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jipsi59
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Apple users are happy computer user's. We have the the best OS, most stable system, virtually no viruses and the hardware just works. however you need all these work arounds to participate with a Mac. I have to buy a Keyspan serial to USB device to hook my Garmin to my Mac. I have purchased a specific program to allow downloads of .gpx files. I have another program that allows for plotting of .loc files on map and then from there can be transferred to my Garmin.

 

I not quite sure how this Wherigo works (should have a Quicktime-Apple clip showing how it is played). I don't no that it matters for me, because I have not noticed any mention of Mac compatibility

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Apple users are happy computer user's. We have the the best OS, most stable system, virtually no viruses and the hardware just works. however you need all these work arounds to participate with a Mac. I have to buy a Keyspan serial to USB device to hook my Garmin to my Mac. I have purchased a specific program to allow downloads of .gpx files. I have another program that allows for plotting of .loc files on map and then from there can be transferred to my Garmin.

 

I not quite sure how this Wherigo works (should have a Quicktime-Apple clip showing how it is played). I don't no that it matters for me, because I have not noticed any mention of Mac compatibility

 

That's funny.. I have a Dell Axim handheld with MICROSOFT OS and it just works.... BTW - MACS are getting more and more viruses as they begin to see their OS share increase. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose. Anyways, back to your topic

 

1) If you have to buy a keyspan serial to USB device to get your Garmin to work, what does Garmin have to do with Groundspeak and Wherigo?

 

2) I have a Garmin with the software that came with it and don't have to do the things you've described, it just WORKS (and I have a PC)

 

The vast majority of those that use the forums here are probably PC users, so instead of insulting us, you could probably catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.. Maybe someone can help you understand how to use your software better if you just asked.

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Apple users are happy computer user's.

 

I have a Mac at home and I can't say I'm happy or unhappy with the product. I live on both sides and just feel like they're all tools. Some do things better than others.

 

We have the the best OS, most stable system, virtually no viruses and the hardware just works. however you need all these work arounds to participate with a Mac. I have to buy a Keyspan serial to USB device to hook my Garmin to my Mac. I have purchased a specific program to allow downloads of .gpx files. I have another program that allows for plotting of .loc files on map and then from there can be transferred to my Garmin.

 

I use Parallels for a lot of Windows based stuff and it just works too.

 

Let's be frank here. Macs are great products and the hardware "just works" because it's usually Apple hardware. But for the majority of computer users, Windows is the product of choice. That makes it Groundspeak's product of choice - at least at the start. It reaches the broadest population of users the fastest way with the least amount of headache.

 

The Wherigo Builder, still in alpha, is the first foray into creating cartridges using a WYSIWYG interface. If you have the knowledge of Lua you can code just fine using a Lua tool on a Mac. Once we start open sourcing our cartridges you can see how you can code experiences on any platform. So really you can code today on a Mac using any kind of text editing tool (if you know how). And you can compile your cartridge today just by uploading a zip file of your creation.

 

Web based tools are definitely the best step forward and we expect to make wizards to allow cartridge creation online instead of using any proprietary tool. So Mac, Linux or Windows can be happy building cartridges online.

 

And finally, as I have mentioned in other posts, we're looking at porting the Wherigo Player on the iPhone. The problem is, unsurprisingly, that you can't develop for the iPhone while you can develop for Pocket PC and even Windows Mobile. Fortunately for us it seems that Apple will be providing an SDK so we don't have to use some kind of Jailbreak code to build applications for the device.

 

I not quite sure how this Wherigo works (should have a Quicktime-Apple clip showing how it is played). I don't no that it matters for me, because I have not noticed any mention of Mac compatibility

 

Our plan is to create a YouTube, or in other words, Flash, demonstration of Wherigo (or two or three) in the coming months. Since Flash is universal and doesn't require any downloads we would prefer that over Quicktime or any other proprietary video format.

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I read somewhere that a blogger thought that the new Garmin Colorado was running a version of Windows CE. This is definitely not the case. It's a proprietary embedded system that doesn't have any Microsoft code under the hood. It was one of the most exciting parts of the project to show that the Wherigo Player can be ported to many different devices.

 

The underlying Wherigo engine has been actually compiled under some flavors of Unix though the User Interface has yet to be ported. In fact, the earliest version of the engine was text based! So portability is a concern much more for the Player than it is for the Builder. It's important that someone can create an experience that can be played on a large variety of devices.

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So portability is a concern much more for the Player than it is for the Builder. It's important that someone can create an experience that can be played on a large variety of devices.

 

A Java port, to allow it to run on arbitrary smart (and even less smart) phones, would be waaaay cool, now that Bluetooth GPS add-ons seem to run about 20 bucks.

 

Darn, I just joined the list of people saying "my platform! my platform! me! me!" :rolleyes:

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So portability is a concern much more for the Player than it is for the Builder. It's important that someone can create an experience that can be played on a large variety of devices.

 

A Java port, to allow it to run on arbitrary smart (and even less smart) phones, would be waaaay cool, now that Bluetooth GPS add-ons seem to run about 20 bucks.

 

Darn, I just joined the list of people saying "my platform! my platform! me! me!" :rolleyes:

 

Heh. I guess one of the requirements in the near future is coming up with a port of Lua to Java.

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Apple users are happy computer user's. We have the the best OS, most stable system, virtually no viruses and the hardware just works. however you need all these work arounds to participate with a Mac. I have to buy a Keyspan serial to USB device to hook my Garmin to my Mac. I have purchased a specific program to allow downloads of .gpx files. I have another program that allows for plotting of .loc files on map and then from there can be transferred to my Garmin.

 

I not quite sure how this Wherigo works (should have a Quicktime-Apple clip showing how it is played). I don't no that it matters for me, because I have not noticed any mention of Mac compatibility

That's funny.. I have a Dell Axim handheld with MICROSOFT OS and it just works.... <snip>

I have a Garmin with the software that came with it and don't have to do the things you've described, it just WORKS (and I have a PC)

Of course they work because the GPSr and apps are designed to be compatible with Windows. The question is why there is little or no apparent Mac support for Wherigo in particular and other GPS apps in general. It's a question on the mind of many Mac-based geocachers who struggle with proprietary Windows-only Garmin and Magellan devices, and then have to deal with elements of geocaching where the Mac is a side-thought.

 

The answer, as Jeremy has stated in no uncertain terms, is that there are not enough Mac users to worry about, a common refrain of Windows software developers. It begs the question of geocaching community equity (as opposed to business concerns) but that's a topic for another time.

 

BTW - MACS are getting more and more viruses as they begin to see their OS share increase.

True, especially as we become more networked with other users and as evil-doers get more aggressive. However, the Mac OS is inherently secure and most Mac users rely on common sense rather than special virus programs. The few reported Mac viruses have been obscure quirks that were quickly corrected, proof-of-concept exercises, or related to Microsoft products on the Mac. For every Mac virus there are tens of thousands of PC viruses.

 

It's all a matter of perspective I suppose. Anyways, back to your topic

 

1) If you have to buy a keyspan serial to USB device to get your Garmin to work, what does Garmin have to do with Groundspeak and Wherigo?

Garmin has a relationship with Groundspeak and close ties to Wherigo. To their credit Garmin is slowly... painfully slowly... making progress with Mac compatibility after years of empty promises. Ironically, a Mac user still has to run Windows to convert maps to a form suitable for the Mac apps. At least Garmin is not Magellan who have flatly stated they do not support Macs.

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Apple users are happy computer user's.

I have a Mac at home and I can't say I'm happy or unhappy with the product. I live on both sides and just feel like they're all tools. Some do things better than others.

True enough from a practical standpoint but note that satisfaction surveys place the Mac at the top in terms of the operating system, reliability and tech support. Computer users tend to be more productive when they are happy and spending less of their time on system problems and confusing interfaces.

 

I, too, have used many different computers over the years (Commodore, TRS-80, Apple, Wang, Xerox, etc.) and more recently worked with a Mac and a Windows box side-by-side on my desk. There is no doubt which one makes me happier! Granted that I deal more with words, numbers and images than computer code but that's true of most people.

 

I can't see why GPS receivers or geocaching apps need to be platform specific. Given today's knowledge and tools it should be straightforward to build universal code that is easily adapted to work almost anywhere. That would certainly make the >7% (and growing) of us Macs users even happier. :smile:

Edited by bigeddy
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I use a mac (several macs) and the cable that came with my garmin worked fine.... although garmins software will not work on a mac but I bought another software and am very pleased I have gotten a free update via email about every 3 months and it works great.... What I miss is the ability to use my palm pda to read caches in e book format.... now thats a bummer.....and something I really used...

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The answer, as Jeremy has stated in no uncertain terms, is that there are not enough Mac users to worry about, a common refrain of Windows software developers. It begs the question of geocaching community equity (as opposed to business concerns) but that's a topic for another time.

 

 

That's not what I wrote. I wrote "at the start" meaning that the development at this point doesn't make resource sense, especially when the plan would be to make the builder application web centric to be OS independent. I don't have any OS bias but you seem to have it in spades.

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The answer, as Jeremy has stated in no uncertain terms, is that there are not enough Mac users to worry about, a common refrain of Windows software developers. It begs the question of geocaching community equity (as opposed to business concerns) but that's a topic for another time.

That's not what I wrote. I wrote "at the start" meaning that the development at this point doesn't make resource sense, especially when the plan would be to make the builder application web centric to be OS independent. I don't have any OS bias but you seem to have it in spades.

What I see now is a Windows-only builder and your statement that this is because of user share--that is what I was responding to. If the plan is for an eventual OS-independent builder, great, although it begs the question as to why initial development is Windows.

 

Yes, I have OS bias, but I'm not a software developer for a large community of users. I am happy to hear that you have no bias.

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Here's something fun I just thought about: thus far, Groundspeak has produced only web applications. They have really gotten good at this. Just reference the Google Maps interface and load handling measures they have put into the site. Given their obvious strength at producing web interfaces, why would such a company all of a sudden create a Windows application for no reason? There's a big visualization and learning curve going from the free-flowing nature of the web to a restrictive WinForm application. Given this behavior, would any company do such a thing without a good reason, public or private?

 

That said, I decided to begin guessing as to the reason:

 

It could be the complexity of the entire building process, the emulating feature, the build process, or saving the information. Either one of these could warrant an application rather than a web implementation. Yes, I will acknowledge that with proper development, most of this could be mitigated. However, at what cost to UI complexity and time? It may have taken much longer to build a proper AJAX-implemented web UI.

 

Just as an aside, I need to point out that a lot of the back end code written for the builder will be usable in a web application--but only if the developers correctly separated the UI and logic layers. This is fundamental to any sort of modern developing work, so I believe this was done. Those wondering about a web version must concede this point: a majority of what Groundspeak does in the back end of the builder is reusable, hence meaning less work.

 

That being said, let's get back to the topic of a web UI. Take a look at the builder. I can understand and visualize what a web UI would look like, but only to one window deep. However, you could practically open new windows in the builder ad infinitum. I can't see this happening in a web UI. This is one difficulty in creating something online.

 

The second difficulty is the emulation. The part with the PDA is something created for .Net development and testing by Microsoft. When you build for a PDA in Microsoft Visual Studio, that is the component you see in the testing environment. Frankly, I was surprised to see it used in the emulator. I don't remember seeing that testing component used in any other company's production application. But, then again, I don't usually play around with programs needing emulation in a PDA. My point is, I don't know how that will look on the web. I'm sure Groundspeak could make a "faux player" application, but it certainly won't have the same quirks as something running in the PDA emulator.

 

The next difficulty is tracking the data. Where is it going to be stored? As a file on the user's box or are we going to take up megabytes of storage on a development server? It's not much now, but compare that to the geocaching.com server--if Wherigo reaches that popularity in eight years, that is. But let's look at today, then. We have traffic on the gc.com servers. The heavy days are Sunday, when people write logs for the weekend, and Friday, I guess, when people run their pocket queries. Now, developing a Wherigo cartridge will require a lot of server attention--more than simply displaying, logging, and browsing caches. If too many people began developing on that server, would we not see and complain of a slowdown?

 

I will admit I, too, have a bias. I like .Net, but WinForms (Windows applications) do not thrill me as much as ASP .Net and AJAX implementations. So, yes, I'd love to see what such an implementation looks like. After all, I am a web developer. I am not a marketing person, but would like to think I have a good grasp of the current platform situation. However, I am a developer. From that perspective, I have given this all of, say, ten minutes of thought and managed to come up with these difficulties. I don't have inside knowledge--couldn't share it if I did--but I do suspect there may have been other reasons for going with a Windows application.

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Parallels is a beautiful thing, and the Wherigo builder works fine with it.

 

I even have the real Wherigo player running under pocket PC emulator, under windows (parallels) on mac os x.

 

If you have an intel based mac and don't like not being able to use those few PC apps, get yourself a copy of parallels.

 

http://www.parallels.com/

 

-Ben

 

For the record, I used (or rather tried to use) parallels for about 6 months before I threw up my hands and bought a copy of VMWare Fusion (just like Parallels but works :laughing:. Haven't had a problem since. I own a MacBook Pro, and have done all my Wherigo stuff on windows inside of Mac, on Windows.

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One reason for less Mac support is the limited market share. Granted, it's growing but.....

 

In 2005 it was big news that Mac had broken 4% of the market share. In 2007 it was huge news that Mac had broken 8% of the market share. If it keeps on this way you will see more virus problems as the folks who write viruses decide it's a large enough market to warrant their attention.

 

As the market share grows, you can hope that more application developers (rather than just virus writers) pay attention and offer support for the Mac.

 

[Edit]

Note: Please drop the "it just works" hype. It makes you sound like someone parroting marketing rhetoric rather than someone who actually knows what they are talking about. My wife works as a journalist for a newspaper. The entire office is Mac based. Quite often their computers "just don't work". :D

Edited by Thrak
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This area is for the discussion of issues revolving around Getting Started with Wherigo. Let's refocus this thread: the connectivity solutions for Mac users who want to experiment with Wherigo.

Thank you. Unfortunately the only answer to Mac use offered by posters including Jeremy is to run Windows on the Mac, an expensive and (in my mind) highly undesirable "solution." If Garmin, another company that states they have no platform bias, is any example we may expect a Mac version within, say, 2 years--the time it has taken Garmin to develop some minor Mac apps for some of their receivers. I hope to be proven wrong with Wherigo--we shall see.

 

Meanwhile I can't even play the existing Wherigo cartridges because they are for another Windows-type platform, the PocketPC, whereas I use the Palm OS on my phone and PDA. I don't understand why a game for a large community of users is platform-specific. Try placing a cache that requires specific software to find--it won't get published--and yet here we are with Groundspeak doing just that. :)

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It seems the best current answer has already been presented.

 

I'm not unsympathetic to everyone's plight, but complaining about the state of affairs won't get the work done faster, nor is it productive. I will lock this topic for a few days, then reopen it. Please stay on topic, which is ways a Mac user can enjoy Wherigo--especially the emulator.

Edited by Ranger Fox
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Please stay on topic, which is ways a Mac user can enjoy Wherigo--especially the emulator.

Seven months later. Has there been any progress in developing a way for a Mac user to run the emulator? If I had a way to do it I could quickly double the number of cartridges in my state.

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I know Groundspeak is working on something to make the Player available to a larger audience. That may or may not come with Mac support. Other than that, I can't really say much else on the matter.

 

I'll ask Groundspeak to see what they say.

 

Edit: I asked. From what I gathered they're working on, I think they will have to learn a lot of new things. It's just too early to mention on the forum because, if you make it public, people will expect it far sooner than what you planned and will hold you to what you said even if you had to change it to make it better.

Edited by Ranger Fox
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From what I gathered they're working on, I think they will have to learn a lot of new things. It's just too early to mention on the forum because, if you make it public, people will expect it far sooner than what you planned and will hold you to what you said even if you had to change it to make it better.

It is understandable that the developers are plowing new ground and do not want to commit to a schedule. I think most users are fine with that. We may get annoyed at long delays but we will accept them so long as we know what is going on. The important thing is to keep us informed of general goals and progress. Going 7 months without any word is bad. Quarterly if not monthly status reports--just a few sentences from the people working on it--would help.

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The Wherigo Dev team are working very hard to figure out the exact direction Wherigo should take as well as improving features that are lacking in the current version that exists today. Please! Stay tuned, for the next update will be very exciting.

 

J2B2 :o

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The Wherigo Dev team are working very hard to figure out the exact direction Wherigo should take as well as improving features that are lacking in the current version that exists today. Please! Stay tuned, for the next update will be very exciting.

 

J2B2 :)

 

Hopefully the excitement will extend beyond Apple products too??

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