Oga Membership?

[+Team Oodi]

Perhaps a silly question. But what are the benefits of an OGA (Ontario Geocaching Association) membership?

[+The Blue Quasar]

Actual benefits wise... well let's see

 

The most significant reason is to be able show groups like the various government groups (Parks Canada, Ontario Parks, Local Conservation Authorities and city parks, and similar) that there is a large number of people that enjoy Geocaching. Being able to provide 'numbers promotes the activity far more than one person going to these groups hoping to place caches. It also shows the groups that there is a network of people behind the activity.

 

Most of these groups feel reassured knowing that Geocaching is a large organization, and since Groundspeak cannot provide raw data related to the number of participants, at least we can start to give them an idea of hundreds of people.

 

And as these groups are aware, only a percentage of participants will actually join a group, they can extrapolate the probable interest level in Geocaching.

 

When we (OGA) talks to groups, we can show that there are certain amounts of cachers in a region and help coordinate local support if they request it. Let's face it, government groups usually only talk to other groups because they want to know that their concerns can be met as well, or at least get input from people that have experience and worked out guidelines for themselves.

 

Also, as a member, being able to participate in the contests we run. Whether that be voting on picture contests, or winning prizes.

 

 

The site for the most part is for information to the local cacher, and a place to get files that aren't available here. You don't need to be an OGA Member to get those from our site.

 

We do provide these files, like regional boundaries for Ontario, and some lists to link to Archived caches for educational purposes. We would hope that these as well inspire people to join OGA to show support for our efforts.

 

I hope that helps. I'm sure there are other reasons too.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+Keith Watson]

Since it's creation, over two years ago, what accomplishments has the OGA had in dealing with land owners? I mean as an entity, not just a OGA members taking it on as themselves?

Edited March 20, 2006 by Keith Watson

[+lostndazed]

I can't speak for anyone else but I joined OGA to show support for geocaching in Ontario. I think geocaching needs a voice in the province and you have to appreciate the people who so generously give of their time to promote and support the geocaching community.

[+Keith Watson]

Since the topic has been opened I have a few more questions.

 

After doing some research into other Geocaching organizations and associations I have noticed that the OGA may be lacking in a few areas as compared to others.

 

1) Does the OGA have insurance to protect itself, it’s executive, and or its operating funds should litigation be brought against the OGA.

 

2) Has the OGA incorporated? If not, why not? Wouldn’t it be in the OGA executive’s best interest to incorporate to protect it self from things like item 1?

 

3) Does the OGA have a set of by-laws and or a constitution? If so, why is it not posted on the site as such?

 

4) Does the OGA hold regular elections for their executive? If so, when are they?

 

5) After dealing in the past and recently with privacy legislation, I have noticed that the OGA web site seems to be lacking in some of it’s required privacy information. Does the OGA plan to update this information? Does the OGA also plan to give a break down on information collection, access, correction, and retention policies?

 

6) Why is a geocaching.com alias required for membership? Can’t the OGA be open to anyone who whishes to join, or do they only recognize geocacing.com for geocaching?

 

7) If the cost for a life time membership is $5.00, how does the OGA plan on generating recurring revenue to sustain itself?

[+The Blue Quasar]

1) Does the OGA have insurance to protect itself, it’s executive, and or its operating funds should litigation be brought against the OGA.

 

2) Has the OGA incorporated? If not, why not? Wouldn’t it be in the OGA executive’s best interest to incorporate to protect it self from things like item 1?

 

3) Does the OGA have a set of by-laws and or a constitution? If so, why is it not posted on the site as such?

 

4) Does the OGA hold regular elections for their executive? If so, when are they?

 

5) After dealing in the past and recently with privacy legislation, I have noticed that the OGA web site seems to be lacking in some of it’s required privacy information. Does the OGA plan to update this information? Does the OGA also plan to give a break down on information collection, access, correction, and retention policies?

 

6) Why is a geocaching.com alias required for membership? Can’t the OGA be open to anyone who whishes to join, or do they only recognize geocacing.com for geocaching?

 

7) If the cost for a life time membership is $5.00, how does the OGA plan on generating recurring revenue to sustain itself?

 

1... I don't see why this is relevant to you. You're not a member of OGA

 

2... That is to irrelevant.

 

3... Not at this time apart from what is listed. If you would like to draft those for OGA, we would be happy to review them.

 

4... So far we have not done so, but we do plan to before the end of this summer. As you are not a member of OGA, and voting rights are reserved for FULL Members only, that is not your concern.

 

5... If you care to provide examples, we would review your thoughts. OGA will update any information as needs arise. As for your other question regarding break downs of those items, none of it makes any sense to me what you are looking to know.

 

6... That's the rule... you have to be a member of Geocaching.com. The exception is made for land owners (Associate Memeberships) that are verified. Yes we only recognize Geocaching.com for Geocaching.

 

7... That is irrelevant, and any Membership fees may be recovered within the first three months of membership as it is stated in the document related to becoming a member.

 

I hope I have answered all of your questions accurately, and I look forward to seeing you join OGA to help enhance and improve our level of service to the Geocaching community of Ontario and beyond

 

The Blue Quasar

[+Adventure.AS]

1... I don't see why this is relevant to you. You're not a member of OGA

 

2... That is to irrelevant.

 

3... Not at this time apart from what is listed. If you would like to draft those for OGA, we would be happy to review them.

 

4... So far we have not done so, but we do plan to before the end of this summer. As you are not a member of OGA, and voting rights are reserved for FULL Members only, that is not your concern.

 

5... If you care to provide examples, we would review your thoughts. OGA will update any information as needs arise. As for your other question regarding break downs of those items, none of it makes any sense to me what you are looking to know.

 

6... That's the rule... you have to be a member of Geocaching.com. The exception is made for land owners (Associate Memeberships) that are verified. Yes we only recognize Geocaching.com for Geocaching.

 

7... That is irrelevant, and any Membership fees may be recovered within the first three months of membership as it is stated in the document related to becoming a member.

 

I hope I have answered all of your questions accurately, and I look forward to seeing you join OGA to help enhance and improve our level of service to the Geocaching community of Ontario and beyond

 

The Blue Quasar

 

IMHO, I think that answers to all of questions may be relevant to others who are considering joining OGA, and certainly of interest to members.

 

RB

[+The Blue Quasar]

I've answered those questions before to him, and I don't care to play along with his usual games of trying to make OGA look badly.

 

He was once a member of OGA, in fact an executive... although he never completed the Membership Form. We didn't have that requirement at the time. He decided to leave of his own choice and we had hoped to continue to support his efforts on his own site. But since his departure he has continued to post content in the forums regarding his displeasure regarding OGA. That is his right. As it my right to defend myself and OGA against these attacks.

 

It strikes me as odd that he never asks these questions of Groundspeak, or other Caching groups. Sure, he could claim that it's because he lives in Ontario (even though Groundspeak is also a group to which he belongs). I wonder how he would respond if asked the same in regard to his "Golden Horseshoe" site, or if he arranges insurance for people that participate in his annual 24 Hour Cache machine that he organizes every year, or his upcoming CITO event.

 

The frequent attempts to undermine and cast a shadow upon OGA have been allowed to continue since he skirts the line quite well. But I seriously doubt he has any interest in the questions he poses.

 

Any information regarding the current operation of OGA is listed on our site. I don't see a need for the items he is asking about.

 

Feel free to review other threads in the Canada Forum, and you will get a better picture of the dynamics of real aspect of this conversation.

 

I for one will no longer waste my time pandering to his need for attention through antagonization of the efforts made by others that are trying to improve things.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+Keith Watson]

Sorry to veer of topic for second.

 

One of the reasons for stopping working on the OGA website was the executive’s refusal to fully implement the privacy act. On the advice of a college I walked away.

 

The CITO and 24 hour marathon all involve geocaching.com listed caches, and therefore all the participants are bound by the geocaching.com terms of use.

 

You want to ask questions about the practices on the Golden Horseshoe Geocachers web site, bring it on. But be warned, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

 

My apologies to everyone for my questions causing such a response.

 

We now return to our regularly scheduled topic.

 

Wow, didn’t think my questions were that out of line. My apologies if they weren’t clear enough, I will try to explain them.

 

1) Most organization get liability insurance to protect the executive and the clubs funds should any litigation be brought against the organization.

 

2) Most organizations incorporate. This gives protection to the executive from things like number 1.

 

3) If the club has not incorporated, then this would not be required.

 

4) Any prospective member should be informed if the executive is elected

 

5) By law as of Jan 2004 all organizations that collect customer information are required to abide by Personal Information Protection and Electronics Act. It would seem by your reply you are not familiar with the principles that must be followed. I personally tried to get the OGA to adopt this, but was refused.

 

6) Some more explanation would nice.

 

7) I work for a company that took a major hit in the markets a few years ago because the market discovered most of the revenue was based on one time contracts and not recurring revenue. Eventually the recruitment of members will start to decline as the membership maxes. When this happens, membership revenues will dramatically fall off and the OGA may find itself unable to sustain itself financially.

[+geoSquid]

 

5) By law as of Jan 2004 all organizations that collect customer information are required to abide by Personal Information Protection and Electronics Act. It would seem by your reply you are not familiar with the principles that must be followed. I personally tried to get the OGA to adopt this, but was refused.

 

 

You are implying that OGA is not following the law? That's quite an accusation. Would you care to spell out the specific ways in which OGA is violating PIPEDA, or does it just bother you that they wouldn't set down an executive position of something like "personal information coordinator"?

 

As a security professional and OGA member, I am quite interested in your persepective on this matter. I am very familiar with PIPEDA. In fact, if I may quote from it:

 

4. (1) This Part applies to every organization in respect of personal information that

 

(a) the organization collects, uses or discloses in the course of commercial activities; or...

 

...

“commercial activity” means any particular transaction, act or conduct or any regular course of conduct that is of a commercial character, including the selling, bartering or leasing of donor, membership or other fundraising lists.

 

 

Section 4 of PIPEDA is the general terms of applicability of the law. Based on what is there (quoted above), I'm not convinced PIPEDA actually applies to OGA, and although I could be convinced that OGA is commercial in nature, it would be a hard sell. But I don't want to argue about that part of it, so let's say that the membership information qualifies under PIPEDA.

 

4.1 Principle 1 — Accountability

 

An organization is responsible for personal information under its control and shall designate an individual or individuals who are accountable for the organization’s compliance with the following principles.

 

OK. So you want to see a specific title, if I understand correctly Keith? The Membership Coordinator being responsible for the information not good enough? Please explain.

 

4.2 Principle 2 — Identifying Purposes

The purposes for which personal information is collected shall be identified by the organization at or before the time the information is collected.

 

This one seemed pretty clear to me - they needed my name and address to send me a membership card, and there is no other purpose for the collection of the information of which I am aware.

 

4.3 Principle 3 — Consent

 

The knowledge and consent of the individual are required for the collection, use, or disclosure of personal information, except where inappropriate.

 

Well, when you join you know why you're joining, so I'd say collection is covered. Unless there is an implication that OGA is disclosing or using personal information in other ways, I'd say it's covered here.

 

4.4 Principle 4 — Limiting Collection

The collection of personal information shall be limited to that which is necessary for the purposes identified by the organization. Information shall be collected by fair and lawful means.

 

...4.5 Principle 5 — Limiting Use, Disclosure, and Retention

Personal information shall not be used or disclosed for purposes other than those for which it was collected, except with the consent of the individual or as required by law. Personal information shall be retained only as long as necessary for the fulfilment of those purposes.

 

...4.6 Principle 6 — Accuracy

 

Personal information shall be as accurate, complete, and up-to-date as is necessary for the purposes for which it is to be used.

 

...4.7 Principle 7 — Safeguards

Personal information shall be protected by security safeguards appropriate to the sensitivity of the information.

 

I'd say this is covered as well, unless you believe someone is posting full membership details on a bulletin board somewhere. Note that it says "safeguards appropriate to the sensitivityof the information", not "safeguarded like a virgin on board a sailing ship". Unless I grossly misunderstand the nature of the information that has been gathered, the information that is collected is not very sensitive. Kept in someone's house, that is locked when the house is unattended would amply qualify for this.

 

4.8 Principle 8 — Openness

 

An organization shall make readily available to individuals specific information about its policies and practices relating to the management of personal information.

 

...4.9 Principle 9 — Individual Access

Upon request, an individual shall be informed of the existence, use, and disclosure of his or her personal information and shall be given access to that information. An individual shall be able to challenge the accuracy and completeness of the information and have it amended as appropriate.

 

...4.10 Principle 10 — Challenging Compliance

 

An individual shall be able to address a challenge concerning compliance with the above principles to the designated individual or individuals accountable for the organization’s compliance.

 

Of course, if you believe that information is stored on public bulletin boards, you can always ask and if you don't like it, the law allows you to complain. If the organization thinks your complaint is valid, they can do something about it, but the law also allows the organization to say that your complaint is BS. If you want to see the information they have on you, you can ask.

 

So, in any case, compliance essentially involves naming a position responsible for the plethora of deeply personal information that OGA collects, and not selling or renting off the membership list with people's addresses without permission. I've posted the compliance section in this message, read it for yourself (you have actually READ the act, yes?)

 

It's very easy for any organization or individual to go totally stupid over PIPEDA. The Act was not intended to bring down some kind of Canadian thought police onto the tiniest of organizations, it was intended to stop the abuse of personal information by (mostly) large-scale commercial operations... It was not intended to make the every organization adopt a complex privacy bureaucracy and expensive security measures. That said, please feel free to contact me with your deficiency list for OGA with regard to PIPEDA, and I'll see what I can do about getting it corrected if, in fact, the deficiencies are valid.

Edited March 21, 2006 by geoSquid

[+Keith Watson]

Ok class, let’s follow along for those of you that may have missed the first class. You can refer to http://www.privcom.gc.ca/information/guide_e.asp if you have any questions. By the way, this is a great read for anyone interest in an easy to understand document about the privacy act. It even gives you quizzes and tips to help you along.

 

Q; Is Your Organization Subject to the Act?

A: The Act extended to the collection, use or disclosure of personal information in the course of any commercial activity within a province.

 

Definition of Commercial activity: Any particular transaction, act, or conduct, or any regular course of conduct that is of a commercial character, including the selling, bartering or leasing of donor, membership or other fund-raising lists.

 

I think “membership” would include the OGA as it is selling memberships.

 

“After dealing in the past and recently with privacy legislation, I have noticed that the OGA web site seems to be lacking in some of it’s required privacy information.”

 

Under section 1.

- Give your designated privacy official senior management support and the authority to intervene on privacy issues relating to any of your organization's operations

- Communicate the name or title of this individual internally and externally (e.g. on Web sites and in publications).

 

I would be nice if this person was identified on the web site.

 

Under section 8. Be Open, you will find a few points that would be very simple to implement

 

- name or title and address of the person who is accountable for your organization's privacy policies and practices

- name or title and address of the person to whom access requests should be sent

- how an individual can gain access to his or her personal information

- how an individual can complain to your organization

 

This is a very easy thing to post on the web site. An example would be what is posted in the Golden Horseshoe Geocachers web site at http://www.ghcaching.com/terms_of_use.php. Not falling under that act as the site does not partake in any commercial activities, I still felt I should do my best to comply with the suggestions made the guide.

 

Also under section 8. Ensure front-line staff is familiar with the procedures for responding to individual inquiries.

 

I asked “Does the OGA also plan to give a break down on information collection, access, correction, and retention policies?” and the answer was “As for your other question regarding break downs of those items, none of it makes any sense to me what you are looking to know.”

 

The correct action to my question would be to respond with the current policies on dealing with these kinds of activities and requests.

 

I am not implying that the OGA is not following the law. I only stated that the response to my question seem to indicate the responder was not familiar with the principles that must be followed.

 

After reading this post, it should be clear that what I am suggesting is not that difficult our out of line. Read though the guide and should indicate my question was not out of line. In Sep 2004 I urged the OGA to read the guide and make these simple changes to the website that the guide suggested. To date it still lacks this information.

[+ibycus]

Q; Is Your Organization Subject to the Act?

A: The Act extended to the collection, use or disclosure of personal information in the course of any commercial activity within a province.

 

Definition of Commercial activity: Any particular transaction, act, or conduct, or any regular course of conduct that is of a commercial character, including the selling, bartering or leasing of donor, membership or other fund-raising lists.

 

I think “membership” would include the OGA as it is selling memberships.

 

So are you trying to imply that because they have a membership list, and that they charge for that membership that they fall under the act, based on the definition of commercial activity listed above?

 

Not how I read it. (Although I'm not a lawyer, or from Ontario, so what the heck do I know).

 

I would venture that the above extends to selling, batering or leasing of donor, membership or other fund-raising lists.

 

In other words, if they were to take the membership list that they have, and mail it off to Groundspeak in an attempt to get people to become premium members, that would be commercial in nature.

 

I think if you it again carefully, you'll probably agree with me:

 

Any particular transaction, act, or conduct, or any regular course of conduct that is of a commercial character, including the selling, bartering or leasing of donor, membership or other fund-raising lists.

 

The green is the general preamble. the blue is what you can't do, and the red is what you can't do the blue to.

 

Follow?

[+The Blue Quasar]

I'll look over the suggested changes after consulting with GeoSquid who is obvious far more aware of these issues.

 

I must confess that I reviewed the suggested link and could not find compliance with Section 8 there either.

 

Specifically...

 

Under section 8. Be Open, you will find a few points that would be very simple to implement

 

- name or title and address of the person who is accountable for your organization's privacy policies and practices

- name or title and address of the person to whom access requests should be sent

- how an individual can gain access to his or her personal information

- how an individual can complain to your organization

 

Can you point our where those items are located on your site so we can accomplish what you are requesting? I don't see any of these four items provided.

 

I would agree that fall under the terms outlined as provided, as we not only sell Memberships but also shirts and patches etc.

 

For the record, OGA did add much of the Privacy Statements after we were asked to, apparently it was not enough... hopefully we can create something additional to passify your concerns.

 

The Blue Quasar

[+ibycus]

The CITO and 24 hour marathon all involve geocaching.com listed caches, and therefore all the participants are bound by the geocaching.com terms of use.

 

Looking over the standard disclaimer, it doesn't seem to indemnify the placer of the cache,

 

In no way shall Groundspeak Inc. nor any agent, officer, employee or volunteer administrator of Groundspeak Inc., be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages arising out of, or in any way connected with the use of this website or use of the information contained within.

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

 

Sure it says that cache seekers assume all risks in seeking a cache, but it doesn't say that you can't hold the cache placer liable for those risks.... I would venture that that is intentional on the part of the lawyers, otherwise the 'cache placer' would be named in the first paragraph there. The second part is to make cache placers feel better.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your 24 hour marathon listed on an external website as well? Including details of when and where to meet? Seems as though someone could easily claim, if they were that way inclined that they hadn't seen the listing on the gc.com site, and were following off of yours, and therefore weren't subject to the disclaimer.

[+Keith Watson]

The CITO and 24 hour marathon all involve geocaching.com listed caches, and therefore all the participants are bound by the geocaching.com terms of use.

 

Looking over the standard disclaimer, it doesn't seem to indemnify the placer of the cache,

 

In no way shall Groundspeak Inc. nor any agent, officer, employee or volunteer administrator of Groundspeak Inc., be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages arising out of, or in any way connected with the use of this website or use of the information contained within.

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

 

Sure it says that cache seekers assume all risks in seeking a cache, but it doesn't say that you can't hold the cache placer liable for those risks.... I would venture that that is intentional on the part of the lawyers, otherwise the 'cache placer' would be named in the first paragraph there. The second part is to make cache placers feel better.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your 24 hour marathon listed on an external website as well? Including details of when and where to meet? Seems as though someone could easily claim, if they were that way inclined that they hadn't seen the listing on the gc.com site, and were following off of yours, and therefore weren't subject to the disclaimer.

 

If I hold a house party and someone gets hurt on the way to, while at, or on the way home from the party they can try and sue me. My original question was about the OGA as an organization protecting its executive and assets, not someone hurting themselves while out caching with me just because I said, “Hey let’s go caching together”. If that were true, I would get some rich guy to ask me to go geocaching and take a dive off the trail.

 

Could we now get back to the original topic and the questions posted to the OGA?

 

BQ sit down a read http://www.privcom.gc.ca/information/guide_e.asp and go throught the quiz. If you have any questions you can cantact me by email.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Keith Watson

[+northernpenguin]

 

If I hold a house party and someone gets hurt on the way to, while at, or on the way home from the party they can try and sew me. My original question was about the OGA as an organization protecting its executive and assets, not someone hurting themselves while out caching with me just because I said, “Hey let’s go caching together”. If that were true, I would get some rich guy to ask me to go geocaching and take a dive off the trail.

 

 

Just goes to prove that one should choose their caching buddies carefully. I'm willing to bet that someone, somewhere can (and probably will) sue a hike leader or the guy who organizes some group caching with their buddies one night someone gets hurt.

 

Falls under the 'you didn't protect me from my own stupidity' clause that lawyers seem to like.

[+ibycus]

If I hold a house party and someone gets hurt on the way to, while at, or on the way home from the party they can try and sew me. My original question was about the OGA as an organization protecting its executive and assets, not someone hurting themselves while out caching with me just because I said, “Hey let’s go caching together”. If that were true, I would get some rich guy to ask me to go geocaching and take a dive off the trail.

 

And if you could prove negligence on his part, you probably sue him over it (although I have my doubts about making it stick, which is why I don't get insurance for any events that I host)

 

Could we now get back to the original topic and the questions posted to the OGA?

 

You said earlier that you welcomed inquiries in to the Golden Horseshoe Geocachers affairs, I figured I'd make a few. They seemed to fit well along with the rest of this thread. I'm sorry if I went too far off topic.

 

So what per se do you imagine the OGA (i.e. its executives) being sued for, if not some mishap at a cache event? Or do you imagine that they are in possesion of some trade secrets that would cause financial loss to someone if they were dispersed?

 

My (albeit limited) knowledge of the law would imply that in order for someone to sue you, they have to be able to prove damages.

 

They may be subject on the other hand to fines, but that isn't the same thing (and I doubt that you'd get an insurance company to protect you against fines).

 

My (again limited) experience with these kinds of matters is that step 1 with any kind of non-compliance issue isn't "here is a big honking fine", rather its, "hey you don't comply, you'd better or else". Then if nothing is done a big honkin fine is leveled. The reason for this is that legal action is expensive, asking someone politely is cheap, and more in line with the goals of the law (i.e. the goal isn't to level a bunch of fines, its to get groups in compliance with the act.)

 

Anyways, from what I've read, I'm still not convinced that any of this applies to the OGA (even if BQ thinks it might), as I don't think they are a commercial venture (even if they charge a membership fee). Wasn't there a contact e-mail address on the website that you could e-mail for more information? Perhaps you should e-mail and ask outright if you fall under it.

[+Team Oodi]

Unfortunately this day and age you can get sued for virtually anything. If the other side has enough leverage you will probably settle even if the other party is wrong. Just because it makes financial sense to pay then go to court. That's life I guess.

 

The insurance issue is a very valid one. It affects many organizations out there. Many volunteer organizations do not have a budget but organize to have a voice as a group. By not having insurance it exposes the executive to potential liability. What to do about it is really up to the OGA executive and what they feel comfortable with.

 

I did get my question answered early on in this thread, thank you very much! It also cleared up the question what OGA does for someone in Northwestern Ontario. Here we seem to much more associate with Manitoba groups then Ontario groups. Southern organizations often do not address the concerns of the far North. Many Southern Ontarians don't have clue that there is another 1500km of Ontario past Northern Ontario, aka North Bay. Seeing that OGA works with Ontario Parks it makes sense to support OGA rather then a Manitoba organization.

 

Thank you for answering my question.

[+The Blue Quasar]

My pleasure Oodi!

 

We do have a few reps mid north if you will... Like Timmins and Sudbury areas.

 

Have a glance the Regions section on our site, the Reps are listed on the ones that have them.

 

The Blue Quasar

[haber]

Also under section 8. Ensure front-line staff is familiar with the procedures for responding to individual inquiries.

 

Although it may not hold any weight legally, I think the word "staff" should be looked at as key to the amount of bureaucracy an organization should be made to follow. Although I'm not familiar with the inner-workings of the OGA, I doubt they have any "front-line staff" when lifetime membership is free or $5.00. Could they afford to incorporate? I doubt it. Do the volunteers who all have day jobs have time to turn themselves into lawyers on weekends? No, they're out geocaching. I'm grateful for the amount of time they already spend on their incredibly useful website, and liasing with Parks staff.

 

I just want to add that I'm a "member" of an astronomy club. I attended one astronomy event and someone asked me if I wanted to sign up. I asked what it entailed and he laughed. No membership fees, no charter, no real executive. Just an e-mail list, and a bunch of star-crazy guys who occasionally send out newsletters saying, hey, let's get together at Tim Horton's and discuss astronomy, or, dark skies forecast for Saturday night, and we're meeting at X location.

 

Maybe I'm naive but not worrying about every last scrap of red tape seems warranted in this case.

[+JDandDD]

[

If I hold a house party and someone gets hurt on the way to, while at, or on the way home from the party they can try and sue me. My original question was about the OGA as an organization protecting its executive and assets, not someone hurting themselves while out caching with me just because I said, “Hey let’s go caching together”. If that were true, I would get some rich guy to ask me to go geocaching and take a dive off the trail.

 

You could indeed get sued if someone got hurt on the way home from your party if you in any way contributed to the person's risk or should have reasonably known that the person was at risk. For example, if you serve alcohol and someone gets drunk to the point a reasonable person would know that that person was at risk then you have to prevent them from driving home. The test in law is what a reasonable person would do.

 

As the organizer of a caching event you have the same responsibility. If you know or should have reasonable known that the area in which you are indicating to others to geocache in is unsafe for any reason, including time of day being unsafe (ergo your 24 hour caching with caches that may not be appropriately safe at night), then yes, you could be sued as the organizer. It would be assumed that others were counting on you to ensure their safety.

 

In terms of the OGA, I too have a strong background in PIPEDA and it would be very hard to make a case that the information they are collecting falls under the act. The information is not of a sensitive nature and requires minimal security at best.

 

To answer the OP, which is all I'll do from this point onward, I joined the OGA to show my support for geocaching in the province. The benefit is being part of an organization at the start that will take time to grow and develop its purpose but is a start at showing geocaching as an organized and responsible sport/game. Thanks to the group who started it.

 

JDandDD

[+Keith Watson]

I case anyone missed it…

 

The Blue Quasar

“I would agree that fall under the terms outlined as provided, as we not only sell Memberships but also shirts and patches etc”

 

That would classify the OGA as an organization involved in commercial activity. With that, they fall under the act. Any organization that falls under the act must comply and protect the information as well as perform other tasks as outlined in the act. Even though it is optional, the application form has space for name, address, and age. That is personally identifiable information and must be protected. Regardless of what anyone thinks of who would really want that information, or if anyone cares weather then information is stolen or given away, it doesn’t matter. You can indicate that you don’t mind if it is given away, but unless you do, the information must be protected and kept confidential. Just because you know of and organization that does not follow the act only means you know of an organization that the act does not apply to, or they are breaking the law.

 

For more information on this discussion you can follow a thread I found through Google. http://www.freelists.org/archives/oga-talk/03-2006/ and look for the thread COG membership and why it should always be free. It provides for some interesting reading.

 

Everyone knows anyone can sue you for anyting, that’s what I stated in my post earlier. Is there realy a need to keep repeating it, I don’t see the point. My original question was, does the OGA have insurance for protection.

 

As very few people seem to be staying on topic, including me, I think it is time to close this thread and stop repeating the same off topic content over and over.

[+ibycus]

In case you missed it,

 

Anyways, from what I've read, I'm still not convinced that any of this applies to the OGA (even if BQ thinks it might), as I don't think they are a commercial venture (even if they charge a membership fee).

 

Which is why I suggested if there is serious concern over their need to comply or not,

 

Wasn't there a contact e-mail address on the website that you could e-mail for more information? Perhaps you should e-mail and ask outright if you fall under it.

 

Its a lot easier to make a direct inquiry, rather than sit around guessing if the rules apply to you or not.

 

As far as "Anyone can be sued for anything" well that is what television would have you think, but I doubt it corresponds to real life. You have to be shown to be negligent, and further they have to be able to prove damages. The response to 'does OGA have insurance' for this kind of thing was 'do you?' and I'd imagine the answer is the same in both cases, as well as the why of it.

 

Now as far as a 24hour cache-a-thon goes, someone might be able to make the case that a reasonable person wouldn't be having people drive around all night in a city they don't know, in possibly questionable road conditions. So they might be able to make a case against you (after being up for 24 hours you certainly aren't driving in your peak condition), but first they would have to be able to prove some damages (like if they ran their car off the road and broke their neck).

That being said, you've put a significant number of cautionary statements in there, so I'd imagine that you are *probably* safe (although I'm not a lawyer).

[+JDandDD]

 

As far as "Anyone can be sued for anything" well that is what television would have you think, but I doubt it corresponds to real life. You have to be shown to be negligent, and further they have to be able to prove damages. The response to 'does OGA have insurance' for this kind of thing was 'do you?' and I'd imagine the answer is the same in both cases, as well as the why of it.

Actually, the test is not simply negligence as people assume. In Canada, the test is actually 'what would a reasonable person do' or conversely 'what would a person be reasonably expected to do in the situation'. In the occupation I was in we had to deal with that constantly and the legal test, according to our lawyers, was always did you do what a reasonable person would do. So you could be technically negligent but it might not be reasonable under the circumstance for you to have taken action. In the case of caching activity, it could be argued that it would be reasonable to expect that the person organizing would not direct you caches that are risky or should not be done at certain hours.

 

So you are right, that you can't be sued for anything but you can be sued for more than you think. Use the reasonable person test and you should be Ok.

 

JDandDD

Edited March 23, 2006 by JDandDD

[+JDandDD]

Its a lot easier to make a direct inquiry, rather than sit around guessing if the rules apply to you or not.

That is the prudent thing to do and I agree. I did just look at the OGA site and they do have the privacy statement there so seem covered in that area and I don't see any reason to complain about what they have done.

 

Also, just based on my dealings in my work under PIPEDA and PHIPPA among other privacy legislation, the OGA's required information might not actually be considered protected information under the act. But better safe than sorry.

 

JDandDD

 

(edited for html issue)

Edited March 23, 2006 by JDandDD

[+The Blue Quasar]

Ever since our new site featured a membership form, we have had the statements regarding Privacy and that we would only ever release GC ID and Geographical Region.

 

We do indicated that we would also provide numerical data about how many cachers may be in an area that are members.

 

We have had a Contact page since inception... I recently added the additional officers to the list and a note saying to contact us if there are concerns.

 

I don't see how we can explain further that our data is secured, nor does there seem to be a need.

 

Maybe I just don't see what you believe we are not doing.

 

As for insurance... you haven't shown why we would need that. We don't have anything different that any other caching account or group like others listed in Ontario or other areas as far as I know.

 

Two people in here that have strong credentials have suggested we are doing what we should... can you illustrate differently?

 

The Blue Quasar

[Simcoe]

The OP asked what the benefits were and I thought the BQ responded well by stating the OGA acts as an advocacy group on behalf of geocachers and is working to bring awareness to people at Ontario Parks and Park Canada as well as Conservation Authorities and towns/cities. I do understand the concern that Parks people may have ("take pictures, leave only footprints" motto), but camp sites probably already cause much more of an impact than a geocache would, not to mention the huge number of camp sites in some parks.

 

I find the website interesting and informative. It's also one of the sites that's good for people starting out.

 

Since it's creation, over two years ago, what accomplishments has the OGA had in dealing with land owners? I mean as an entity, not just a OGA members taking it on as themselves?

 

I think it's good for members to get involved and pursue information and share it with others. An organisation can only be as good as it's members.

 

Could we now get back to the original topic and the questions posted to the OGA?

 

As very few people seem to be staying on topic, including me, I think it is time to close this thread and stop repeating the same off topic content over and over.

 

With all due respect, it seems as though you were the one that brought us off topic in the first place. Though you do bring up some good points, I feel others have defended the position of the OGA very well. I suppose it will be up to individuals whether they find this a problem or not. Personally I don't, not when there's many other things to worry about in the world today - life is too short for semantics!

[+geoSquid]

Q; Is Your Organization Subject to the Act?

A: The Act extended to the collection, use or disclosure of personal information in the course of any commercial activity within a province.

 

Definition of Commercial activity: Any particular transaction, act, or conduct, or any regular course of conduct that is of a commercial character, including the selling, bartering or leasing of donor, membership or other fund-raising lists.

 

I think “membership” would include the OGA as it is selling memberships.

 

I'm sorry Keith, but you have to read the whole sentence, not just the part you like.

 

"selling, bartering or leasing of donor, membership or other fund-raising lists"

 

is not the same as

 

"selling memberships"

 

The former deals with well, selling, bartering, or leasing lists. The other deals with day-to-day operations that allow the organization to exist.

 

The former has been considered invasive to privacy for years and was, in fact, the impetus to bring in this law in the first place. The latter is just the usual way any organization works.

 

Or to put it more plainly, OGA doesn't sell, barter, or lease its membership list to people who trade in such things. So it's very much debatable whether or not that part of OGA is a commercial activity. However, there is a small amount of sales information related to OGA that would certainly qualify. As I said in my first post, I'm happy to say "PIPEDA applies". I just disagree with your very narrow interpretation of it, and since I have a great deal (decades) of experience with security and privacy issues as they apply to the protection of information in commercial and government organizations, I'd be happy to debate any aspect of it with you.

 

In Canada, the law tries not to be an a**. This law requires that people take reasonable precautions, not that they devise a complex privacy protection infrastructure to handle a few names on their membership list, and that's all. As far as I can tell, OGA does nothing that would or should cause any reasonable person to get in a PIPEDA-twist over.

 

And remember too that in Canada, there is a special judgement that can be rendered when silly or over-the-top cases are brought to court. "Frivolous and vexatious" lawsuits are not viewed well in Canada, and can result in the plaintiff being assigned costs or even damages. That's why we don't have as much asshattery in the courts here as we do in the US. Trying to sue something like OGA because they don't have a trained privacy complaint response staff would get an F&V declaration, I'd bet money on it.

 

We agree on one thing though... this thread should be locked or deleted.

Edited March 26, 2006 by geoSquid

[+The Blue Quasar]

Can we drop it now?

 

Please!

[+Keith Watson]

Would selling T Shirts and pathches be considered conduct that is of a commercial character?

 

The word including confuses me. The is a comma before it, so I can’t tell if it means that it must include, or may include.

Edited March 26, 2006 by Keith Watson

[+ibycus]

Maybe generally it might be 'commercial' but not in the context of what you quoted (at least I don't think it is). The way I read it is as follows:

 

Any particular transaction, act, or conduct, or any regular course of conduct that is of a commercial character, including

 

(the selling, bartering or leasing of)

 

(donor, membership or other fund-raising lists).

 

So you aren't allowed to (sell barter or lease) the (donor, membership or other fund-raising lists). You may be allowed to sell barter or lease other things though that don't fall under the act.

[+willowbrookfarm]

This may be slightly off the topic but....

 

I have noticed a lot of caches popping up in our area that appear to be affiliated with OGA, caches like Geocache waypoint GCV0M0. However, most seem to be placed very close to existing caches. Am I missing something? In my opinion, I think the point of a geocache was to experience neat places, more so than racking up numbers of caches. So why place another cache right in the same place?

[+Team Tigger International]

This may be slightly off the topic but....

 

I have noticed a lot of caches popping up in our area that appear to be affiliated with OGA, caches like Geocache waypoint GCV0M0. However, most seem to be placed very close to existing caches. Am I missing something? In my opinion, I think the point of a geocache was to experience neat places, more so than racking up numbers of caches. So why place another cache right in the same place?

 

The cache you mentioned is not affiliated with OGA. It is part of a series of caches placed annually to promote tourism in that area.

 

Wulf

[+Algonquin Bound]

As very few people seem to be staying on topic, including me, I think it is time to close this thread and stop repeating the same off topic content over and over.

 

Please. Do! This is about as exciting as watching paint dry, except that paint is entirely reasonable and doing what it is supposed to do. Ok... I can't hold myself back... for someone so allegedly concerned with privacy and security, why do you use your real name on line? Or, are you really someone else?

 

Okay... enough fun, boys and girls. Let's shut 'er down!

[+Team Oodi]

Thanks to all that took the time to address my question.