NOAA Repoting Link Error

[+klipsch49er]

I recently tried to follow the link in the forum to the NOAA page to report 2 markers that are very definitly destroyed by shore loss in a inlet.

 

Does anyone know how to do this? I could not figure it out and the the link provided in the FAQ and related topic area did not work.

 

Thanks

[+MDSurveyor]

This is the NGS web address to enter Marker Recovery

 

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/FORMS_PROCESSING-c...y_entry_www.prl

[+shorbird]

Since the NGS security upgrade on May 19-20, it has not been possible to complete the mark reporting form at the NGS website. This message is displayed: Cannot create recovery file: No such file or directory. NGS is working to correct the error.

[andylphoto]

You can report the markers as "not found," (when the system is back up) but unless you have the actual markers, or photographs of them out of their setting, you won't be able to report them as destroyed. Having marks destroyed is a manual process--you must send email to Deb Brown. It's very difficult to get a disk destroyed unless you have a photo of the actual disk removed from its setting, or it's described as being set in a building that you can prove no longer exists.

[caseyb]

Since the NGS security upgrade on May 19-20, it has not been possible to complete the mark reporting form at the NGS website. This message is displayed: Cannot create recovery file: No such file or directory. NGS is working to correct the error.

 

You are correct. My good buddies over in the systems division are pulling their hair out trying to get everything back up and running. A lot of the NGS services are down right now (including OPUS and a lot of the CORS data). But things are quickly getting better and should be back to normal soon.

 

 

-Casey-

[+klipsch49er]

Since the NGS security upgrade on May 19-20, it has not been possible to complete the mark reporting form at the NGS website. This message is displayed: Cannot create recovery file: No such file or directory. NGS is working to correct the error.

 

You are correct. My good buddies over in the systems division are pulling their hair out trying to get everything back up and running. A lot of the NGS services are down right now (including OPUS and a lot of the CORS data). But things are quickly getting better and should be back to normal soon.

 

 

-Casey-

 

All of the discussion on this link talks about destroying a benchmark. I am a little confused, I found SJ0280 and recorded it on Geocaching.com I was trying to record it for NOAA. Are they to be removed and destroyed or discoved and left in place? What should I do now?

 

Thanks for the help.

[mloser]

Klipsch49er,

 

You basically have two different questions here, even though you think you want to do just one thing--get marks declared destroyed.

 

Starting with the easy one: SC2527. This is what is known as an Intersection Station, and was historically used by surveyors to help them adjust equipment and measure angles more accurately. They are rarely, if ever, used any more. I think of intersection stations as "pointy things"--things that have a very definite spot that can be sighted upon from a distance in order to measure an angle. The most common examples are the tops of water towers. church steeples and radio antennas. Less common are roof gables and flagpoles and cupolas on buildings. The coordinates for intersection stations are precise and should take you exactly to the location of the structure to within the limits of your GPSr.

You mention the old bridge in your recovery, but that is not what is described. The station in this case is the gable of an old building that was a lime factory, more precisely, the EAST GABLE of that building. The bridge is mentioned as a reference to find the building--"ABOUT 540 FT. E-NE OF THE BRIDGE AT BAY CENTER". The building is "ON THE N SIDE OF THE ENTRANCE TO THE SLOUGH". I am not a sailor but Google Maps and Topozone maps show a narrow harbor. Neither show a building on the north side of the entrance, so we can be reasonably sure the building doesn't exist even before we visit. In order to get this marked as destroyed you have to email evidence to Deb Brown at the NGS showing proof that there is nothing where you expect it. Typically a picture of your GPSr in GOTO mode pointing to empty space will suffice. I usually send one pic showing the GOTO arrow and one or more showing the general area where the arrow pointed to prove there is nothing there. KV3835 is a good example.

 

Now the harder one. STORE is a triangulation station, and while you may personally be certain that it is gone, unless you have physical evidence of the station you will not get it marked as such. In the case where a disk is involved the NGS demands that the disk either be returned or pictures of the disk in destroyed status be mailed to them. Anything other than that is simply a "not found". Like the CGS did in 1953, you can post text saying that the mark should be considered destroyed, but in my opinion that is presumptious if you don't know enough about the area to be completely certain that the mark is gone. Granted that GPS has allowed us to get much closer to triangulation stations than was possible in years past, but usually there is not enough evidence to be sure a mark is truly destroyed and not just buried once we get there.

 

The 1953 recovery is a rare one, however. The CGS FOUND the station in very poor condition and could not find one reference mark. In this case it would be logical to assume that the intervening 50+ years were not good to the pipe that was barely imbedded in the sand and that the disk is now lost and gone forever. Aerial photos seem to indicate that the area is no longer under the high water mark, so it may be worth looking closely at. I would pull the NGS datasheet and go to the location, then search for the station lying somewhere in the weeds, and also look for both reference marks. The datasheet shows exactly what distance and direction the reference marks are. If you can find approximately where the station would be using your GPSr you can measure approximately to a reference mark. Once you find one of them you can measure precisely BACK to the station area and see if there is any chance of the station being there.

[Bill93]

And just in case anyone who might read this thread in the future gets confused, I want to reiterate:

 

If we find a disk that might have any possibility to be useful to a surveyor, even if it looks damaged or leaning out of place, we are to leave it in the condition we found it and let NGS make the determination. They may decide that it is still possibly useful for some purposes and therefore "Poor" and not "Destroyed".

 

Note also that condition has little to do with the cosmetics of the disk. The important thing is whether it accurately marks the original position or elevation. If its position is stable and you can be reasonably certain it is the right disk, then it may be "Good" even though it looks very beat up and even partly broken.

[+klipsch49er]

Klipsch49er,

 

You basically have two different questions here, even though you think you want to do just one thing--get marks declared destroyed.

 

Starting with the easy one: SC2527. This is what is known as an Intersection Station, and was historically used by surveyors to help them adjust equipment and measure angles more accurately. They are rarely, if ever, used any more. I think of intersection stations as "pointy things"--things that have a very definite spot that can be sighted upon from a distance in order to measure an angle. The most common examples are the tops of water towers. church steeples and radio antennas. Less common are roof gables and flagpoles and cupolas on buildings. The coordinates for intersection stations are precise and should take you exactly to the location of the structure to within the limits of your GPSr.

You mention the old bridge in your recovery, but that is not what is described. The station in this case is the gable of an old building that was a lime factory, more precisely, the EAST GABLE of that building. The bridge is mentioned as a reference to find the building--"ABOUT 540 FT. E-NE OF THE BRIDGE AT BAY CENTER". The building is "ON THE N SIDE OF THE ENTRANCE TO THE SLOUGH". I am not a sailor but Google Maps and Topozone maps show a narrow harbor. Neither show a building on the north side of the entrance, so we can be reasonably sure the building doesn't exist even before we visit. In order to get this marked as destroyed you have to email evidence to Deb Brown at the NGS showing proof that there is nothing where you expect it. Typically a picture of your GPSr in GOTO mode pointing to empty space will suffice. I usually send one pic showing the GOTO arrow and one or more showing the general area where the arrow pointed to prove there is nothing there. KV3835 is a good example.

 

Now the harder one. STORE is a triangulation station, and while you may personally be certain that it is gone, unless you have physical evidence of the station you will not get it marked as such. In the case where a disk is involved the NGS demands that the disk either be returned or pictures of the disk in destroyed status be mailed to them. Anything other than that is simply a "not found". Like the CGS did in 1953, you can post text saying that the mark should be considered destroyed, but in my opinion that is presumptious if you don't know enough about the area to be completely certain that the mark is gone. Granted that GPS has allowed us to get much closer to triangulation stations than was possible in years past, but usually there is not enough evidence to be sure a mark is truly destroyed and not just buried once we get there.

 

The 1953 recovery is a rare one, however. The CGS FOUND the station in very poor condition and could not find one reference mark. In this case it would be logical to assume that the intervening 50+ years were not good to the pipe that was barely imbedded in the sand and that the disk is now lost and gone forever. Aerial photos seem to indicate that the area is no longer under the high water mark, so it may be worth looking closely at. I would pull the NGS datasheet and go to the location, then search for the station lying somewhere in the weeds, and also look for both reference marks. The datasheet shows exactly what distance and direction the reference marks are. If you can find approximately where the station would be using your GPSr you can measure approximately to a reference mark. Once you find one of them you can measure precisely BACK to the station area and see if there is any chance of the station being there.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respod with so much information and also for looking specifically to a benchmark I tried to locate!

 

The Bay Center mark as well as the other in that area were my first attemps to find marks. Literally the area for both benchmarks no longer exist. I trampled quite a bit of weed to assure myself that they indeed has suffered at the hands of mother nature. Inteviews with locals confirmed my results. However, at the time I did not know I could use my GPS and pictures to provide relavant data to anyone.

 

One of the places I am hung up in undewrstanding what is going on is the venacular "Recovered". Does this mean that it was removed from the location or that it was "re-discovered"?

 

So far, for the benchmarks I have tried to locate, the structures and witness items they describe are all long gone. Indeed, for the benchamrk I did find, it was the fact that it was attached to a larke granit bolder that helped.

 

Should I have listed the Bay Center mark as destroyed in geocaching.com? I do not recall a "missing" option.

[+Shorelander]

One of the places I am hung up in undewrstanding what is going on is the venacular "Recovered". Does this mean that it was removed from the location or that it was "re-discovered"?

For all intents and purposes, recovered = found; recovered ≠ I took it with me. It is somewhat confusing.

So far, for the benchmarks I have tried to locate, the structures and witness items they describe are all long gone. Indeed, for the benchamrk I did find, it was the fact that it was attached to a larke granit bolder that helped.

You may be doing this, but if you're able to, and if you're reporting to the NGS, take measurements to nearby objects that seem stable and add them. You can search for tips elsewhere in the forum, but generally you want to have both distance and cardinal direction, ordered from most distant to the station to least. Look to the CGS/NGS/Caltrans descriptions in your area for style examples.

 

Of course, in my experience, anything you use as a measurement point will be the next thing to get ripped up in a construction project or storm.

Should I have listed the Bay Center mark as destroyed in geocaching.com? I do not recall a "missing" option.

Yeah, if the building's no longer there, then sure.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Shorelander

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

Klipsch49er -

 

Simply put:

'Recovered' = Found

'Not Found' = May be there, may be missing

 

Here are a few other terms you may run across. Not a complete list, but a start.

 

'Good Condition' = Still usable for its original purpose or other applied survey purposes.

'Poor Condition' = May still be usable, but may require professional and/or NGS determination.

'Damaged' = Most likely not usable, but may require professional and/or NGS determination. Damage can often be repaired.

'Destroyed' = Definately destroyed. Requires NGS determination and usually some sort of proof (pictures or the physical disk).

 

'Scaled Coordinates' = The Latitude and Longitude coordinates are literally scaled from a map. These can be anywhere from a few feet to hundreds of feet off.

'Adjusted Coordinates' = The Lat/Long coordinates have been adjusted to be more accurate. These are usually within a few feet.

'Occupied' = Occupied with a survey-grade GPSr. Coordinates are usually sub-centimeter; much more accurate than your handheld GPSr. These are usually listed as Adjusted coordinates.

 

Hope this helps.

 

- Kewaneh