Replacing A Destroyed Station

[+BuckBrooke]

From discussion, I think that putting a station back in place is something we shouldn't do. I've emailed the fellow.

[Photobuff]

Yikes! Don't want to do that. I investigated resetting or replacing a destroyed station via the NGS or the NYSDOT, and the number of problems are too many to mention. Somebody just sticking one at an arbitrary location could cause no end of troubles if it was accidentally used.

[mloser]

I have already addressed this situation with the hunter. I will be visiting that station tonight and getting pics to prove it was destroyed and submit them to Deb. Since the monument is completely loose I expect to be picking it up also. I work 3 miles from that mark and live 5 miles from it so it is an easy grab for me. He lives about 40 miles from it.

[mloser]

FYI, I have taken pictures of this destroyed mark and submitted them to Deb Brown of the NGS to be marked as destroyed.

[+PFF]

Good work, folks!

 

I saw that notation in the photo gallery and cringed!

 

By the way, any comments about his use of orange paint? Pro, or Con?

See KW3090, KW1292, AB7644, AB6515, etc, etc.

 

Paul

Edited April 4, 2006 by PFF

[ArtMan]

By the way, any comments about his use of orange paint? Pro, or Con?

Sure, I'll comment. I know profession surveyors will paint a monument (or an adjacent surface), tie flagging on nearby objects, and otherwise tag a location, presumably so it can be easily identified on the next visit. I know professionals do this, and they have good reason to do so. I don't really think it's our place to add to the visual clutter for what, after all, is just a hobby. I view flagging as less objectionable, because it can easily be removed. Painting a substantial concrete object a bright color might strike some — particularly the owner of the property — as a criminal act.

 

-ArtMan-

[+Ernmark]

..I'd worry about having the authorities pick me up for vandalism...how 'bout orange survey tape instead ?

[+Renegade Knight]

From discussion, I think that putting a station back in place is something we shouldn't do. I've emailed the fellow.

 

Not only a bad idea, it's against the law unless he happens to be a surveyor.

[+BuckBrooke]

Anyone want to email him on that? Hmm, interesting log for the World Trade Towers

Edited April 4, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

Paint vs. flagging? I'm inclined to agree with Artman that as hobbiests, we should not add to the visual clutter. As a professional, I tend to lean toward the flagging instead of paint, and I do think that some survey crews get carried away with the paint at times. Paint is sometimes necessary though. Yes, flagging can be removed easily, but most people (not just surveyors) don't remove the flagging they've tied, and most other people don't remove it either as they don't know what it's for. As a benchmark hunter who ties flagging near a found mark, are you going to remove the flagging later? and if so, after how long? From a pro-paint standpoint: orange, day-glo paint will fade to white and then fade away after about a season. Survey flagging can hang around for years, especially if it is not in direct sunlight.

 

As far as replacing the benchmark being against the law: it may or may not be. Whether it is or not, it should not be done in any circumstance. It should always be left in the condition it's found. There is a penalty for disturbing monuments. That penalty varies with the type of monument, the setting/owning agency, and the aggressiveness of that agency in prosecuting the people who disturb the monuments. That penalty can be imposed on surveyors who are not contracted to move, replace, or otherwise disturb the original monument. The intent of the law is to protect the monument's original position. If the monument is found out of its original position, and moved from there, the 'Do Not Disturb' law may not have been broken, unless you consider 'original' position to be 'found' position.

 

- Kewaneh

[+mcl143]

I have already addressed this situation with the hunter. I will be visiting that station tonight and getting pics to prove it was destroyed and submit them to Deb. Since the monument is completely loose I expect to be picking it up also. I work 3 miles from that mark and live 5 miles from it so it is an easy grab for me. He lives about 40 miles from it.

 

I guess I am confused. Haven't found too many benchmarks, but I love hunting them. When you say you expect to be picking it up. What does that mean? Would you actually remove it? Do you send it back to the NGS?

 

Sorry if this a common question. I just wanted to know why it would be legal for you to remove the mark. I can't imagine it is ok for people to take a mark just because destroyed.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I have already addressed this situation with the hunter. I will be visiting that station tonight and getting pics to prove it was destroyed and submit them to Deb. Since the monument is completely loose I expect to be picking it up also. I work 3 miles from that mark and live 5 miles from it so it is an easy grab for me. He lives about 40 miles from it.

 

I guess I am confused. Haven't found too many benchmarks, but I love hunting them. When you say you expect to be picking it up. What does that mean? Would you actually remove it? Do you send it back to the NGS?

 

Sorry if this a common question. I just wanted to know why it would be legal for you to remove the mark. I can't imagine it is ok for people to take a mark just because destroyed.

 

 

mcl143, what mloser meant was, after getting a reply from Deb at the NGS and being asked by her to remove the benchmmark (so it doesn't get used by accident) he will go back & retrieve it.

 

John

[+BuckBrooke]

I've run across several New Mexico State Highway Commission disks that have PIDs that are destroyed. I have to officially prove to Deb w/ the NGS that it was destroyed and then notify the NM DOT (they don't require photos if I've proved it's destroyed to the NGS' satisfaction) before getting the disks.

[+PFF]

I suppose I could mail this one back. (The disk is still mounted in the cement.)

 

Will Deb pay the postage? [grin]

 

 

EZ5453, "BARBEE", Durham, North Carolina

[mloser]

One thing I have noticed is that Deb doesn't even respond to my emails of destroyed marks any more. We have talked by email quite a bit over the last couple of years so I think we have somewhat of a professional relationship going. I don't know if she doesn't answer because she knows I know she will mark them destroyed, unless she says otherwise (and she has denied a few!), or if it is related to her situation.

 

PFF, you have a unique situation because the monument is of course no longer needed since there is a reset. If you want that disk you might show Deb the documentation of what exists at that station and see how she feels about the old disk and the old monument. I can't see that it would be any use to anyone. Sounds like the reset disk is pretty well unusable too. One thing about tri-stations is that the RMs can be used to find the underground mark or to reset the original, if a crew is so inclined. That means that it is harder to get a tri-station destroyed if the RMs exist.

 

A little tip--an 8 pound sledge with a long handle will take care of that monument in about 10 hits. RIDGEVIEW

 

Oldfarts--exactly. In theory the disk is to be sent back to NGS, but I have a connection! Actually, they used to want the disk back to prove it was destroyed. Now photographic evidence works better. I can imagine that some folks would bust a disk out of a monument that they thought was destroyed and send it back, but in reality it may have been usable. Although I didn't post a pic of it, KW820 is an example of a mark I thought was destroyed but Deb said since it was still solid in the ground but tilted to submit it as Poor and let survey crews determine if they want to use it. If I had sent the disk back it definitely WOULD have been destroyed! So leaving the determination up to the professionals is best.

 

Back to the mark in question (our orange painted one). Since the monument is broken off and the remainder of the base is nowhere to be found, there is no question that it will be marked as destroyed. These precast posts of the 1930s and 1940s (in our area almost all of them date to 1942) are prone to breakage. They are not reinforced so all it takes is a sharp blow and they crack.

 

To add my two cents on painting marks, I don't agree with it at all. In some cases all we are doing is making them more prone to vandalization. For the most part we should try to describe them to be easy to find for those who know how to get the datasheets, but not for casual observers. We have probably all spent time hiking to some remote mountain top just to find that it is/was a popular teen hangout and that with some time on their hands they had destroyed the disks mounted there.

 

Has anyone else heard back from Sclave? I know he was unsure what to do with the monument when he found it, so he did what he thought was the good thing and put it back. Somewhere. Close. But he also had a feeling that putting it back was wrong. The situation has been corrected and he has learned from it, so all is well.