Ethics of handing out hints

[vtmtnman]

I'll admit it...I'm guilty of the taboo of asking third party hints.In my defense-

1-I wanted a nudge in the right direction,not a big hint.

2-It's a puzzle cache I'm pretty much not going to ever find if I do solve it.

3-I accepted the fact that the third party involved said he was sworn to secrecy,and respect that.

 

In this case,the fun was to try to solve the puzzle(A 5 star diff),nothing more.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

The only way a cache owner could be affected by other folks giving hints are if they fall into the following category:

 

The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

 

I personally am not a hint requestor, be it cache owner or previous finders. My philosophy is I don't have to find them all. But I believe there would be less angst if cache owners viewed their caches as a service to others, and not as their own personal property to be lorded over. The cache is for the enjoyment of others, however they come to that enjoyment. Don't try to dictate their experience. Have fun that they are having fun.

[+flask]

Personally, I am not very concerned with people who feel affected by something that doesn't actually affect them.

 

It's nice to be able to go through life without regard for the feelings of others. I wish I could do that.

 

i don't care how you feel.

 

no, seriously. i have a set of caches for which i will give lessons on how to arrive at solutions, but the pencil-and-paper work is up to the finder. i actually don't care who gives the advice, but i get hacked if people just give out the coordinates. i took a lot of trouble to make some nice caches. i would appreciate it if people solve them as intended. three puzzles yields five caches and a nice walk around pretty and varied terrain. plus a lesson in music theory! awesome!

 

i and some of my friends end up having to 'splain the theory pretty often, but it's cool when people get the hang of it.

 

i call them the f series.

 

fundamentalism

figured bass

functional harmony

full fathom five

finale

Edited June 20, 2007 by flask

[nonaeroterraqueous]

In a nutshell, the owner's reward for the hide is the joy of living vicariously through the finders. They cheat themselves by begging hints, and the owner is cheated vicariously through them.

 

 

Would anyone disagree with this assessment?

[+flask]

In a nutshell, the owner's reward for the hide is the joy of living vicariously through the finders. They cheat themselves by begging hints, and the owner is cheated vicariously through them.

 

 

Would anyone disagree with this assessment?

 

yes, i would. i don't buy the vicarious living bit.

[+JamGuys]

In a nutshell, the owner's reward for the hide is the joy of living vicariously through the finders. They cheat themselves by begging hints, and the owner is cheated vicariously through them.

 

 

Would anyone disagree with this assessment?

I think I said something very similar earlier (post #45) although I think "cheated'" is too strong a word - suggests some form of entitlement on the part of the cache owner - I prefer "disappointed" instead.

Edited June 21, 2007 by JamGuys

[nonaeroterraqueous]

yes, i would. i don't buy the vicarious living bit.

 

Then you don't care to imagine what it might be like for people to find your caches?

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I think I said something very similar earlier (post #45) although I think "cheated'" is too strong a word - suggests some form of entitlement on the part of the cache owner - I prefer "disappointed" instead.

 

Naw, too strong. Let's call it "suboptimally satisfied."

[Ghengis Jon]

I travel a bit, having cached in 9 states and 4 countries. On occasion, after having left the area, I've asked owners where it was (via e-mail) if I've DNF'd. I explain I probably won't be back and would like to admire their ingenuity. Sadly, I've found I won't even get a response of any sort, from the owner, 2 out of 3 times. Methinks some people take the game too seriously.

[+sbell111]

I travel a bit, having cached in 9 states and 4 countries. On occasion, after having left the area, I've asked owners where it was (via e-mail) if I've DNF'd. I explain I probably won't be back and would like to admire their ingenuity. Sadly, I've found I won't even get a response of any sort, from the owner, 2 out of 3 times. Methinks some people take the game too seriously.

agreed

[+Major_Dad]

No, I take that back. I did help someone with a multi that was basically a puzzle cache in nature. It had a little flaw in its design that was throwing people off. You could only get it right if you made a mistake...or what certainly looked like one.

 

Eh...I don't care. I figure if people get to the point where they're asking for help, then they're probably not going to get it otherwise. A cache not found is a cache not enjoyed.

 

Someone's going to flame me for this, but I don't care. It's just too hot today for me to care. Flame me tomorrow.

I think everyone should "try." I don't like giving out hints like candy. I'll typically ask someone what they done so far/where they've looked. If it sounds like they haven't a darn thing I won't give them much.

What I personally find the most frustrating is the puzzle caches that are created that can only be solved in the mind of the creator. I understand the thrill of figuring out a puzzle cache. I have enjoyed a few of them, but only a few. The reason I have not personally attacked more is because many of them are becoming increasingly more and more difficult, if not simply impossible! Especially if you do not think 'EXACTLY' like the person who created the cache. When creating such a cache, the one creating it really needs to 'wargame' it out to see jsut how difficult it would be if they were to try it without already knowing it. I read something about placing Geocaches that has brought me some grief...it read along the lines that the cache placer truly wants their cache to be found...otherwise why place it? I have found this to not be the case in some instances. These puzzle creators are merely trying to see how many people they can frustrate with their 'awesome' puzzling abilities. HUMBUG!!!!! I have begun my own personal campaign against such individuals. Semper Fidelis.

[+RV CREW]

I only ask for hints after I have exhausted all the possiblities and I am stuck. I know some cachers who ask me for a hint after they have done the same. On the other hand I know one cacher who couldn't find a cache if his life depended on it. All he wants is someone to tell him where it's at. I guess we all have our own reasons for doing this.

[+JamGuys]

 

What I personally find the most frustrating is the puzzle caches that are created that can only be solved in the mind of the creator. I understand the thrill of figuring out a puzzle cache. I have enjoyed a few of them, but only a few. The reason I have not personally attacked more is because many of them are becoming increasingly more and more difficult, if not simply impossible! Especially if you do not think 'EXACTLY' like the person who created the cache. When creating such a cache, the one creating it really needs to 'wargame' it out to see jsut how difficult it would be if they were to try it without already knowing it. I read something about placing Geocaches that has brought me some grief...it read along the lines that the cache placer truly wants their cache to be found...otherwise why place it? I have found this to not be the case in some instances. These puzzle creators are merely trying to see how many people they can frustrate with their 'awesome' puzzling abilities. HUMBUG!!!!! I have begun my own personal campaign against such individuals. Semper Fidelis.

 

Not all caches are created equal. There are good puzzle caches and bad puzzle caches just as there are good traditional caches and bad traditional caches. There are simple puzzle caches and difficult puzzle caches just as there are simple traditional caches and difficult traditional caches. Puzzle caches don't appeal to everyone and there's no need to stress about those you can't figure out. Just leave them to those who enjoy them and move on.

[+DanOCan]

In a nutshell, the owner's reward for the hide is the joy of living vicariously through the finders. They cheat themselves by begging hints, and the owner is cheated vicariously through them.

 

Would anyone disagree with this assessment?

 

Yeah, I would.

 

If someone wants the hints that is how they want to play the game so they likely don't see it as "cheating themselves". Therefore they found the cache in a manner they wanted to, they enjoyed themselves so the owner should not feel cheated.

 

There are exceptions though -- I know there are some caches where information truely would ruin the experience and for those I swear myself to secrecy, but for others I'll help out if I can.

 

As for the OP, "it depends" too.

 

-- On my caches I will give hints to anyone who asks. I try to judge from the their tone as to whether they want a nudge or an outright spoiler. As a hider I place caches to be found and for others to enjoy so why should I keep them from finding them? Those who want the challenge can do it the hard way, others can "shortcut it", either way I am happy.

 

-- If someone asks me about a cache I don't own I will use my judgement. If I know the person and we have "worked together" before then I will try and point them in the right direction. If I don't know the asker I try and judge if they are truely stumped or just lazy.

 

The thing that kills me are people who hand out spoilers when someone HASN'T asked about a cache. Nothing worse than someone give away all the secrets before you even get a chance to try youself.

[+DanOCan]

What I personally find the most frustrating is the puzzle caches that are created that can only be solved in the mind of the creator.

 

At the risk of going off topic...

 

I agree. We have a local puzzle hiding legend and his puzzles are all what I call "elegantly simple". You may simply stare at it for hours with nothing but then once something clicks you can run with it easily the rest of the way...until you run into his clever hides! That to me is the mark of a good puzzle -- after you solve it you should be asking youself "How did I miss that for so long?"

 

To me a bad puzzle is one that is just designed just to be difficult. The type that, after you solve it, you ask yourself "How did ANYONE ever figure this out?"

 

It's easy to create a puzzle that is just "stupid hard" but very difficult to create a puzzle that is "elegantly simple."

 

Hmm, it was more than a risk -- I did go totally off topic. Sorry 'bout that!

[+suz55tbird]

As a cache owner, it is very irritating to me when 1. another cacher gives hints for my caches, and 2. another cacher asks someone other than me for a hint to one of my caches!

The caches that I'd give a hint for...I've already given one--it's encrypted at the bottom of the cache page!

[+TrailGators]

What I personally find the most frustrating is the puzzle caches that are created that can only be solved in the mind of the creator.

 

At the risk of going off topic...

 

I agree. We have a local puzzle hiding legend and his puzzles are all what I call "elegantly simple". You may simply stare at it for hours with nothing but then once something clicks you can run with it easily the rest of the way...until you run into his clever hides! That to me is the mark of a good puzzle -- after you solve it you should be asking youself "How did I miss that for so long?"

 

To me a bad puzzle is one that is just designed just to be difficult. The type that, after you solve it, you ask yourself "How did ANYONE ever figure this out?"

 

It's easy to create a puzzle that is just "stupid hard" but very difficult to create a puzzle that is "elegantly simple."

 

Hmm, it was more than a risk -- I did go totally off topic. Sorry 'bout that!

I agree!

[+sbell111]

As a cache owner, it is very irritating to me when 1. another cacher gives hints for my caches, and 2. another cacher asks someone other than me for a hint to one of my caches!

The caches that I'd give a hint for...I've already given one--it's encrypted at the bottom of the cache page!

If my buddy figures out the solution and I go out with him to sign the logbook, would that irritate you also?

 

It always amazes me when people get worked up by the realization that they do not have ultimate control over others.

[+flask]

i want people to make a bona fide attempt to solve my puzzles; that's what they're there for.

 

there's a cache near where i live though where you have to know the cache hider's favorite restaurant, which isn't too hard to do IF you know where he used to live AND what kind of restaurant USED to be on the opposing corner.

 

i'm happy to help peoiple learn to solve my puzzles and i'm happy if they get this instruction from a third party.

 

yes, it's ok with me if you go along wih your buddy who solved.

 

it is not ok with me if your buddy hands the coordinates out to people wha ask.