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US location / mineral monuments


MOCKBA
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I understand that GLO / cadastral markers usually aren't referenced against geodetic network, and they are of little interest for geobenchmarking. What about USLMs / USMMs ? If I get it right, these form a kind of "island" cadastral areas, surrounded by a territory which has not been land-surveyed and has not been divided into townships.

We have a few of those in the old mining areas in the mountains. I assume that they should be tied into geodetic networks? Since they are kind of disconnected from the GLO range / township grids? Is there any straightforward way to get their coords, to find their age, and just to figure out what should they look like?

 

[This message was edited by MOCKBA on September 08, 2003 at 01:51 PM.]

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You may be able to scale the coordinates from a topo map that shows a USLM.

 

I would go to your BLM office to research the USLM's in your area.

 

Please note that any Lat/Long shown on the old plats are accurate given the instrumentation available. Of course, newer USLM's will have more accurate Lat/Longs.

 

BUT, the actual position of the monument is what matters to surveyors, not necessarily the coordinates.

 

The BLM records will also show what type of monument was used. Could be anything from a stone, wood stake or brass disk.

 

Sounds like fun trying to find one of these monuments.

 

One other comment:

 

USLM's were generally set because the Public Land Survey System (PLSS) either had not or was not going to come to the area. Sometimes the PLSS came through later.

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I worked and am working mineral claims in New Mexico.

These are usually 20 acres at least and up to several hundred.

I know In my Search that I did have to use the GLO records for the lands that were patented,the patent contains all the right to the land and the Federal Government holds most of these.You can then make a tie to the GLO corners to map out the claim,then you have to go to the County Courthouse in which the lands are located and make your claim,you then have to keep your claim up to date by doing 100 + $$ in improvements every year.

 

I do not know now what the exact wording is now,but some have grandfathered clauses.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

*GEOTRYAGAIN*

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

1803-2003

"LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/index

 

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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One of my obsessions is finding mineral location monuments. While researching location information I will quite often come across a mining claim that was established using a USLM as a starting point. These are common in Montana where early surveys were done before the GLO surveyors got here. It is a real thrill to find one of these. Some of them promably have not been seen since they were monumented. There is another monument that was used in the late 1800's around areas of multiple mineral claims called INITIAL POINT. This was a point that all surveys were tied to. Some areas had so many claims that multiple INITIAL POINTS were established.

I would be glad to post some photos if someone would be so kind as to tell me how.

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quote:
Originally posted by SQUARE NAIL:

It is a real thrill to find one of these. Some of them promably have not been seen since they were monumented.


That's exactly what glued my attention to this.

quote:
I would be glad to post some photos if someone would be so kind as to tell me how.

Please do! Could you upload some picts to a note for a local BM or a history-themed virtual? Or even to my Mineral Clifftops cache - it isn't a virtual but it's about mining history, and there are these US*Ms I'm after close to it? And then paste the image URLs here? Of course the photos don't even have to be at gc.com for this.

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As it turns out, all of my USLM photos are on my laptop which is in the shop getting fixed. I should have it back in a day or so. I'll pick a BM close to the area and post photos to that site with explanations for each picture. Then I'll post a note here with the PID number.You will be suprized to see how difficult they are to recognize even though you know you are within a few feet.

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Yes you are correct on the Older ones prior to GLO.I was refering to current tie to.as a reference.

Because the claims were random points,Mineral claims do not follow a particular form,it makes it hard to find alot of them and some of the rich ones are still unknown in certian areas,Like mine no one really wants to tell where they found Gold,it was the same way back then there was a lot of secrecy to the entrances to mines.

I guess I will have to take some pics and post them from some of the other Mineral claims that I know about.

They did have to be done in a prescribed way as well A mound of stone 4' high with a post 4" or bigger at the center of each corner,the paper work was left in 1 of the corners usually in a Top Ciggarette can,or a fruit jar,Me and dad have several that were found in Arizona and New Mexico as well as Colorado.

 

All this Old history is coming back to life I love it.................Happy ....Geotrails

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

*GEOTRYAGAIN*

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

1803-2003

"LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/index

 

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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Square Nail's pictures were really exciting, the problem I have with reproducing the feat is that to fo it right, I'd have to spend some time in the BLM archives. Guess I'll may do it when the weather is no good for the outdoors?

In the meantime I picked two US*M's locations which seemed pretty obvious, both are in the open on top of the hillocks in Park City mining area. I think I know where ther were, and will post picts of whatever remains, which is not too much to say the truth. Check PARK BM.

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I know this is an old post but I ran across it and ... here goes:

I've been in the surveying, mapping and mining business (as a draftsman & surveyor) for 30 some odd years and found maybe half a dozen Mineral Monuments. If you want to hear some remarkable stories I would suggest you find a congregation of land surveyors and ask each one to tell a story of the their most unusual find. I've heard of prehistoric bird nests on the Great Salt Lake, one surveyor found and old, battered transit left behind from an Indian raid in the late 1800's, buried charcoal used to be the preferred method for monumenting section corners in Indian territory and a tale of a strange rock near Grand Junction with writing on it, not Spanish and not recognizable as any language to the surveyor (and this surveyor was no idiot). It's just fascinating history to me. Almost all of the Mineral Monuments in this country were placed in areas that are remote, usually on high ground and were triangulated by sighting mountain peaks and measuring a bearing angle from True North. They could not measure the distance to these peaks with any degree of accuracy. The necessity for these monuments was to locate mining claims which came to be before there were states or any type of survey control in the Western US. We were a new country, growing and open to exploitation of resources. They were different times but many of these monuments still exist and I know of one in the La Sal Mountains that I swear I will locate and post on Waypoints (as they are not tied to the GLO system) before I die. It's just an old 8"x8" post in a mound of rock with carved writing, stating what it is. It's a beautiful thing to see and I hope it hasn't been destroyed by fire or some ignorant backpacker.

Thanks for letting me get this out :anitongue:

 

I understand that GLO / cadastral markers usually aren't referenced against geodetic network, and they are of little interest for geobenchmarking. What about USLMs / USMMs ? If I get it right, these form a kind of "island" cadastral areas, surrounded by a territory which has not been land-surveyed and has not been divided into townships.<BR>We have a few of those in the old mining areas in the mountains. I assume that they should be tied into geodetic networks? Since they are kind of disconnected from the GLO range / township grids? Is there any straightforward way to get their coords, to find their age, and just to figure out what should they look like?<BR><BR>[This message was edited by MOCKBA on September 08, 2003 at 01:51 PM.]

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I know this is an old post but I ran across it and ... here goes:

I've been in the surveying, mapping and mining business (as a draftsman & surveyor) for 30 some odd years and found maybe half a dozen Mineral Monuments. If you want to hear some remarkable stories I would suggest you find a congregation of land surveyors and ask each one to tell a story of the their most unusual find. I've heard of prehistoric bird nests on the Great Salt Lake, one surveyor found and old, battered transit left behind from an Indian raid in the late 1800's, buried charcoal used to be the preferred method for monumenting section corners in Indian territory and a tale of a strange rock near Grand Junction with writing on it, not Spanish and not recognizable as any language to the surveyor (and this surveyor was no idiot). It's just fascinating history to me. Almost all of the Mineral Monuments in this country were placed in areas that are remote, usually on high ground and were triangulated by sighting mountain peaks and measuring a bearing angle from True North. They could not measure the distance to these peaks with any degree of accuracy. The necessity for these monuments was to locate mining claims which came to be before there were states or any type of survey control in the Western US. We were a new country, growing and open to exploitation of resources. They were different times but many of these monuments still exist and I know of one in the La Sal Mountains that I swear I will locate and post on Waypoints (as they are not tied to the GLO system) before I die. It's just an old 8"x8" post in a mound of rock with carved writing, stating what it is. It's a beautiful thing to see and I hope it hasn't been destroyed by fire or some ignorant backpacker.

Thanks for letting me get this out :anitongue:

 

I understand that GLO / cadastral markers usually aren't referenced against geodetic network, and they are of little interest for geobenchmarking. What about USLMs / USMMs ? If I get it right, these form a kind of "island" cadastral areas, surrounded by a territory which has not been land-surveyed and has not been divided into townships.<BR>We have a few of those in the old mining areas in the mountains. I assume that they should be tied into geodetic networks? Since they are kind of disconnected from the GLO range / township grids? Is there any straightforward way to get their coords, to find their age, and just to figure out what should they look like?<BR><BR>[This message was edited by MOCKBA on September 08, 2003 at 01:51 PM.]

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Hello Panda Inc.

Thank you for bringing this topic back from the dead. Some of the most enjoyable time spent in the woods for me has been searching for USLM's. There is so much history and finding these can be a real challenge. Several times I have had to find the claim corners before I could find the USLM. There are still a few I haven't looked for but I will when the snow clears at the 8700 foot level here in Montana. August at the earliest.

I posted some photos today at pid # RX0531 http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=RX0513

 

Gary

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Rest easy, Panda Inc. The big fire didn't get to USLM No 2, or to the old cabins. Some years ago, some yoyo pulled the post out, and tossed it down the mtn. I called in to the FS, and had them reset it. I plan on being back on the mtn this summer, to get more Pat Claim corners in the GPS receiver, if the other foot dosen't get in the grave first. ( I messed up trying to send the first post )

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Thank You xyzee for the info.

 

It's been at least 20 years since visiting the Mineral Monument and I can't remember the name or number. I came down (south) from Mineral Mountain / Mt. Waas and found it on the east end of Horse Mountain. I believe there is a backpacking trail near it now, into Bachelor's Basin. But this time I'll have to hike up from Willow Basin to get to it and I'm 20+ years older ... It'll be worth it.

Cheers,

Allen

 

Rest easy, Panda Inc. The big fire didn't get to USLM No 2, or to the old cabins. Some years ago, some yoyo pulled the post out, and tossed it down the mtn. I called in to the FS, and had them reset it. I plan on being back on the mtn this summer, to get more Pat Claim corners in the GPS receiver, if the other foot dosen't get in the grave first. ( I messed up trying to send the first post )

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Oops, make that "I came (NORTH)..."

 

Thank You xyzee for the info.

 

It's been at least 20 years since visiting the Mineral Monument and I can't remember the name or number. I came down (south) from Mineral Mountain / Mt. Waas and found it on the east end of Horse Mountain. I believe there is a backpacking trail near it now, into Bachelor's Basin. But this time I'll have to hike up from Willow Basin to get to it and I'm 20+ years older ... It'll be worth it.

Cheers,

Allen

 

Rest easy, Panda Inc. The big fire didn't get to USLM No 2, or to the old cabins. Some years ago, some yoyo pulled the post out, and tossed it down the mtn. I called in to the FS, and had them reset it. I plan on being back on the mtn this summer, to get more Pat Claim corners in the GPS receiver, if the other foot dosen't get in the grave first. ( I messed up trying to send the first post )

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BLM has plats that often show USLM or MM's but don't necessarily trust them. Sometimes they have been misplotted and the Mineral surveys tied to them can be plotted miles off from where they are. Sometimes you have to diligently follow the notes the LM description and the MS notes and gradually figure out things from workings on the ground. I found a large cone shaped LM down along the edge of the Panamint valley that was misplotted by more than 6 miles.

 

Getting a good location on one of these can really help BLM clean up their records, MTP's and maps, if they listen to you.

 

- jerry

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Yes, that is USLM No 2, on the ridge to Horse Mtn. Since ole Bob is pushing 80,and pulling 70, I can relate to the 20 years thing. I only made it up to the 11,200 ft elev last summer, got to get in better shape for the 12 thou plus, for this summer!

Har to protect these old monuments, when the redneck freaks, eco freaks, hunters, hikers, and big city people, are in a contest to see who can destroy the mostest, fastest. A lot of the Pat corners, and other Mineral Survey corners, near trails, and easy places to get to, have been totally wiped out. Most of the survey control stations, that were done in 1968, are now fire pits, or destroyed. Even the rebar, that was close to the trail leading to the No 2, was pulled up and gone. I had the half in above ground covered with small gravel, and they still found it. I burried a large nail there. I wish that I had of taken more pictures earlier. I'm trying to find out who set the USLM s and when, from the BLM up in "Salt Lick", but they weren't able to find out on first try. Lots of survey history here, from the Hayden Party in 1875,on Mt Waas ( named for a local Indian Chief, or someone in the party, as I understand it ) the Mineral surveys, sections in the 30 s, to a large claim survey in 68. More than enough to keep me busy with a Brunton, tripod, 300 ft tape, and clinometer, in the early years. After age 70, a good handheld GPS receiver has been more fun, when High up. Taking on PC stuff at the same time as GPS stuff, when older, keeps the brain cells active. Learning State Plane, Trans Merc, Lambert etc, and with a MobileMapper is more fun.

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I posted some photos today at pid # RX0531 http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=RX0513

Gary, may I suggest that you add exact coordinates for each of those marks to their descriptions so that people who are in the vicinity of RX0513 will know how to find them? I'm sure that your photos will get people interested, so it would be a shame to frustrate them from finding the marks!

 

I'm also unclear about the reference on that page to "you will see what Panda Inc. is talking about." I see someone by that name posting in this thread, but not on that page. Are you suggesting that people come over to this page to read something? If so, it would really be helpful to provide a link to this thread from that page.

 

Patty

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A lot of these old records are showing up online on the BLM site(s). And more are getting added. I haven't seen any mineral surveys yet but there are a few plats available in T26S, R24E, SLM. One gives the lat-lon of the NW corner, Section 14 which is inside the boundary of MS 4914, and very near one of its corners. I found the plats here - http://www.ut.blm.gov/LandRecords/landrecords.html

 

They don't have anything for Colorado up ... yet. But here is a link to other related material -

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/SurveySearch/Default.asp?

 

Hope to at least see your footprints up there this summer.

 

Cheers,

Panda Inc

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Thanks Jerry, for the BLM tips, etc.

 

Thanks Panda Inc, for the site info. I lost a lot of the good sites in a previous XP crash.

 

Now on the "backup" XP, as the main PC was doing the, don't know if it sent, thing, and wouldn't open pages, for the last week +.

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