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iam2smart
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While I can understand the OP's view regarding the "elitism" of MOC's, they have to realize that keeping Geocaching.com and the Groundspeak forums running costs an enormous amount of money. The mere fact that they offer any services for free is amazing. We were thrilled to be able to use the site for free and have access to as many caches as we did. In this day and age, very few things are free. People should really look at what they have. As Sheryl Crow once said..."It's not having what you want...it's wanting what you've got."

 

When we first signed up, we were standard members. We went this way for a few months and I never really cared about MOC's and still don't. My main reason for upgrading was for Pocket Queries and GPX file access. $3/mo. really isn't that much. As someone else said, it's a pack of cigarettes, two pops, a value meal at McDonalds. The MOC's are a nice reward to the people who are paying to keep the two sites up and running. Without premium members, there would not be a Geocaching.com.

 

Furthermore, I'm really sick of people in this country thinking they're entitled to have everything everyone else has. I worked my tail off when I was a kid getting good grades, staying out of trouble, and keeping myself on track. It wasn't easy and I didn't have loads of money. I paid my way through four years of college and made many sacrifices to do it. At times it wasn't fun and I went without a lot of things I really wanted. But the result is a great job and the life I've always wanted to live. Even today, I still go without certain things I want. Do I feel like just because one of my buddies has a brand new Cirrus SR-22 that I should have one too? No, I know he worked hard to pay for it. I'm content to drill holes in the sky with my little rental Piper Warrior. I guess what I am getting at is that I worked for what I have today and am really offended when someone feels they should have everything I have...just because. And don't hide behind the USA thing. This is the land of opportunity...not entitlement. Seize the opportunities!

 

Oh, and to whoever wrote that most PM's are Garmin owners. Profile much???? Yeah, we're Garmin owners and pround of it! They have a great product, that works well, and is easy to use. Just because I worked my tail off to be able to afford one doesn't give you the right to cut me down about it. GPS-brandism...never thought it would come to that. I feel so violated. :)

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In fact, as long as that perk exists, I won't pony up the $3, specifically for that reason.

So you won't stay at Holiday Inn because you won't be a Priority Club member, or get free roadside service because you won't join AAA, or won't get Sky Miles because you won't join the airline's club?

 

Are all those things elitist or just Groundspeak PMs?

Fair enough questions.

 

-No, I would not stay at a holiday in if I had to pay extra for a bed or roof, since a bed and a roof is the basic reason for staying at a hotel in the first place (caches are the basic reason for our sport's existence).

-I have belonged to AAA in the past; but don't anymore. There are other avenues available to get assistance in the case of a roadside breakdown. And while many businesses offer discounts for their products/services if you have AAA membership, they don't refuse to sell to you without that membership (unlike MOCs).

-Sky Miles are a nice perk for frequent fliers, but there are no destinations that I'm aware of that require Sky Miles, so I am not forced to join that club in order to visit a particular destination (again, unlike MOCs).

 

As I said in an earlier post; Boiled down to the basics, Geocaching is about hiding and seeking caches. While Premium Membership should offer perks & features to make that easier/more convienient/more fun, the basic game should remain open to all. IMO, the placement of quality caches and the respectful treatment of caches found is worth alot more to the sport overall than $3 sent to the website.

 

Again, MOCs almost seem designed to cause divisiveness. I like to think of geocachers as one big, extended family in the pursuit of a common goal. MOCs have the effect of dividing that family up into different groups, based on a single criteria that really has nothing to do with whether a person is a "quality" cacher or not. And I don't believe that is healthy for either the sport or the website.

 

I asked the OP this question, but I'll ask you, too. Why is it that you think you automatically "deserve" access to every cache? As for dividing up into groups, that really is a moot point. The moment you add more than one star to either difficulty or terrain you're dividing the group. Yes, I know you have the choice to do it, but once you hit a 5-star terrain that again becomes a moot point. Now you need special "extra" equipment so according to your arguement it seems these should not be allowed either.

 

It's a valid arguement that the majority of the caches placed may be non-premium members (I don't know if that could be verified), but it's a fact that premium memberships pay to keep the system going. The whole system couldn't be operated without money to pay for it. You can't ignore that money is an issue. I agree that money shouldn't be the issue that divides, but I also believe people who contribute dollars have a right to reward others who have also contributed. I pay my taxes so that I can receive social security when I retire. The reality is that a lot of people who don't pay will be using my money and it will probably not be there by the time I need it. This is a bit of tangent, but it illustrates the problem. People who don't pay believing they have a "right" to it just doesn't make sense (not to mention that the system is ultimately broken eventually with this rationality so that no one has access). So again my question to you is: Why is it that you think you automatically "deserve" access to every cache?

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
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So again my question to you is: Why is it that you think you automatically "deserve" access to every cache?

I don't think I automatically "deserve" access to every cache. Again, I simply think that the basics of caching should be available to all cachers, regardless of "how" they contribute. As I said, I think that the placement of quality caches and the respectful treatment of existing caches are a much bigger contribution to the sport than the $3 is. Does that make me better or worse than you? Neither, we simply contribute to the sport in different ways.

 

So again my question to you is: Why do you think i am not worthy to seek your caches but you are worthy (i.e. better) to seek mine?

 

And to Dave&Stacy: My Garmin comment was in jest, as noted by the smiley face, based on the well-known habit of the E-Trex series having trouble under tree cover. A similar comment could be made about Magellan's "sligshot" effect. I happen to own both Magellan and Garmin. Both are good units and both have shortcomings. Debate me on the merits of my arguments if you want, but don't accuse me of cutting you down or "GPS-Brandism", because there's no water in that container. :D

Edited by 4x4van
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I don't think I automatically "deserve" access to every cache. Again, I simply think that the basics of caching should be available to all cachers, regardless of "how" they contribute. As I said, I think that the placement of quality caches and the respectful treatment of existing caches are a much bigger contribution to the sport than the $3 is. Does that make me better or worse than you? Neither, we simply contribute to the sport in different ways.

 

So again my question to you is: Why do you think i am not worthy to seek your caches but you are worthy (i.e. better) to seek mine?

 

And to Dave&Stacy: My Garmin comment was in jest, as noted by the smiley face, based on the well-known habit of the E-Trex series having trouble under tree cover. A similar comment could be made about Magellan's "sligshot" effect. I happen to own both Magellan and Garmin. Both are good units and both have shortcomings. Debate me on the merits of my arguments if you want, but don't accuse me of cutting you down or "GPS-Brandism", because there's no water in that container. :wacko:

 

Fair enough. I have zero experience with the E-trex series. We have a 60CSx and I have used their aviation units many times with nothing but success. It just came off like you were associating elitism with the Garmin crowd. Sorry I misinterpreted the statement. My bad. :D

 

As for the aspect of contributing to the community, has there ever been talk about offering "credits" for caches placed? Maybe each placed cache gives you one free month of PM access? I would be all for this. Fact is, someone placing a cache is probably spending more than the $3 and is definitely contributing. I would be all for crediting a person/group a free month of PM for every cache they place. :D Thoughts?

 

**Edit: If ther person still wanted to contribute extra to GC.com, they could as well. The credit system would just be a way to help out those that are placing a lot of caches. Just a thought.**

Edited by Dave&Stacy
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I don't think I automatically "deserve" access to every cache. Again, I simply think that the basics of caching should be available to all cachers, regardless of "how" they contribute. As I said, I think that the placement of quality caches and the respectful treatment of existing caches are a much bigger contribution to the sport than the $3 is. Does that make me better or worse than you? Neither, we simply contribute to the sport in different ways.

 

So again my question to you is: Why do you think i am not worthy to seek your caches but you are worthy (i.e. better) to seek mine?

 

snip

 

First - thank you for your non-premium-membership buying commitment. Placing caches is a decent and honorable thing to do and makes this game better for everyone. It does not make you better or worse than anyone. It does help the game and make it more fun for a broader audience.

 

Second - Based upon your contributions, you are definately worthy to seek all non-MOC caches. To earn the ability to seek MOC caches, you must pay a small fee for this feature and many others. Some think this is a good value and some don't. You are certainly free to make the choice to pay or not.

 

The basics of caching are defined by Groundspeak on this site. Therefore, MOC are part of the game as they define it. Maybe they make a little money off it - so what?

 

Personally, I place MOC caches for the sake of "filtering" those that can find my caches. It's a very crude filter, but it does tend to separate those that are more commited from those that are casual. Why do I do this? On the hope that more "committed" cachers will trade more fairly, re-hide better, complete more interesting log entries.

 

That stated: there are MANY commited cachers that are not Premium Members and there are many Premium Members that behave poorly in their caching manners. Like I said -- it's a crude filter.

 

Please do not take any Member-only cachers as a value judgement on who you are. They are a decision made by the cache placer. Personally, you may exclude me from any and all of the caches you place by any of the following methods: don't list, hide a micro, hide in an area I choose not to visit, etc, etc.

 

There is a wide enough and diverse enough "inventory" of caches that everyone should be able to carve out a few fun days of caching each month. I'm sorry if I choose not to share my caches with folks that choose not to support the site. Really though... isn't that my freedom of choice?

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
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So again my question to you is: Why is it that you think you automatically "deserve" access to every cache?

I don't think I automatically "deserve" access to every cache. Again, I simply think that the basics of caching should be available to all cachers, regardless of "how" they contribute.

 

So again my question to you is: Why do you think i am not worthy to seek your caches but you are worthy (i.e. better) to seek mine?

 

 

What? :wacko: You say the you don't deserve access in one sentence and then say that all caches should be available to everyone in the next. So which is it? Where do you stand?

 

Telling me that everything should be available to everyone regardless doesn't make sense anyway because some people's only contribution is to rob, steal and defile caches. If I'm willing to pay for the ability to try to hinder these activities, I'll use that choice anytime I see fit.

 

I don't have any PMOC caches. The only worthiness you need for our caches is the pleasure in taking a nice hike. When and if I decide to make one though it will be as a thank you to the people who are paying for this activity everyone who doesn't pay is enjoying for free (and that included me for a while). After a while it would be available to everyone just like many PMOCs I've seen.

 

You say "I simply think that the basics of caching should be available to all cachers, regardless of "how" they contribute" and they already do enjoy the basics. If they want premium features, they'll pay for them. I don't expect the V.I.P. lounge when I'm not willing to pay for it. I can still get what I want in the front room. You're not being excluded because you choose not pay. I don't understand the idea that "I should get it because I want it". PMOCs can be a deterent, an award, a handy tool, whatever the reason doesn't have to have anything to do with exclusion. After all, anyone who wants access can pay and receive it. I can't change how you view things. I can only show you another way of looking at them.

 

I'm worthy to seek your caches because you've been very generous in putting them out there and giving me that right. You didn't have to, but you chose to and I thank you for it. You're worthy to seek my regular caches, too. IF I build a PMOC it will be, as I said, a reward to people who have gone above and beyond by not just placing caches, but by also paying for the system that allows everyone to find those caches for free.

 

Instead of knocking the PMOCs, show me a better way to accomplish the same thing. Not just another way, but a better way and I'll support you on it. Anything that makes this system better is worth consideration. :D

 

edit for grammar

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
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I make no excuses. My PMOC's exclude those that don't pay.

 

It's really simple.

No pay - no PMOC from me! (or anyone else for that matter)

 

However, that is my decision to make. The point is: to take away my right to make this decision is limiting my freedom. As I pay for this right, I like it - so please don't take it away.

 

I do not take away any of your freedoms. You are free to pay or you are free to find non-PMOC caches (of which there are many, many, many)

 

Meanwhile, I also place non-MOC caches, and I also convert MOC to non-MOC caches once I have allowed the VIP's to find them. This is because I think that it helps others enjoy the hobby as well and promotes geocaching to a wider audience.

 

Who are the VIP's - the folks that pay, of course! They contribute financially and they get some benefits.

 

This is the nature of the game and I certainly respect that fact that you want all caches to be free for all to view and seek. I don't. Given that I am placing the cache - shouldn't that be my decision?

 

Oh ... and this is not placing a value decision on you. You are a fine and worthy human that I respect and value. Thank you for placing the caches you do.

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To Fox-and-the-Hound:

Wow...you have a knack for making my feelings jump all over the board! One second I'm steaming mad, and the following sentence I'm ready to buy you a beer and toast your logic! I may not agree with everything you say, but you make many valid points, and I certainly respect that. I doubt we'll ever completely agree on MOCs, but I would welcome the opportunity to cache with you at any rate.

 

To Lemon Fresh Dog:

You make many valid points as well, and I applaud the fact that you eventually convert MOCs to regular caches. That way you are rewarding those who contribute financially to the site, but not excluding those who contribute only in other ways. Ultimately, all I'm asking is for PMs to use MOCs sparingly and/or temporarily and not abandon the rest of us.

 

To all PMs:

You certainly have every right to place MOCs; that is without question. But I also have the right to my opinion that MOCs do more harm to the geocaching community than good. Evidence of that is the heated debates that rage every time the issue is brought up. I don't think there is any other topic that consistently gets 3, 4, or more pages of repies in a matter of days. Again, all I'm asking is for PMs to use them sparingly and/or temporarily. Non-PMs do contribute a great deal to this sport and everyone's enjoyment of it, including PMs.

Edited by 4x4van
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To Fox-and-the-Hound:

Wow...you have a knack for making my feelings jump all over the board! One second I'm steaming mad, and the following sentence I'm ready to buy you a beer and toast your logic! I may not agree with everything you say, but you make many valid points, and I certainly respect that. I doubt we'll ever completely agree on MOCs, but I would welcome the opportunity to cache with you at any rate.

 

To Lemon Fresh Dog:

You make many valid points as well, and I applaud the fact that you eventually convert MOCs to regular caches. That way you are rewarding those who contribute financially to the site, but not excluding those who contribute only in other ways. Ultimately, all I'm asking is for PMs to use MOCs sparingly and/or temporarily and not abandon the rest of us.

 

To all PMs:

You certainly have every right to place MOCs; that is without question. But I also have the right to my opinion that MOCs do more harm to the geocaching community than good. Evidence of that is the heated debates that rage every time the issue is brought up. I don't think there is any other topic that consistently gets 3, 4, or more pages of repies in a matter of days. Again, all I'm asking is for PMs to use them sparingly and/or temporarily. Non-PMs do contribute a great deal to this sport and everyone's enjoyment of it, including PMs.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I try to contribute to the community and appreciate that you recognize that I leave regular caches out. In fact, I teach a Geocaching course for the local Parks Department to introduce families to the hobby and during that event we create 6-8 "open" caches.

 

I'm not so sure I would agree with the concept of PM caches harming the hobby. This could be said of many cache types (I'm not really a huge Micro cache fan), but it's not supported by any evidence. In fact, one *could* argue that creating an incentive for folks to contribute financially to this site is doing the opposite - it is generating revenue for operations which helps the hobby grow and keep up with growth.

 

My personal opinion is that the only caches that are a detriment to the hobby are those full of poor items, in risky locations (without warning), and/or in poor taste to the general public. It is these types of caches that make the experience of caching less appealing to those trying it out and thinking about making it a hobby.

 

Generally, any cache I make a PM cache will contain "better" trade items and be in a "premier" location. This is because my audience profile is going to be more sophisticated (generalization) and because of reasons mentioned above related to trading. I've had several "open" caches raided for trade items after only a short period of time. Once bitten, twice shy.

 

On a funny (and slightly sarcastic) side-note: Have you ever noticed there aren't many Member-Only Micros?

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
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Generally, any cache I make a PM cache will contain "better" trade items and be in a "premier" location.

Us non-PM members like "premier" locations, as well. Don't just throw us the lamp-post leftovers, please!

 

On a funny (and slightly sarcastic) side-note: Have you ever noticed there aren't many Member-Only Micros?

:D Now there's something I hadn't thought of!!

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... I don't think there is any other topic that consistently gets 3, 4, or more pages of repies in a matter of days. ...
Really? I dare you to use any of the following phrases in a thread topic:

 

'All caches need Express permission'

'Micros are Lame'

'XXXXX caches should not be allowed'

'Jeremy owes me an apology'

'Bring back LCs'

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... I don't think there is any other topic that consistently gets 3, 4, or more pages of repies in a matter of days. ...
Really? I dare you to use any of the following phrases in a thread topic:

 

'All caches need Express permission'

'Micros are Lame'

'XXXXX caches should not be allowed'

'Jeremy owes me an apology'

'Bring back LCs'

 

haha! You are very correct.

 

Here's another:

 

Cheaters should be XXXXX

Rules for XXXXX

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... I don't think there is any other topic that consistently gets 3, 4, or more pages of repies in a matter of days. ...
Really? I dare you to use any of the following phrases in a thread topic:

 

'All caches need Express permission'

'Micros are Lame'

'XXXXX caches should not be allowed'

'Jeremy owes me an apology'

'Bring back LCs'

haha! You are very correct.

 

Here's another:

 

Cheaters should be XXXXX

Rules for XXXXX

Who has the most finds?
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... I don't think there is any other topic that consistently gets 3, 4, or more pages of repies in a matter of days. ...
Really? I dare you to use any of the following phrases in a thread topic:

 

'All caches need Express permission'

'Micros are Lame'

'XXXXX caches should not be allowed'

'Jeremy owes me an apology'

'Bring back LCs'

haha! You are very correct.

 

Here's another:

 

Cheaters should be XXXXX

Rules for XXXXX

Who has the most finds?

 

Numbers Don't Matter....

 

Hahaha....oh man ... this list could go ON

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I'm not a rich person, but I highly recommend trying a premium membership for a month. It gives you the satisfaction of knowing you've supported a good cause and it allows you certain features that really add to the experience of geocaching. It also helps the Groundspeak bunch with their server costs and the more we pay the less chance we'll ever see annoying pop-up adds on cache pages.

 

And anyone who has ever used GSAK, in conjunction with a one-time premium membership, knows that you can "circumvent" the system by having all MOC's loaded into GSAK for the one-time fee of $3.00. Adding the MOC's to your watchlist gives you any updated logs, and I believe (I may be wrong on this) you still receive instant cache notifications in your area even if your premium membership has expired.

 

I personally use this system throughout the year, ponying up $3 every 3 or 4 months in order to update the gpx files in gsak. Bottom line is $12 tops per year. That's 3 cents per day. If you complain about that then you're obviously ranting just for the sake of ranting.

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I think that everyone should pay...after all, you are using this site...and this costs money to run and be updated (equipment, electric, employees...etc.). Do you believe that others should foot the bill for you?

 

I agree - 60 day free trial woth PQs and everything available, then pay or go away!

 

Lots of cachers are lucky that TPTB at the Frog Palace are nicer than I! :)

I'm With you , How do the non members think this sight stays on with out paying members. I think It would stop a lot of kidnapping and vandalizing of caches. Dilligas45

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I'm With you , How do the non members think this sight stays on with out paying members. I think It would stop a lot of kidnapping and vandalizing of caches. Dilligas45
I think that everyone should pay...after all, you are using this site...and this costs money to run and be updated (equipment, electric, employees...etc.). Do you believe that others should foot the bill for you?

I agree - 60 day free trial woth PQs and everything available, then pay or go away!

 

Lots of cachers are lucky that TPTB at the Frog Palace are nicer than I! :)

I guess that you missed this post by Jeremy:

As Jake.Hazelip and JamieZ indicated (as well as some others), traditional geocaching itself will never be a pay to play service. ...
This has been a recording... <BEEP> Edited by sbell111
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Just looked at the caches in the area surrounding one of the OP's cache placements. I will say this: There is an unusually large number of MOCs there.

 

I don't know how it is for everyone else, but in my surrounding are it's the total opposite of that. We're talking maybe ONE MOC for every couple of dozen (or more) caches. Because of this we saw no reason to be paying members when we first joined Geocaching.com. However, as our obsession with caching grew, we decided that $30 per year was a very resonable fee to access the Premium Member features and, more importantly, to support a site and a sport that we absolutely LOVE. We are avid campers/hikers/RVers, and geocaching has added a whole new spin to our favorite recreational activities. The joy we get out of caching is totally worth the $30 a year and we have no problem paying it.

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It is worth the $30.00 a year just for the intertainment this forum delivers. On a serious note I don't mind paying a fee for something this much fun God knows I spend much more on things I enjoy far less. I also don't mind someone enjoying what my small contribution helps provide. I do however think those that are hitch hiking shouldn't complain they don't like sitting in the back seat. Thanks for the ride. Cladius and three dogs.

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It is worth the $30.00 a year just for the intertainment this forum delivers. On a serious note I don't mind paying a fee for something this much fun God knows I spend much more on things I enjoy far less. I also don't mind someone else enjoying what my small contribution helps provide. I do however think those that are hitch hiking shouldn't complain they don't like sitting in the back seat. Thanks for the ride. Cladius and three dogs.

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