my logs s*ck

[+jmmhooper]

I want to reiterate that brutally honest logs don't need to be mean spirited, nor do they need to be personal attacks.

Agreed.

 

Here's a recent example (GCVCWF) where I posted a couple of notes which were brutally honest, yet as friendly and diplomatic as I could manage. I had a concern about the cache, and decided that it was too important to ignore. I handled it the way I would have liked for it to have been done for me if I were the owner. (Start with my DNF log* dated Sept 26.)

 

That was over a month ago. It may be too early to tell if the cache is 'virtually archived,' but so far my notes seem to have dissuaded others from hunting the cache. Considering the issue, that's probably a good thing. The owner hasn't contacted me or deleted my notes, but neither has he done anything yet to address the problem. The cache is on my watch list.

 

*(Note: I posted those under my CaptRussell account. I cache as CaptRussell when I'm on the road with my job, and as KBI for all other caching.)

 

(If I ever encounter a cache with "schizophrenia" in the title, I'll log that one under both names. )

 

IMPORTANT: I would like to request that no one else post any notes or SBAs there as a result of this forum post alone. If you've been there or are planning a trip to McAllen then be my guest, but it is not my intent for my forum post to generate a debate on this poor guy's cache page. I'm merely illustrating an example of what I believe is a truthfully-honest-yet-friendly cache page log.

 

Again, I don't get it, why get into any of that complaining. You see where it is you don't like the location then don't go after it. No one forces any of us to go after a cache. Why sit there and complain about it? Move to the next cache on your list.

[+KBI]

Again, I don't get it, why get into any of that complaining. You see where it is you don't like the location then don't go after it.

Really? Where on the cache page does it describe the large NO TRESPASSING signs that are posted at each gate to that cemetery? Please tell me how I was supposed to know about that in advance.

 

No one forces any of us to go after a cache. Why sit there and complain about it?

Documenting the existence of the NO TRESPASSING signs for the benefit of those who are considering the cache has the same effect as Kit Fox's excellent idea to post photos of homeless encampments and trash dumpsters. Doing so does NOT constitute a "complaint." It merely gives potential cache seekers advance warning of what they will see anyway if they attempt to find the cache.

 

Move to the next cache on your list.

Good idea. Had such a note been posted before my visit to that cache I might have been able to save myself the trouble. Not only could I have moved to the next cache on my list -- I would have had time to walk to other caches that day after eliminating that cache from my list.

[+jmmhooper]

How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did

[+Kit Fox]

How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did

 

Perhaps the signs were recently added, or (believe it or not) there are cachers who purposely ignore trespassing signs, and posted rules, all in the hunt for that "elusive smiley." I know of one cacher who took all his kids with them, in the hunt for FTF. He taught his kids that posted hours at a known hiking trail, were not important, when FTF is on the line. He found the caches around 11:00 pm, when the park closed at sunset.

[+jmmhooper]

How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did

 

Perhaps the signs were recently added, or (believe it or not) there are cachers who purposely ignore trespassing signs, and posted rules, all in the hunt for that "elusive smiley." I know of one cacher who took all his kids with them, in the hunt for FTF. He taught his kids that posted hours at a known hiking trail, were not important, when FTF is on the line. He found the caches around 11:00 pm, when the park closed at sunset.

 

If signs were recently added, then they were added after he placed the cache so why quote the rules and regs on his cache page?

 

Sounds like some sour grapes that he beat you to it. I would say that is his business as far as as what he teaches his kids why is it your concern?

[+KBI]

How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did

Good question. Who knows? Everyone has their own unique set of standards.

 

The signs didn't look new. Maybe they were, in which case the owner and future cache hunters needed to know. If they weren't, then future cache hunters needed to know, and the owner needed to be reminded.

 

Like I said: If I were the owner, that's how I would have wanted it handled. My DNF log was short and sweet and to the point. It wasn't until the owner casually blew off my concern that I expanded on the issue with another note. I did not post a SBA -- I don't think that was appropriate in this case.

[+Kit Fox]

 

Sounds like some sour grapes that he beat you to it. I would say that is his business as far as as what he teaches his kids why is it your concern?

 

 

He stated in his online logs that he found four (not three) caches on the trail after 10pm (park closes at sunset)

 

Ignoring the posted rules, laws, or county ordinances, in the hunt for FTF, gives geocaching as a whole a very bad rap. Suppose the city government was made aware of cachers purposely sneaking into the park, to hunt geocaches at night. Suppose they get upset about the "rule breakers" and enact a policy banning geocaching on their trails. Now all these caches get removed by the city. There are plenty of examples of caches being outlawed by land managers (throughout the US) because of "negative perceptions," as well as illegal activity being done by cachers.

 

These caches could be at risk because of cavalier atttudes like yours.

 

I have 120 FTFs I can afford to skip four of them, and obey the law, which I took the oath to upload. Teaching your kids to break rules is unacceptable. Parents are supposed to set a good example!

 

Off Topic

 

I'm starting to think you either like to "have the last word," or you enjoy wording your posts to illicit negative responses.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Kit Fox

[+jmmhooper]

 

Sounds like some sour grapes that he beat you to it. I would say that is his business as far as as what he teaches his kids why is it your concern?

 

 

He stated in his online logs that he found four (not three) caches on the trail after 10pm (park closes at sunset)

 

Ignoring the posted rules, laws, or county ordinances, in the hunt for FTF, gives geocaching as a whole a very bad rap. Suppose the city government was made aware of cachers purposely sneaking into the park, to hunt geocaches at night. Suppose they get upset about the "rule breakers" and enact a policy banning geocaching on their trails. Now all these caches get removed by the city.

 

These caches could be at risk because of cavalier atttudes like yours, and the FTF huntert.

 

I have 120 FTFs I can afford to skip four of them, and obey the law, which I took the oath to upload. Teaching your kids to break rules is unacceptable. Parents are supposed to set a good example!

 

Off Topic

 

I'm starting to think you either like to "have the last word," or you enjoy wording your posts to illicit negative responses.

 

No, I really wanted to know why you were so concerned take care of your own life. Do you have proof he was caught thus giving geocachers a bad rap? Seems you are only one that thinks he broke the rules?

[+Kit Fox]

Do you have proof he was caught thus giving geocachers a bad rap? Seems you are only one that thinks he broke the rules?

 

He didn't need to get caught to do damage. His four online logs still stand today. A city council member would simply need to make an account at GC.com, and read all the online logs.

 

You should do a forum search of "South Carolina." The legislature used online cache logs, as well as photographs on cache pages, to argue their point to ban caches in cemetaries, and Historic areas.

 

Online logs of illegal activity are quite damming, if the right person uses them to further their agenda.

 

We need to stop derailing this topic, and go back to "sucky logs." Feel free to PM me, or start a new forum topic, if you want to continue the debate.

[+KBI]

How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did

No, I really wanted to know why you were so concerned take care of your own life. Do you have proof he was caught thus giving geocachers a bad rap? Seems you are only one that thinks he broke the rules?

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Your position is that you believe ignoring rules and breaking laws is OK when done for the purpose of geocaching. Is that correct? It bothers you for some reason when such appalling behavior is pointed out by other geocachers. Is that also correct? Is that why you’re here defending uncouth cachers who ignore "No Trespassing" signs and "Park Closes at Sunset" signs?

 

If not, then what, exactly, is your point?

[+jmmhooper]

Do you have proof he was caught thus giving geocachers a bad rap? Seems you are only one that thinks he broke the rules?

 

He didn't need to get caught to do damage. His four online logs still stand today. A city council member would simply need to make an account at GC.com, and read all the online logs.

 

You should do a forum search of "South Carolina." The legislature used online cache logs, as well as photographs on cache pages, to argue their point to ban caches in cemetaries, and Historic areas.

 

Online logs of illegal activity are quite damming, if the right person uses them to further their agenda.

 

We need to stop derailing this topic, and go back to "sucky logs." Feel free to PM me, or start a new forum topic, if you want to continue the debate.

Sorry, what you just said boggles my mind.

[+jmmhooper]

How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did

No, I really wanted to know why you were so concerned take care of your own life. Do you have proof he was caught thus giving geocachers a bad rap? Seems you are only one that thinks he broke the rules?

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Your position is that you believe ignoring rules and breaking laws is OK when done for the purpose of geocaching. Is that correct? It bothers you for some reason when such appalling behavior is pointed out by other geocachers. Is that also correct? Is that why you’re here defending uncouth cachers who ignore "No Trespassing" signs and "Park Closes at Sunset" signs?

 

If not, then what, exactly, is your point?

 

My point is you sound like the geocache police. Scrutinizing logs to see when parks close, if no trespassing signs are there and others are disobeying.

 

It is not my position breaking rues and laws is okay, it is my positon that I think it is none of your business if they did. I am not defending anyone I am voicing my opinion, as you are.

[+KBI]

My point is you sound like the geocache police. Scrutinizing logs to see when parks close, if no trespassing signs are there and others are disobeying.

 

It is not my position breaking rues and laws is okay, it is my positon that I think it is none of your business if they did. I am not defending anyone I am voicing my opinion, as you are.

You're right: It's none of my business whether previous finders of that cache violated a No Trespassing sign. I never said it was.

 

You've got me confused with someone else. I never said anything about whether anyone else was breaking any rules. You were the one who brought that up. You even seemed to be defending their behavior when you said "How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did."

 

My only reason for posting in this thread was to illustrate what I thought was a good example of how to log a concern about a cache without being mean about it.

 

I saw a No Trespassing sign. I chose to respect the sign, which is why I DNF-ed the geocache. I noted that in my log. I even said, very specifically, in my subsequent note on the cache page: "I’m not here to try to tell anyone else how to play the game." Where in any of that did I express any interest in whether others were complying?

 

If you're feeling defensive or guilty about something, that's got nothing to do with me.

[+Kit Fox]

Sorry, what you just said boggles my mind.

 

Geocaching May Be Outlawed In South Carolina, House Bill H.3777

 

South Carolina Legislation Meeting

 

Here is where online logs as well as photographs were used to pass her bill.

 

Ten minutes before the meeting, the sponsor of the legislation enters the meeting room and she sets up material for her presentation. In addition to lots of printed material, she sets of two large poster boards on an easel at the front of the room. These poster boards are covered with text from log entries from finders who were logging cemetery caches, as well photographs they had taken while within the cemetery. They had done their research well, and they were displaying the worst of the worst.

 

(I'm working with the Representative to identify every picture and every log entry, and rest assured that I will post them all here once they have been identified. In the meantime, I will have to describe what was displayed.)

 

There were photographs of groups of people out night-caching, posing for a group photograph as they leaned against old grave markers.

 

There were photographs of caches that had been found, temporarily resting atop prominent gravestones so that a picture could be taken.

 

There were several pictures of people lying on the ground right next to markers, and getting

their pictures taken so that their smiling face, the marker and their GPS were all visible.

 

There were log entries too, some of these said things like:

"There was a freshly dug grave but no one was in it yet, this was so cool."

"It was great fun spooky fun to be out at night in the graveyard."

 

There were many more pictures and logs as well, and over and over they underscored the "game" aspect of this pasttime, and they showed the worst practices engaged in while cache hunting in grave yards. These images and logs, which had been freely provided by Geocachers in their own log entries, were incredibly damning evidence. They were appalling, and not one of us there could take a stand and defend those practices.

 

It turns out quite a few parts of her evidence had nothing to do with cemetaries, but online logs can be used to ban geocaching in certain areas.

 

A negative perception of geocaching held by land managers, is far more dangerous than a "brutally honest" log on a lame cache. I'd much rather find caches on scenic trails where caching has not been outlawed, then be left with nothing to find but "parking lot caches."

Edited October 29, 2006 by Kit Fox

[Neos2]

Back on topic.

 

I don't see the connection between good logs and needing to exaggerate about the quality of a cache? (As the title implies).

 

I don't particularly feel that the only thing I can talk about in the logs is the actual cache. If the cache itself is less than stellar, I can certainly focus on some other aspect of the hunt for the cache.

 

In the past, I have found myself writing about the wonderful/terrible weather that day, the route to the cache, or perhaps the funny thing my husband said while we were on our way there (He is always good for something like that, funny man). At the very least I mention the condition of the cache and thank the hider for placing it there for me to find.

 

If I really love a cache, a container, a view from the cache, or something else about the experience, you'll know it. I wax enthusiastic, and use lots of adjectives or even superlatives. Anyone who knows my style of writing can read between the lines.

 

I suppose my real point is that it isn't my place to judge a cache for others. What is great to me might be plain to you, or I might be a grouch that day. I don't feel the need to try to manipulate every cache owner into hiding only caches that I think are just swell by insulting them--not even as mildly as by saying "Hey, your cache was fairly mundane" Chances are I could have gone to the cache on another day and had a totally different experience. So I just find something to say and go on about my fun.

 

If you think about it, any cache experience is a total of the cache itself, the company you are in, the kind of day you are having, the weather, the mood you are in, and so forth.

[+jmmhooper]

Sorry, what you just said boggles my mind.

 

Geocaching May Be Outlawed In South Carolina, House Bill H.3777

 

South Carolina Legislation Meeting

 

Here is where online logs as well as photographs were used to pass her bill.

 

Ten minutes before the meeting, the sponsor of the legislation enters the meeting room and she sets up material for her presentation. In addition to lots of printed material, she sets of two large poster boards on an easel at the front of the room. These poster boards are covered with text from log entries from finders who were logging cemetery caches, as well photographs they had taken while within the cemetery. They had done their research well, and they were displaying the worst of the worst.

 

(I'm working with the Representative to identify every picture and every log entry, and rest assured that I will post them all here once they have been identified. In the meantime, I will have to describe what was displayed.)

 

There were photographs of groups of people out night-caching, posing for a group photograph as they leaned against old grave markers.

 

There were photographs of caches that had been found, temporarily resting atop prominent gravestones so that a picture could be taken.

 

There were several pictures of people lying on the ground right next to markers, and getting

their pictures taken so that their smiling face, the marker and their GPS were all visible.

 

There were log entries too, some of these said things like:

"There was a freshly dug grave but no one was in it yet, this was so cool."

"It was great fun spooky fun to be out at night in the graveyard."

 

There were many more pictures and logs as well, and over and over they underscored the "game" aspect of this pasttime, and they showed the worst practices engaged in while cache hunting in grave yards. These images and logs, which had been freely provided by Geocachers in their own log entries, were incredibly damning evidence. They were appalling, and not one of us there could take a stand and defend those practices.

 

It turns out quite a few parts of her evidence had nothing to do with cemetaries, but online logs can be used to ban geocaching in certain areas.

 

A negative perception of geocaching held by land managers, is far more dangerous than a "brutally honest" log on a lame cache. I'd much rather find caches on scenic trails where caching has not been outlawed, then be left with nothing to find but "parking lot caches."

Makes me thank my lucky stars I live in Colorado. I guess we are not as uptight as folks back east

[+jmmhooper]

My point is you sound like the geocache police. Scrutinizing logs to see when parks close, if no trespassing signs are there and others are disobeying.

 

It is not my position breaking rues and laws is okay, it is my positon that I think it is none of your business if they did. I am not defending anyone I am voicing my opinion, as you are.

You're right: It's none of my business whether previous finders of that cache violated a No Trespassing sign. I never said it was.

 

You've got me confused with someone else. I never said anything about whether anyone else was breaking any rules. You were the one who brought that up. You even seemed to be defending their behavior when you said "How come no one else had a problem with it? just you did."

 

My only reason for posting in this thread was to illustrate what I thought was a good example of how to log a concern about a cache without being mean about it.

 

I saw a No Trespassing sign. I chose to respect the sign, which is why I DNF-ed the geocache. I noted that in my log. I even said, very specifically, in my subsequent note on the cache page: "I’m not here to try to tell anyone else how to play the game." Where in any of that did I express any interest in whether others were complying?

 

If you're feeling defensive or guilty about something, that's got nothing to do with me.

 

Does KBI stands for Kache Breau of Investigation

[+IGJoe]

BACK on topic, AGAIN!

 

Log that a cache is lame? No, that's rude. If you dont' have anything nice to say then just say TFTC and be done with it. Be aware of the hider and ignore his hides if it becomes a pattern.

 

Log that a cache has container/area/hide problems? Absolutely. I've logged (in a DNF) that a cache was too close to private property for my taste. However that same cache did have a clever concept and I made sure I mentioned that too.

 

As for my cache (and hopefully my future ones) I would much rather get your real opinion than find out you didn't like it and we're simply 'being polite'.

[+KBI]

Does KBI stands for Kache Breau of Investigation

I'll take that as a "no response."

[+jmmhooper]

Does KBI stands for Kache Breau of Investigation

I'll take that as a "no response."

I will take KBI stands for Kache Breau of Investigation as a true statement

[+KBI]

I will take KBI stands for Kache Breau of Investigation as a true statement

You're welcome to make fun of my account name all you like. Trust me, it entertains me more than it does you.

 

I'll assume, however, that you're doing so because you have nothing further of value to add to the current discussion. That's fine with me also, but I must offer a friendly warning that some of the moderators around here like giving timeouts to those who revert to personal attacks.

 

[+jmmhooper]

I will take KBI stands for Kache Breau of Investigation as a true statement

You're welcome to make fun of my account name all you like. Trust me, it entertains me more than it does you.

 

I'll assume, however, that you're doing so because you have nothing further of value to add to the current discussion. That's fine with me also, but I must offer a friendly warning that some of the moderators around here like giving timeouts to those who revert to personal attacks.

 

 

Well said sorry I made you so mad

[+KBI]

Well said sorry I made you so mad

I think you read my smilie upside-downie.

[+jmmhooper]

Well said sorry I made you so mad

I think you read my smilie upside-downie.

 

No No I now know you guys are real serious about all this stuff. That I, out west, take as something fun to do with my kids and go out to see the beautiful state of Colorado. I log it and search out more to do with my kids and they have fun.

 

It seems to have morphed into some petty back stabbing activity back east.

 

So again sorry

[+KBI]

Sounds like some sour grapes that he beat you to it. I would say that is his business as far as as what he teaches his kids why is it your concern?

I'm starting to think you either like to "have the last word," or you enjoy wording your posts to illicit negative responses.

I think Kit Fox is smarter than me.

[+jmmhooper]

Sounds like some sour grapes that he beat you to it. I would say that is his business as far as as what he teaches his kids why is it your concern?

I'm starting to think you either like to "have the last word," or you enjoy wording your posts to illicit negative responses.

I think Kit Fox is smarter than me.

 

No just voicing my opinion. Did I say something that offended you? I did not mean to.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If you just state the facts and not editorialize then you can't be faulted for your posting.

 

"I outran the bull, dug through a pile of garbage and was shot at by a landowner. Thanks!"

Pardon me for elbowing past the flame war and getting back to the topic.

 

I like what BlueDeuce said. If I keep my posts habitually objective and without emotion I find that most people see what they want to see in my intent, and they usually see a positive response. I try to limit direct criticism to things that can be reasonably changed about that cache, and I try to present it as a note of helpful advice, not as an attack. I only state things in a subjectively positive way if I feel that the cache was significantly better than most.

 

Having said that, we did once find a cache that required us to log online with whatever word was next in a list of vocabulary words inside the cache, and our word was "jeremiad." We logged a jeremiad. I followed the log with an apollogy.

 

And, then, sometimes I just have to break my own rules.

 

Our first of two caches got a homeless-muggle-type criticism that we were thankful for. The homeless person came and went, but we were better off for having been able to move the cache in the meantime, and prospective finders emailed their appreciation for our having moved it.

[+biosearch]

Hopefully this will be considered on topic.

 

I've only placed one cache and look forward to any comments that I get from those that find it, or don't find it. I will take the logs and use it to guide what I do in the future. If fellow cachers are not honest it does me no good. However, much like this thread/topic, if the logs degrade into something that is basically a flame, I will consider it, but more than likely be less inclined to use the information for my future caches.

 

I am out to hide caches that will be enjoyable to others.

 

While cache placement in certain places is a topic that should probably be discussed somewhere else, the logs that give the hobby a bad image is on topic. One thing that can be done about this is read the logs for your caches. If you believe that a log paints a bad picture of the hobby, e-mail the geocacher who logged it, ask them to change it and give them a reason why, and if they refuse to, delete it. It is your cache, you have the ability to do so, take responsibility for your cache, take responsibility for your impact on the hobby.