Delorme PN-20 or Legend HCx

[+G-Squad]

My 8 year old Magellan Map 330 stopped working so I need a replacement. Mrs. Santa gave me the ok to spend about $200 to do just that. So, I have been doing some research and with the budget given and some shopping around, I've narrowed it down to the Legend HCx or the Delorme PN-20. Whichever I buy, it will only be used for geocaching and minimal, lightweight hiking (upto 3 hour roundtrip). I am not worried about screen size, nor the size or weight of the unit.

 

I am leaning more to the Legend since it has been around a while in different flavors and is a pretty solid unit. Free maps are a plus for it. But, the PN-20 with aerial and satellite imagery for $30 all you can stuff on your hard-drive really has caught my eye. From what I have read on the PN-20, the mapping software (T7) has a high learning curve. It seems the process to load maps and a gpx file spun from GSAK is a PITA to say the least. And, what about the mapping refresh rate? How well does it refresh while walking, hiking, cache searching?

 

Can someone give me some answers to those questions? And is there some other gps in the $200 range I am missing other then another Magellan? If so, why should I consider it over these two?

 

Thanks for your help!

[+embra]

The PN-20, while not around as long as the Legend incarnations, has been out long enough now (it's a couple years old) that it's pretty well polished in what it does. It's well-suited for your intended uses.

 

It will be able to implement Delorme's planned geocaching features that will be available for the PN-40 first. This should allow paperless caching. There also will be software applets that should allow one to avoid getting into Topo7 for most geocaching-related tasks, including waypoint transfers (I don't mind the Topo7 role in the process, but there's no denying it''s an extra step for GSAK users).

 

You can also get the Delorme topo maps into the PN-20 without resorting to Topo7 by using the precut region maps that Delorme provides on DVD. These can just be copied to an SD card to stick in the GPS.

 

If you want to take advantage of the subscription imagery, you'll have to learn how to cut (create) detail map files within Topo7. Besides the usual definition of the area desired, you have to specify which data types to include and what zoom levels to include. So there is more knowledge, effort, and attention to details that must be mastered. My personal opinion is that is well within the capabilities of the typical GPS user, but it's also true that it is outside the hassle tolerance of at least some people who've tried it. There's lots of support to help people work the process through in the form of tutorials and the Delorme Users forum.

 

Once you're over the startup curve, those most disappointed are those who desire a broad coverage of the imagery features. I don't see the process of downloading imagery and cutting maps as particularly complicated, but since one has to do it in relatively small chunks of coverage areas, it has to be repeated more frequently for larger areas. Getting a square of 40 mi 40 mi around your home is quite doable, but downloading all the imagery for one's state could be rather impractical.

 

One thing I remind people is that if they buy from an approved retailer, Delorme gives a 30 day return period for anyone not satisfied.

[+peto_geo]

I had the exact same dilema last summer. I had gotten rid of several GPS's (etrex and Map330) and was looking for a replacement. I was leaning towards the Venture HC but had always found the Delorme PN-20 neat. I found a company selling Refured PN-20's for a great price so I went that route. It has been the best GPS I have ever owned (etrex,Map330,Explorist210,Triton400 for short while). It's also great having the PN-20 mounted on my bike and be able to easily operate the buttons. An etrex would be much harder as the buttons are on the side.

 

Delorme has an up coming Firmware release and Geocaching widget that is supposed to make the PN-XX completely paperless for caching. I know Delorme has a lot in the works on the Geocaching front. Check out their website.

 

etrex Legend HCx gets much better battery life than the PN-20 though. I get about 12 hours with 2650 rechargeable Duracells. The Legend I hear gets like 22-26 hours. Maybe more.

 

The refresh rate on the PN-20 can be slow if you have lot's of Aerials or USGS Topos. The screen can take between 2 - 8 seconds (my experience) to refresh when switching zooms. The PN-20 easily keeps up while walking or biking with imagery on though.

 

Remember, Delorme offers a 30 day guarantee and if you don't like the unit just send it back.

[+TurLee]

I think the difficulty of using the Topo7 software is overblown. At first look it is very intimidating but with the step-by-step pictorial embra posted on the DeLorme forum I had no difficulty at all loading a .gpx the first time and didn't even need to look at the tutorial the second time. Keep in mind it isn't necessary to learn everything the software can do, it's only necessary to learn to do the things you want to do.

 

My requirements are pretty much the same as yours; only for geocaching and light hikes not exceeding a couple of hours. I bought the PN-40 so I can't really address the refresh speed of the PN-20 but I can tell you that having the aerial imagery for the cache site is very useful.

 

I am one of those embra is talking about … my first thought was to download imagery for my whole state … that turned out to be impractical just because the files are so big. A little time with the software, though, and I could easily just download the detailed imagery for the cache sites … no real need for detailed photos of the entire route.

 

If only the ground here wasn't covered with half an inch of ice covered by several inches of snow with temperatures expected to stay way below freezing for the coming week … ah well.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

But, the PN-20 with aerial and satellite imagery for $30 all you can stuff on your hard-drive really has caught my eye. From what I have read on the PN-20, the mapping software (T7) has a high learning curve.

Yes, some do report a "high" learning curve. However, I doubt the relevance of those comments in a comparative context. Compared to what? Nothing, actually. There are no other handhelds with the $30 imagery subscription for which you have to learn how to download and install the photo imagery.

 

Regarding using GSAK as a PITA, I can't comment on that as I have no experience with it. I paperless cache with my PN-20 and use neither GSAK, Cachemate nor a PDA. Currently, and prior to the eagerly awaited Cach Register, I download the GPX files, individually or with a Pocket Query, to Topo 7 and then export to my PN-20. It is not that difficult, here is a simple 10 step guide along with a link to embra's supplemental screen shots of the process:

1. With a Premium Membership, click on the GPX button of the cache of interest and send it to your PC.

2. On your PC, open up the bundled DeLorme Topo USA 7.0 mapping application.

3. Click on the "Draw" tab, click on the "File..." button, then click on the "Import..." button on the right.

4. Navigate as usual to the folder where you saved the downloaded GPX file and Open it.

5. Click on the "Handheld Export" button.

6. Connect your PN-XX and boot it up.

7. Back in Topo 7, click on the "Exchange" window.

8. Objects stored and recognized by Topo &, including the downloaded caches as Waypoints, will be in the tree structure in the left pane while the objects contained in your PN-XX are shown in the right pane.

10. Select the subject Waypoint in the left pane tree and click the "Send" button.

It is now in your PN-20, -40.

 

Screenshots of the above steps:

Link to Embra's graphics

 

Multiple caches may be downloaded via Pocket Query in a similar fashion.

[+Hrethgir]

I actually have a Legend HCx and had a PN-20. I really liked the PN-20; in fact, I liked it enough that I sold it so I could buy a PN-40. The downside of the PN-20 is that it is on the slow side in regards to redraw speeds and moving around/between menus. Don't expect it to be useful for showing imagery when you're in a car, the redraws can't really keep up if you zoom n too much, but for walking speeds, it works fine. Also, it comes with full street-level maps, while the Garmin only comes with major highways/freeways. you can get free maps for it, true, but they aren't routable, just something to keep in mind. They are both very nice units, though, can't really go wrong with either one of them.

[+Blind Avocado]

 

Yes, some do report a "high" learning curve. However, I doubt the relevance of those comments in a comparative context. Compared to what? Nothing, actually. There are no other handhelds with the $30 imagery subscription for which you have to learn how to download and install the photo imagery.

 

 

With all due respect, that is just absurd. That is like saying"in a comparative context" that brain surgery has no learning curve because there are no other professions where people cut open peoples brains. I agree that embra's 10 steps are not that difficult once you learn them, but compaired to the 2 steps it takes with GSAK on the garmin, it is more complex. And don't even get me started with the process of cutting maps and installing POI's on the PN-40. now there is a learning curve.

[+Team DeLorme]

I'd like to make a clarification in the hope it will help others.

 

1) Loading POIs onto the PN-series involves taking one of the three DVDs we include and copying the region you want using the wizard to an SD card. Once on the SD card, this region contains integrated topo and street maps plus the POIs for that region. The fact that these are all blended into one database not requiring separate purchases and processes should make things easier for the user.

 

2) Getting imagery and the supplemental datasets onto the device in the steps described above is a more demanding process as you are now working with layered data (much in the way Photoshop is more complex than a simpler photo editing program). DeLorme will continue to work on simplifying this part of the process but is true that due to the enormous file sizes of imagery and other raster datasets like the nautical charts, the little computer that is the PN model is being severely tasked and the method of getting the desired data requires some work. We could just create hundreds of SD cards but our online "picking" system was designed to let users select among differing data types of different places so they could head out with what they want.

 

Hope this helps explain how the DeLorme system is designed.

 

Caleb from Team DeLorme (just back from CES)

 

 

 

 

Yes, some do report a "high" learning curve. However, I doubt the relevance of those comments in a comparative context. Compared to what? Nothing, actually. There are no other handhelds with the $30 imagery subscription for which you have to learn how to download and install the photo imagery.

s

 

With all due respect, that is just absurd. That is like saying"in a comparative context" that brain surgery has no learning curve because there are no other professions where people cut open peoples brains. I agree that embra's 10 steps are not that difficult once you learn them, but compaired to the 2 steps it takes with GSAK on the garmin, it is more complex. And don't even get me started with the process of cutting maps and installing POI's on the PN-40. now there is a learning curve.

[+embra]

I'd like to make a clarification in the hope it will help others.

 

1) Loading POIs onto the PN-series involves taking one of the three DVDs we include and copying the region you want using the wizard to an SD card. Once on the SD card, this region contains integrated topo and street maps plus the POIs for that region. The fact that these are all blended into one database not requiring separate purchases and processes should make things easier for the user.

That's a good clarification to make in case anyone thought Blind Avacado was referring to regular POIs. But in his defense, I'm certain he was referring to the steps of uploading custom POIs--not too bad a process for small operations, but difficult for the scale he wanted.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Yes, some do report a "high" learning curve. However, I doubt the relevance of those comments in a comparative context. Compared to what? Nothing, actually. There are no other handhelds with the $30 imagery subscription for which you have to learn how to download and install the photo imagery.

 

 

With all due respect, that is just absurd. That is like saying"in a comparative context" that brain surgery has no learning curve because there are no other professions where people cut open peoples brains. I agree that embra's 10 steps are not that difficult once you learn them, but compaired to the 2 steps it takes with GSAK on the garmin, it is more complex. And don't even get me started with the process of cutting maps and installing POI's on the PN-40. now there is a learning curve.

Exactly, what is High when there is no Low to compare? Where is the Low with unlimited download of photo imagery for $30 per year. Why is it not relative?

[+G-Squad]

I was the one asking about the difficulty of the software, so let's not get sidetracked on comparisons. I have the answers I was looking for regarding that so let's move on with some other questions.

 

Thanks to all of you for the responses and the tutorials. I am now giving the PN-20 the higher consideration. But some final questions. Is the PN-20 limited to 2GB cards max?

 

Caleb's post indicates the region I cut would contain integrated topo and street maps. Then the aerial would overlay those. Embra mentioned I should be able to get a 40 mi x 40 mi region cut. That's actually about the size of the area I would want to keep loaded. Is the size likely to be under the 2GB? Or is the answer to that question dependent on other factors I am unaware of?

 

If I have two regions on the same card, and the regions are geographically adjacent to each other, and I am walking from one region over to the other, will the 20 transition by itself or will I manually need to switch maps?

 

Thanks again to the responses!

[+TotemLake]

I was the one asking about the difficulty of the software, so let's not get sidetracked on comparisons. I have the answers I was looking for regarding that so let's move on with some other questions.

 

Thanks to all of you for the responses and the tutorials. I am now giving the PN-20 the higher consideration. But some final questions. Is the PN-20 limited to 2GB cards max?

 

Caleb's post indicates the region I cut would contain integrated topo and street maps. Then the aerial would overlay those. Embra mentioned I should be able to get a 40 mi x 40 mi region cut. That's actually about the size of the area I would want to keep loaded. Is the size likely to be under the 2GB? Or is the answer to that question dependent on other factors I am unaware of?

 

If I have two regions on the same card, and the regions are geographically adjacent to each other, and I am walking from one region over to the other, will the 20 transition by itself or will I manually need to switch maps?

 

Thanks again to the responses!

The size of the file for color aerial will be about 350MB per set, High Res City imagery is about 100MB larger for a smaller area. If you have multiple regions, they will seamlessly load as needed. A 2GB card will be able to handle several regions or sets of imagery.

 

According to this thread, you're not limited to 2GB cards.

Edited January 12, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Roger that, I put a 16GB SDHC card in my PN-20 and it was recognized and compatible.

 

However, it is very time consuming to transfer that much data with the card installed in the PN-20. I strongly suggest that if buy that card, you also buy a reader for SDHC cards. I have this one:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6858

[+embra]

Caleb's post indicates the region I cut would contain integrated topo and street maps. Then the aerial would overlay those. Embra mentioned I should be able to get a 40 mi x 40 mi region cut. That's actually about the size of the area I would want to keep loaded. Is the size likely to be under the 2GB? Or is the answer to that question dependent on other factors I am unaware of?

It depends on the kind of imagery. As noted, the Topo7 street/topo data doesn't take much, about 34MB for that size grid, but unless you're conserving space you'll more than likely want to go ahead and use the larger precut region maps.

 

The USGS quads would require about 340MB for that area, while the color aerial imagery will need the most--around 5.5GB. The 1-meter Hi-Res needs a lot more, if you're fortunate enough to have it in your area of interest (currently this is available in major metropolitan areas only).

 

The sweet spot many of us are finding attractive right now is with the 16GB SD cards. I picked one up for $25 last week.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

The sweet spot many of us are finding attractive right now is with the 16GB SD cards. I picked one up for $25 last week.

Down a buck at Newegg today with free S&H:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...1-245-_-Product

[+G-Squad]

PN-20 it is.

 

Thanks to all for helping with the decision!

[+MnStar]

Congrats. I don't think you'll be sorry. I've only had mine less than a month, but I love it already. The big thing is I have come to trust it. I don't find the software that tough to use. There are some good threads on here about that. I like the controls much better than the Garmin. Very happy with mine.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

PN-20 it is.

 

Thanks to all for helping with the decision!

Copy that!