Restrictions on OTHER Events on 10th Anniversary Days?

[+DragonflyTotem]

I know that Groundspeak will not recognize a flash mob as an official 10th Anniversary event. But have they said that they will not allow other events that just happen to be held the same day? Obviously I have a reason for asking so may as well lay that out -- I want to host a flash mob event on May 2nd. There is a planned 10th Anniversary event that will be a couple of blocks away from the flash mob event. The flash mob event was to be held first, with it ending prior to the 10th Anniversary event, and encouraging everyone attending the flash mob event to then disperse from there to go attend the anniversary event. And the flash mob event doesn't in any way indicate in its description that it is a 10th Anniversary event.

 

I have that event in the queue for approval but last night saw that a local reviewer accidentally archived the 10th Anniversary event based on saying that "Groundspeak does not believe that it is a good idea to have flash mob events that same day as the 10 year events" because "if that were the case there could be events all day long." The local reviewer then unarchived the 10th Anniversary event (so that was fixed) but I assume that note was actually intended for my planned event as the note indicated that was the reason for accidentally archiving it (but my event hasn't been reviewed yet). So I'm assuming that what's next is to not approve my planned event. And again, the two events are not at the same time and also there are no other flash mob events being held here during either of the anniversary dates. The location is nearby the official event, but that's only because that's where the local GC group has held previous flash mob events. And just in case it makes a difference, the host for the 10th Anniversary event has said that he doesn't have a problem with the flash mob event being held prior to the anniversary event.

 

I can't find anything that would indicate that the flash mob event can't be held then, only the note about a flash event not being able to be a 10th Anniversary event (which this isn't planned to be). That just doesn't seem to be something that Groundspeak would do -- claiming May 1st & 2nd can only be for official anniversary events. I'm wondering if the local reviewer has misunderstood something that Groundspeak has put out. So my question is whether there is something that Groundspeak has put out that precludes having other events on the same day as 10th Anniversary events???

[Keystone]

Geocachers are welcome to hold other types of events that weekend.

 

What is at issue here is the concept known as "event stacking." This is a time-honored concept and is nothing that's specific to the anniversary weekend. People are already in the immediate area for the 10 Years! event, so the Flash Mob is just being stacked on top of that. Hold your flash mob 50 miles away, or on another day, and you shouldn't have a problem getting it listed.

 

From the listing guidelines: "For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a full weekend event that includes a geocoin trading session, a seminar and a potluck dinner, multiple event listings may be submitted if they each stand on their own merits as events meeting the listing guidelines."

[+DragonflyTotem]

I'm hesitant to reply as I suspect that it will end up heading things down a path that I didn't intend as I was simply looking for whether there was a rule that says:

"Groundspeak does not believe that it is a good idea to have flash mob events that same day as the 10 year events"

 

But about your comment regarding event stacking and the guidelines about events standing alone -- your comment doesn't make sense to me, given the guidelines (which doesn't as far as I can see even address "event stacking"). Are you suggesting that an event that would/could run a whole weekend, but that if you want to have multiple event listings you can only do so if they are separated by some predetermined distance (you suggested 50 miles)? I read the guidelines and get as an understanding that if an event at a specific location wants to run for a full weekend, that each event has to stand on its own. I see nothing there to suggest that they cannot be at the same location. Am I missing that somewhere there?

 

I think that if I've read the guidelines correctly, that the planned flash mob event exactly fits the guidelines because the 10th anniversary rules prohibit flash mobs as events and so that event has to stand on its own, meeting guidelines for an event. Right? I don't see anything in the guidelines then that would preclude the event. "Time-honored concepts" aside, I thought that you were held to listing guidelines?

 

Geocachers are welcome to hold other types of events that weekend.

 

What is at issue here is the concept known as "event stacking." This is a time-honored concept and is nothing that's specific to the anniversary weekend. People are already in the immediate area for the 10 Years! event, so the Flash Mob is just being stacked on top of that. Hold your flash mob 50 miles away, or on another day, and you shouldn't have a problem getting it listed.

 

From the listing guidelines: "For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a full weekend event that includes a geocoin trading session, a seminar and a potluck dinner, multiple event listings may be submitted if they each stand on their own merits as events meeting the listing guidelines."

[+Touchstone]

There is a planned 10th Anniversary event that will be a couple of blocks away from the flash mob event.

 

I agree with Keystone, that it appears that "stacking" is the problem. I believe this ruling is based on the following portion of the Guidelines:

 

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a full weekend event that includes a geocoin trading session, a seminar and a potluck dinner, multiple event listings may be submitted if they each stand on their own merits as events meeting the listing guidelines.

 

I believe that your Local Reviewer rightly concluded that there is no substantial difference between the nearby 10 Year! Event and your Flash Mob Event. It will, for all intensive purposes, have the same attendees, and be nothing more than a relocation of the nearby Event by a short distance.

 

I read the guidelines and get as an understanding that if an event at a specific location wants to run for a full weekend, that each event has to stand on its own. I see nothing there to suggest that they cannot be at the same location. Am I missing that somewhere there?

 

Since your Flash Mob is not running the entire weekend, that doesn't seem to be a relevant question to the original post. But yes, I have certainly seen Events that basically ran over a weekend (or longer) that had various components, all somewhat unique (BBQ one day, CITO the next, etc.).

 

Good luck!

 

(edit: splling)

Edited March 31, 2010 by Touchstone

[+DragonflyTotem]

So you're saying that the guidelines saying that "full weekend event that includes a geocoin trading session, a seminar and a potluck dinner" and your comment that "It will, for all intensive purposes, have the same attendees, and be nothing more than a relocation of the nearby Event by a short distance" means then that the same people cannot attend each of the events?

 

I disagree though on an assumption that it will have the same attendees. I suspect that there will be those who do not want to attend an event in a restaurant and there will be those who would not want to attend a flash mob.

 

However, it appears that since a different local reviewer has read this post and has already now archived the event that this discussion is no longer relevant.

 

 

There is a planned 10th Anniversary event that will be a couple of blocks away from the flash mob event.

 

I agree with Keystone, that it appears that "stacking" is the problem. I believe this ruling is based on the following portion of the Guidelines:

 

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a full weekend event that includes a geocoin trading session, a seminar and a potluck dinner, multiple event listings may be submitted if they each stand on their own merits as events meeting the listing guidelines.

 

I believe that your Local Reviewer rightly concluded that there is no substantial difference between the nearby 10 Year! Event and your Flash Mob Event. It will, for all intensive purposes, have the same attendees, and be nothing more than a relocation of the nearby Event by a short distance.

 

I read the guidelines and get as an understanding that if an event at a specific location wants to run for a full weekend, that each event has to stand on its own. I see nothing there to suggest that they cannot be at the same location. Am I missing that somewhere there?

 

Since your Flash Mob is not running the entire weekend, that doesn't seem to be a relevant question to the original post. But yes, I have certainly seen Events that basically ran over a weekend (or longer) that had various components, all somewhat unique (BBQ one day, CITO the next, etc.).

 

Good luck!

 

(edit: splling)

[+Touchstone]

So you're saying that the guidelines saying that "full weekend event that includes a geocoin trading session, a seminar and a potluck dinner" and your comment that "It will, for all intensive purposes, have the same attendees, and be nothing more than a relocation of the nearby Event by a short distance" means then that the same people cannot attend each of the events?

 

I believe the difficult task before you is, not so much, whether there will be different attendees at each Event, but rather, defining in some way how your Flash Mob is substantially different from the nearby 10 Year! Event. Personally, that appears to be a much tougher task than explaining how a regular Event is different from a Geocoin Event or CITO.

 

You can, of course, still hold your Flash Mob, but it just won't add to anyone's Find count.

 

However, it appears that since a different local reviewer has read this post and has already now archived the event that this discussion is no longer relevant.

 

That would be an erroneous assumption. Appeals (appeals@geocahing.com) would be the final word, not the Local Reviewer.

[+zgrav]

I can see the dilemma here -- you could have the flash mob at the same time as the other event and conflict with it to prove they are not coordinated -- but it would affect attendance. If you scheduled it too much earlier or later the same day it would also affect attendance because people would be less likely to go to both events if they were leaving the area in between.

 

But coordinating at a time where you won't inconvenience the potential attendees also means you are coordinating it so it could be done in conjunction with the nearby event.

 

Personally, as long as this is being planned independently it would be OK with me as a separate stand-alone event. Of course reasonable minds can differ, and do.

[+palmetto]

Your original question has gone a couple of different directions.

 

There's no restriction on other non-10 Years! events on May 1 or 2. There may have been some misunderstanding about that, or the reviewer wrote one thing, while thinking about another (I've done that while reviewing, and truly muddied the waters).

 

The issue of whether your Flash Mob event, a short distance in both time and space from the other event, "stands on its own merits" per the guideline, is a judgment call.

 

I encourage you to use appeals@geocaching.com - you might get to have that event, and the reviewer will have a bit more clarification from Groundspeak on this. At worst, appeals will uphold the archival, and you'll be no worse off. Believe me, reviewers do not mind when a cacher goes to appeals and their decision is reversed - so don't worry about that at all.

[+DragonflyTotem]

It may be kind of hard to ask Groundspeak about it as the reason given no longer applies.

 

The log entry was: "Greetings! I see that you have already taken this cache to the Groundspeak forums and Keystone has explained that this is a clear case of "event stacking." It's clear that this flash mob event is planned as a "pre-event" for the nearby 10 Years! event and is not a separate event which stands on its own. For this reason, I cannot publish this event."

 

But as I wasn't actually asked about it first, I didn't get a chance to remove the "pre-event" language which apparently shouldn't have been there, before it was archived. I did remove it once told, so it isn't there now. And so I think that the stated reason for the archive no longer applies.

 

 

Your original question has gone a couple of different directions.

 

There's no restriction on other non-10 Years! events on May 1 or 2. There may have been some misunderstanding about that, or the reviewer wrote one thing, while thinking about another (I've done that while reviewing, and truly muddied the waters).

 

The issue of whether your Flash Mob event, a short distance in both time and space from the other event, "stands on its own merits" per the guideline, is a judgment call.

 

I encourage you to use appeals@geocaching.com - you might get to have that event, and the reviewer will have a bit more clarification from Groundspeak on this. At worst, appeals will uphold the archival, and you'll be no worse off. Believe me, reviewers do not mind when a cacher goes to appeals and their decision is reversed - so don't worry about that at all.

[+Team Taran]

I don't think it is the language on the web page that determines if this is a pre-event but the intention that prompted it's creation.I think that your original language on the web page and your note on the 10 year event in question, clearly indicate that the purpose of this event was to capitalize on the 10 year event. Editing these items does not change the purpose of the event, only attempts to conceal it.

Team Taran

[+EscapeFromFlatland]

How about a CITO in a park nearby for the same day? Would that also be circumspect under Groundspeak's regulations for the day?

[+palmetto]

Groundspeak's regulations for the day?

 

The event rules for the day(s) are exactly the same as any other time.

There is a special set of requirements for events to be included in the 10 Years! group with the special icon.