conditions: these tend to be agreements with the RSPB mostly, to minimise disturbance to nesting birds at certain times of the year. I think that Cheddar Gorge has some unique seasonal restrictions due to the cliffs having a lot of loose rock and being very close to the road. There are also a few crags which have access restrictions due to landowner issues.

 

So unless the cliff is one of these rare cases, there's no need to worry about the reviewer refusing the cache just because you'd need to use climbing techniques to reach it. I can only imagine that there's something in your wording that makes the cache one with Additional Logging Requirements (ALR), which aren't allowed except in specific cases. So if you've said (for instance) that you'll delete logs unless you prove that you actually used climbing gear in some way, then it's likely to be refused. Generally you'd write the description to mention that the cache is up a cliff and you may need to climb or abseil, adding the "climbing gear" attribute, but you mustn't state that you HAVE to use climbing gear.

[ohrubberducky]

They may act as suggestions for safety but for abseiling I need that attribute to be the key one, much like scuba gear needed - you won't be able to do without it.

With my previous attempts the description probably was the downfall, yet with abseiling there is no way around the fact I need to dictate how someone gets that cache for their own safety.

So my main focus is on - is it wrong to place one you abseil to, If that means you need to be part of a club for climbing that area in the first place?

With very few exceptions, you can climb anywhere you like in the UK without needing to be a member of a club. The BMC don't generally "govern" climbing venues either, neither are there any rules governing climbing. It's regarded the same as walking.

 

As long as access is possible to the top or bottom of a cliff then you can climb up or abseil down as you see fit. Or fall off, if you prefer. Your choice.

 

There are some restrictions due to particular local conditions: these tend to be agreements with the RSPB mostly, to minimise disturbance to nesting birds at certain times of the year. I think that Cheddar Gorge has some unique seasonal restrictions due to the cliffs having a lot of loose rock and being very close to the road. There are also a few crags which have access restrictions due to landowner issues.

 

So unless the cliff is one of these rare cases, there's no need to worry about the reviewer refusing the cache just because you'd need to use climbing techniques to reach it. I can only imagine that there's something in your wording that makes the cache one with Additional Logging Requirements (ALR), which aren't allowed except in specific cases. So if you've said (for instance) that you'll delete logs unless you prove that you actually used climbing gear in some way, then it's likely to be refused. Generally you'd write the description to mention that the cache is up a cliff and you may need to climb or abseil, adding the "climbing gear" attribute, but you mustn't state that you HAVE to use climbing gear.

 

 

Brilliant exactly what I was after! Thank you. I think that Cheddar is indeed one of those rare areas as I remember there being laminated signs down at the base of the cliffs stating about it being a BMC climbing area last time I was there. I hadn't made a climbing one previously, just kayaking, hiking etc, but with the kayaking the very fact I had put kayak was my downfall rather than boat in that case.

Tricky thing I find is I'm actively putting people in the position of gaining a cache in a dangerous area, so realistically the use of ropes is a must, as I wouldn't want to be promoting the cache without the relevant safety gear, and would feel responsible if someone tried to free climb to grab it and injured themselves. I'll just have to be clever in the wording while still getting across the impracticality of gaining it without the gear.

 

But at least your words have inspired me into getting the ropes out and finding that little secluded ledge somewhere scenic now!

[+Amberel]

... I'll just have to be clever in the wording

I think you're making more of it than you need to. It sounds like your previous problem was caused not by the attribute at all, but by being too prescriptive. As others have said, all you have to avoid is making the use of climbing gear a requirement for logging the cache.

 

There are hundreds of climbing caches in the UK which don't have a problem with wording. You can describe the location, warn of the danger, describe what you used to set it, give it the climbing attribute, assign a high terrain rating and let people get on with it.

 

Rgds, Andy

[the_local_echo]

You don't have to be a BMC member to climb at Cheddar Gorge. You do, however, have to agree to a code of conduct and show that have third party liability insurance. The easiest way of showing this is to be a BMC member, but if you have a statement from your household insurance or someone else that you are covered, that is OK too. The insurance requirement is due to concerns that climbers may drop climbing equipment or loose rock onto the busy road below. There are other BMC owned areas such as Horseshoe Quarry in the Peak District which are open access for everyone.

 

There are geocaches on named climbs both in the UK and abroad - there is one on a belay ledge on Lliwedd in Snowdonia for instance.

Edited May 12, 2013 by the_local_echo

[+Mallah]

If you want a real example take a look at the description here.