Help buying units for a church camp

[turnmybassup]

Hey guys,

I have a bit of a unique set of questions for the group and I'm hoping I can phrase them in a way to get some good responses.

 

I work for a church camp in West Texas and we are interested in starting a geocaching program to our property for guests to use while they are here. In the future we hope to open it up to the general caching community, but we want to start by giving our guests another fun activity to do while they are at our site, as well as spread the interest of geocaching itself.

 

We have about 500 acres with hiking trails all around, so places to hide caches are plentiful. The goal as of now is to purchase 3 or 4 lower-end GPS units that will allow the guests to have decent access and success in caching, but then to own a higher end unit for planting and other things that our full time staff may need.

Myself and one other staff member have cached before/semi-regularly, and so we are coming at this from an informed level.

 

At this point, I have a couple of main questions that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on.

 

First, what kind of units would you recommend for us to rent out to the guests? We have identified our needs as:

- Needs to be accurate

- Needs to be very rugged and durable

- Very user-friendly and easy to operate

- Needs to be good enough to not frustrate first-timers

- Perhaps lockable so they cannot mess up our settings or the logs/waypoints (we intend on pre-loading the camps' caches to streamline the process so our users spend more time hunting and less time fiddling with settings, etc.)

Budget - $100-150 per unit

Possibilities - Garmin eTrex 10, Magellan 110 or GC

 

Second, what unit would you guys recommend for the nicer/planting unit that the camp would not rent out?

Some of our thoughts on this unit are:

- Very accurate for the planting of caches

- Backlit

- Durability and battery length not paramount

Budget - $100-300

Possibilities - Garmin Dakota 20, eTrex 20/30, Magellan 310/510

 

This unit will serve another purpose as well beyond geocaching. Our camp is also looking to start "Star Parties" as well, an event where we get telescopes out and show the guests some constellations and planets. Do GPS units ever have the capability of some semblance of star navigation or something like that? I don't really even know what I'm asking, but am hoping that someone reading this gets what i'm going for

 

Another thing for us to consider, are units in this price range actually any more accurate than the others?

 

Thanks so much for any info that you guys can give, it will be much appreciated!

[+Davequal]

All I have ever used is Garmin products. I would go for the eTrex's.

 

My friend has a magellan explorist gc... he likes it. It "seems" to be as good as my 20 (when it is working properly).....

[+splashy]

Probably Dakota, Etrex, Oregon

 

You need the models with the SD card slots, because if you rent them out and people mess up, they can't do so when the data is on the Sd

The Gps will read all data from the Sd like Maps, cache, waypoints.

 

Maybe you can rent some to try out and be aware. some screen are a bit small, but for average reader good visible.

[turnmybassup]

Thanks for the input, I appreciate your responses. I went and tried out both sets of devices at a Bass Pro Shop recently and I left there thinking that the Magellan Explorist 110 would be the ticket, but then came back and read reviews of them on here and it seems that folks are having all kinds of problems. I'm still not sure what route to go, but like I said I appreciate the info that you guys have given me!

[team tisri]

Probably Dakota, Etrex, Oregon

 

You need the models with the SD card slots, because if you rent them out and people mess up, they can't do so when the data is on the Sd

The Gps will read all data from the Sd like Maps, cache, waypoints.

 

Maybe you can rent some to try out and be aware. some screen are a bit small, but for average reader good visible.

 

Depending on who you're lending the units to, just make sure they come back with the SD cards still in them. It would be unfortunate if the SD cards went missing along the way.

[team tisri]

On the subject of star gazing, I'm far from being an Apple fanboy (I don't use a single Apple product) but have to admit being impressed by a friend's iPhone app that showed the stars. At the pub one evening he loaded the app and as soon as he got a GPS lock he could literally just hold the thing up in the sky and it showed the stars we could see, with the facility to touch any of them to find out what it was.

 

Given that evening the audience was a bunch of guys who had had a few beers our level of interest was limited to seeing things like Orion on the app and looking up and seeing Orion in the sky, but the level of detail this app had looked quite impressive.

 

If (like me) you'd rather not feed money to the Apple machine there are probably comparable products available for Android phones.

[ChefRd2000]

On the subject of star gazing, I'm far from being an Apple fanboy (I don't use a single Apple product) but have to admit being impressed by a friend's iPhone app that showed the stars. At the pub one evening he loaded the app and as soon as he got a GPS lock he could literally just hold the thing up in the sky and it showed the stars we could see, with the facility to touch any of them to find out what it was.

 

Given that evening the audience was a bunch of guys who had had a few beers our level of interest was limited to seeing things like Orion on the app and looking up and seeing Orion in the sky, but the level of detail this app had looked quite impressive.

 

If (like me) you'd rather not feed money to the Apple machine there are probably comparable products available for Android phones.

 

I use an android phone... But what's your hang up with apple? ( you tossed apple under the bus when nobody asked )

[team tisri]

On the subject of star gazing, I'm far from being an Apple fanboy (I don't use a single Apple product) but have to admit being impressed by a friend's iPhone app that showed the stars. At the pub one evening he loaded the app and as soon as he got a GPS lock he could literally just hold the thing up in the sky and it showed the stars we could see, with the facility to touch any of them to find out what it was.

 

Given that evening the audience was a bunch of guys who had had a few beers our level of interest was limited to seeing things like Orion on the app and looking up and seeing Orion in the sky, but the level of detail this app had looked quite impressive.

 

If (like me) you'd rather not feed money to the Apple machine there are probably comparable products available for Android phones.

 

I use an android phone... But what's your hang up with apple? ( you tossed apple under the bus when nobody asked )

 

I just don't want to be tied into the whole Apple mindset, where everything works as long as everything is Apple, and where I can do whatever I want with my device as long as Apple approves.

 

If you read the first sentence I made it clear that I was impressed by the iPhone app, even though I'm not a fan of Apple in general. I put that in to distinguish myself from the Apple fanboys who can't see any wrong with Apple and to whom every problem has a solution that starts with A and ends in e.

[+coggins]

Probably Dakota, Etrex, Oregon

 

You need the models with the SD card slots, because if you rent them out and people mess up, they can't do so when the data is on the Sd

The Gps will read all data from the Sd like Maps, cache, waypoints.

 

Maybe you can rent some to try out and be aware. some screen are a bit small, but for average reader good visible.

And with the Oregon you can use this at your "star parties": AstroToolbox

[turnmybassup]

Great call on the SD cards walking off, that would be a lot of work to have to constantly re-load and reconfigure all of those. I suppose people changing settings/etc. may just be a hazard that we have to deal with. I wonder if there is any way to contact Garmin/Magellan/DeLorme to get some type of software lock written in?

 

The star party idea won't really need much GPS functionality to it, and I have a planetarium app for my iphone which is pretty cool. I think one of my co-workers has the Droid version that is also pretty legit, so perhaps we'll knock that feature requirement off of the list for our GPS unit.

 

I'm meeting with our local group of cachers tomorrow night to get some direct input and advice, so hopefully we will have a better track on things from there!

[team tisri]

Great call on the SD cards walking off, that would be a lot of work to have to constantly re-load and reconfigure all of those. I suppose people changing settings/etc. may just be a hazard that we have to deal with. I wonder if there is any way to contact Garmin/Magellan/DeLorme to get some type of software lock written in?

 

The star party idea won't really need much GPS functionality to it, and I have a planetarium app for my iphone which is pretty cool. I think one of my co-workers has the Droid version that is also pretty legit, so perhaps we'll knock that feature requirement off of the list for our GPS unit.

 

I'm meeting with our local group of cachers tomorrow night to get some direct input and advice, so hopefully we will have a better track on things from there!

 

It should be pretty simple to deal with. If you're loaning a $100 device you take a $100 deposit before the person takes the device away. If they don't bring it back then they just bought it. If they bring it back minus batteries, SD card etc, they just bought what's left of it or they bought the missing parts, based on a list of charges they agree to when they book it out and where your charges include the cost of the replacement part, some administration, some allowance for the time to reload it, and a bit of a sting to discourage that sort of thing. So if they bring the $100 GPS unit back with the $5 memory card and $5 batteries missing it might cost them $20 for the missing card and $15 for the batteries.

 

Part of checking the GPS units back in will have to be a simple check that everything is present and correct, batteries are charged (and the same batteries that went out with it), the settings are as they should be for the next renter and so on. If you're renting a unit you'll have to accept some people may want it set up differently for their own reasons, whether that's an issue of preferring positions in a dd.ddddd format rather than dd mm.mmm, using kilometres rather than miles or rearranging the fields on the screens. If people are renting these units you have to expect them to use them, and using them may involve changing some of the settings.

 

I doubt you'll get any supplier to write you a software lock unless you're buying a whole stack of units. It's not worth their while to write a firmware customisation for the sake of a couple of dozen units, unless they consider it a useful feature to apply across every single unit.

[turnmybassup]

Great call on the SD cards walking off, that would be a lot of work to have to constantly re-load and reconfigure all of those. I suppose people changing settings/etc. may just be a hazard that we have to deal with. I wonder if there is any way to contact Garmin/Magellan/DeLorme to get some type of software lock written in?

 

The star party idea won't really need much GPS functionality to it, and I have a planetarium app for my iphone which is pretty cool. I think one of my co-workers has the Droid version that is also pretty legit, so perhaps we'll knock that feature requirement off of the list for our GPS unit.

 

I'm meeting with our local group of cachers tomorrow night to get some direct input and advice, so hopefully we will have a better track on things from there!

 

It should be pretty simple to deal with. If you're loaning a $100 device you take a $100 deposit before the person takes the device away. If they don't bring it back then they just bought it. If they bring it back minus batteries, SD card etc, they just bought what's left of it or they bought the missing parts, based on a list of charges they agree to when they book it out and where your charges include the cost of the replacement part, some administration, some allowance for the time to reload it, and a bit of a sting to discourage that sort of thing. So if they bring the $100 GPS unit back with the $5 memory card and $5 batteries missing it might cost them $20 for the missing card and $15 for the batteries.

 

Part of checking the GPS units back in will have to be a simple check that everything is present and correct, batteries are charged (and the same batteries that went out with it), the settings are as they should be for the next renter and so on. If you're renting a unit you'll have to accept some people may want it set up differently for their own reasons, whether that's an issue of preferring positions in a dd.ddddd format rather than dd mm.mmm, using kilometres rather than miles or rearranging the fields on the screens. If people are renting these units you have to expect them to use them, and using them may involve changing some of the settings.

 

I doubt you'll get any supplier to write you a software lock unless you're buying a whole stack of units. It's not worth their while to write a firmware customisation for the sake of a couple of dozen units, unless they consider it a useful feature to apply across every single unit.

 

My main thought on a company with a software lock was under the assumption that they may already have something like that written that could be coded in to units for a fee.

 

We will be requiring an ID from the users to make sure to have someone to designate as accountable, but we won't be charging for their use, as it will be an event option available to guest groups already using our facility (much like basketball courts, etc). I agree with you, there should be a more direct understanding associated with the check out procedure, that "motivates" people to not break or lose them.

 

I am not sure if the average guest will want to/know how to change settings themselves, but that is also an inconsequential problem for us to have to deal with in the long run, if they change things we can simply change them back; I just want to make sure they don't delete our pre-loaded coordinates and notes.

 

Our big picture is that someone will walk into the office, ask for a unit, be given a rundown of geocaching as an activity, how to use the unit they check out, and then they will be off caching for about 1-3 hours, then they return the unit and continue with their retreat. We will have all coordinates and notes pre-loaded as to cut down on initial startup time. I for one love the thrill of finding caches online and loading them before the actual hunt, but assuming most of these folks will have little to no experience in caching, making it as accessible as possible is the goal.

 

Thanks again for the discussion guys, I'm getting some great thoughts stirring with how to implement this activity more efficiently.

[team tisri]

Great call on the SD cards walking off, that would be a lot of work to have to constantly re-load and reconfigure all of those. I suppose people changing settings/etc. may just be a hazard that we have to deal with. I wonder if there is any way to contact Garmin/Magellan/DeLorme to get some type of software lock written in?

 

The star party idea won't really need much GPS functionality to it, and I have a planetarium app for my iphone which is pretty cool. I think one of my co-workers has the Droid version that is also pretty legit, so perhaps we'll knock that feature requirement off of the list for our GPS unit.

 

I'm meeting with our local group of cachers tomorrow night to get some direct input and advice, so hopefully we will have a better track on things from there!

 

It should be pretty simple to deal with. If you're loaning a $100 device you take a $100 deposit before the person takes the device away. If they don't bring it back then they just bought it. If they bring it back minus batteries, SD card etc, they just bought what's left of it or they bought the missing parts, based on a list of charges they agree to when they book it out and where your charges include the cost of the replacement part, some administration, some allowance for the time to reload it, and a bit of a sting to discourage that sort of thing. So if they bring the $100 GPS unit back with the $5 memory card and $5 batteries missing it might cost them $20 for the missing card and $15 for the batteries.

 

Part of checking the GPS units back in will have to be a simple check that everything is present and correct, batteries are charged (and the same batteries that went out with it), the settings are as they should be for the next renter and so on. If you're renting a unit you'll have to accept some people may want it set up differently for their own reasons, whether that's an issue of preferring positions in a dd.ddddd format rather than dd mm.mmm, using kilometres rather than miles or rearranging the fields on the screens. If people are renting these units you have to expect them to use them, and using them may involve changing some of the settings.

 

I doubt you'll get any supplier to write you a software lock unless you're buying a whole stack of units. It's not worth their while to write a firmware customisation for the sake of a couple of dozen units, unless they consider it a useful feature to apply across every single unit.

 

My main thought on a company with a software lock was under the assumption that they may already have something like that written that could be coded in to units for a fee.

 

We will be requiring an ID from the users to make sure to have someone to designate as accountable, but we won't be charging for their use, as it will be an event option available to guest groups already using our facility (much like basketball courts, etc). I agree with you, there should be a more direct understanding associated with the check out procedure, that "motivates" people to not break or lose them.

 

I am not sure if the average guest will want to/know how to change settings themselves, but that is also an inconsequential problem for us to have to deal with in the long run, if they change things we can simply change them back; I just want to make sure they don't delete our pre-loaded coordinates and notes.

 

Our big picture is that someone will walk into the office, ask for a unit, be given a rundown of geocaching as an activity, how to use the unit they check out, and then they will be off caching for about 1-3 hours, then they return the unit and continue with their retreat. We will have all coordinates and notes pre-loaded as to cut down on initial startup time. I for one love the thrill of finding caches online and loading them before the actual hunt, but assuming most of these folks will have little to no experience in caching, making it as accessible as possible is the goal.

 

Thanks again for the discussion guys, I'm getting some great thoughts stirring with how to implement this activity more efficiently.

 

Even if you're not charging for their use you might be well advised to take a cash deposit before letting them go. That way when they come back intact and complete the user gets the deposit back; if they come back missing SD cards or batteries the user gets a partial return and if they don't come back at all the user loses the deposit. If people have got a $100 deposit per unit left behind it will focus their mind on making sure the units are looked after.

 

If they delete pre-loaded coordinates and notes you'll need to upload them again. It only takes a moment and can easily be a part of the return check-in procedure. You'd need to do that kind of thing anyway if people have marked geocaches as found, updated multis to show the final coordinates etc.

[turnmybassup]

I will have to talk to my supervisors, but that is something that we will definitely discuss because I think you're right about the deposit.

 

I did not think about having to refresh the units every time either, so we will have to be sure and have the staff trained on that operation to make sure that it gets done every time. Thanks again, those are angles I had not considered yet!

[team tisri]

I will have to talk to my supervisors, but that is something that we will definitely discuss because I think you're right about the deposit.

 

I did not think about having to refresh the units every time either, so we will have to be sure and have the staff trained on that operation to make sure that it gets done every time. Thanks again, those are angles I had not considered yet!

 

Checking units in and out should be easy, if you make a note of what condition the unit is in and what accessories it has when it goes out, check the condition and accessories when it comes back in and make any deductions as necessary from the deposit. If you use rechargeable batteries you can always make sure the units have fully charged batteries when they go out, and it won't matter if someone does spend an hour in the cafe with the GPS switched on. (It beats sending a unit out showing 2/4 bars of battery power only to fade to nothing within an hour and the user have to come back for batteries).

 

Then refresh the data in them - delete trip data, field notes files, routes, track logs, waypoints etc and then upload everything from a standard file on the computer. Then just check things like the position format etc. At a push you could possibly even just do a factory reset and then upload the standard data into it, depending on how close the standard factory settings were to what you wanted.

[ChefRd2000]

Whatever you decide , please do let us know how it turns out. This is an interesting topic!

[turnmybassup]

Here is an update of what is going on.

We have purchased five of the Gramin eTrex 10's for our use. I'm thinking these will work well for what we are wanting and that they will be user friendly enough for anyone to start working them right away. We are working on the programming and curriculuum for them now, so it's all coming together!

[ChefRd2000]

I think the etrex 10 was a good choice. ( I would add screen protectors to them ) Will be interesting if you can teach them how to use it in a short time period.

[ChefRd2000]

One other thought: you might want to play with the reset option under SETUP / RESET: Reset trip data ,clear the track and factory settings. I don't think a factory reset here will delete your added waypoints or routes... So it might be a quick way to make sure the screens are all in original order.

[Wintertime]

( I would add screen protectors to them )

An excellent idea, ChefRd. Inexpensive static-cling or stick-on screen protectors from an office supply store would work just fine.

 

I'd also strongly recommend lanyards, and making sure that people use them. My eTrex 20 came with one, but I've heard of other recent eTrex buyers who didn't get one, and I don't see one mentioned in the "In the Box" part of Garmin's web page about the eTrex 10.

 

Patty

[team tisri]

One other thought: you might want to play with the reset option under SETUP / RESET: Reset trip data ,clear the track and factory settings. I don't think a factory reset here will delete your added waypoints or routes... So it might be a quick way to make sure the screens are all in original order.

 

I'd say it would make more sense to have a standard file with a view to resetting everything and then re-creating it. That way nobody gets the tail end of whatever the previous person coded into it. Otherwise if a user does manage to delete waypoints, delete a route, or redefine a route, the next user could end up with all sorts of unpredictable data.

[ChefRd2000]

One other thought: you might want to play with the reset option under SETUP / RESET: Reset trip data ,clear the track and factory settings. I don't think a factory reset here will delete your added waypoints or routes... So it might be a quick way to make sure the screens are all in original order.

 

I'd say it would make more sense to have a standard file with a view to resetting everything and then re-creating it. That way nobody gets the tail end of whatever the previous person coded into it. Otherwise if a user does manage to delete waypoints, delete a route, or redefine a route, the next user could end up with all sorts of unpredictable data.

 

I agree. Is there a way to do a complete wipe and reinstall easily ?

[ChefRd2000]

Simplest I guess would be to have all the data on a card, then wipe it each time and reload using Garmin's Basecamp program, which can be used to store all the 'default data'.

 

Would that factory reset all the screens, settings... Clear tracks and reset trip data?

[+coggins]

Simplest I guess would be to have all the data on a card, then wipe it each time and reload using Garmin's Basecamp program, which can be used to store all the 'default data'.

Data card, eTrex 10… do tell how that works.

[ChefRd2000]

Simplest I guess would be to have all the data on a card, then wipe it each time and reload using Garmin's Basecamp program, which can be used to store all the 'default data'.

 

Would that factory reset all the screens, settings... Clear tracks and reset trip data?

 

Don't think a factory reset is a good idea, as that would probably involve resetting things like autozoom, unit settings, position format etc, unless of course the original settings are perfectly acceptable??

 

It's Texas... So I think it would be ok. Worth a try anyway. So, Clear routes, tracks, trip data and factory reset on the device. ( and waypoints if you want) Then basecamp to refresh the info they put on them so it's all correct. And swap the batteries of course.

 

Ugh?!?

[ChefRd2000]

Or do you just do all reset items on the etrex, and check the batteries. Then give them a laminated map with the caches on it ( and trails )... The coords to those caches... And on the otherside, instructions on manually entering those coords and basic device instructions.

 

Easier for you... Not sure if this would be frustrating for a noob.

[+Sol seaker]

You would want to have the,caches preloaded. Don't expect them to do that right off. Having laminated maps are a good idea. I don't know if those units have maps, but you have to let them learn in small bites. Some can do more, but most will have more fun if you keep it simple for them.

 

I would just plan on them using the compass on the GPS and nothing else.

Frustration is not fun.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sol seaker

[ChefRd2000]

You would want to have the,caches preloaded. Don't expect them to do that right off. Having laminated maps are a good idea. I don't know if those units have maps, but you have to let them learn in small bites. Some can do more, but most will have more fun if you keep it simple for them.

 

I would just plan on them using the compass on the GPS and nothing else.

Frustration is not fun.

 

Can't wait to hear how they pull this off. And what works (and what doesn't).

[turnmybassup]

Hey guys,

It has been a long time (or so it seems to a summer camp employee) since I updated but I wanted to take a minute and let you know about the program we have put in place here.

I incorporated a lot of the ideas that you guys gave to me, and had a few of my own that I threw in as well. We did decide to go with the eTrex 10's and we bought 5 of them to put into circulation. We tried to keep one main one separate that had custom settings on it for the office staff, however. We didn't feel it was worth having a different high-end model for the camp's use.

We got in contact with the local geocaching group (Abilene Geocachers) and were able to work alongside them to ensure that the caches we did plant were authentic and would make the transition from caching at our camp to caching in the real world as smooth as possible.

We hid 13 physical caches as well as took coordinates for 3 earth caches that are scenic views of the canyon we are in and the campground themselves.

We used google Earth to print a satmap of our property and labelled the map showing where the caches were located. The maps were zoomed out enough not to give too much away, but not to be frustrating for the groups either.

 

Whenever checking the items out, we had two processes depending on the group. For a camp group, we had no formal checkout procedure because if something happened we knew who to hold accountable. For family reunions and other groups, we had a formal checkout sheet that had to be filled out, as well as keeping a form of identification for accountability.

Each GPS had the coord's pre-loaded, and a brief demonstration was given on how to use the unit, as well as what geocaching was and how it was to be done. For the camps we would actually train their staff more thoroughly, as well as take them on a hunt to rouse interest, as their counselors were the ones that truly led the searches, not our paid staff. Each GPS was checked out with a laminated map, the GPSr, a compass and a card that had a list of all of the cache names including difficulty and terrain for quick reference. The idea with all the extra items was to get as many kids as possible involved so they would not lose interest.

 

This summer we did not have a ton of interest, but I don't believe that a week went by without at least a couple of the units being checked out. The family reunions seemed to enjoy it the best (or so I've been told), with many families who had never done it before asking me how they could continue doing it once they got home. Since we did not have the program in place very far before summer, it was hard to push for our camp directors to incorporate a new event into their schedules, but I feel that next year we can market it much better and be able to expand it's use a lot more.

 

I am very thankful to you guys for the advice and helping us put it together! I am very excited to see how we can build upon and improve the experience, and I believe that it will only get more use and excitement as time goes on.

[ChefRd2000]

Thanks for the update! Did new people find the etrex easy to use? I always wondered what the frustration level would be with only a short demo before using it in this way.

[turnmybassup]

ChefRD, this is a reply a long time in coming!

 

The groups really enjoyed the eTrex's, but I think the learning curve may have been a bit steeper for some of the younger ones (as you may imagine). After we compiled all of the numbers of kids and families that used the units, we realized that it was much more successful than we originally thought! We just purchased two more eTrex's to add to our fleet to make sure that all the participants that are interested would be able to hunt this summer!