What's Your Take?

December 6, 2004

"Found it in diminishing daylight today. According to the high resolution satellite photos, you'll want to look for this about fifty feet due East of ground zero."

The owner doesn't "have time" to look at the photo. It's identical to the one she referred me to. She also doesn't "care to argue the point". My guess is that "the point" is whether a disagreement about coordinates constitutes a spoiler or not.

1.3k · December 6, 2004

Not to say you're wrong, but why not just change the log if the owner doesn't like it?

It looks like people are finding it now before you posted your hint.

You have the find, the owner's happy, everyone wins.

Edited December 6, 2004 by Bull Moose

December 6, 2004

Now I know both of the suspects here and have only one thing to say. Behave and play nice. Peace, Nolenator

December 6, 2004

50 feet is close enough, why quibble?

December 6, 2004

Do as you like here in the forums BL, but I shan't have spoilers in my cache logs. I offered you the option of editing your log, but you chose otherwise. If you'd like to re-log your find without referece to where the cache is hidden, please feel free to do so.

As for me, this discussion is effectively finished, period.

December 6, 2004

There is no spoiler in my log, as anyone can read in my original post.

December 6, 2004

Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that this Micro is a large distance (for a micro) from the puzzle solution. If this is the case, I have better ways to spend my time and posts like Blind Leaders are of interest without giving the hide location.

24.7k · December 6, 2004

Honor the request. I've had to change two of my DNF logs because they were spoilers. While I still have to wonder how a DNF could be a spoiler I honored the request.

December 6, 2004

Come on BL, she asked you to edit your log and that should have been enough. Peace, Nolenator

1.8k · December 6, 2004

I've been watching this cache and working on it, have read all the logs and for me I still don't get it and didn't even know BL's post was a spoiler!

Now that's bad.

So obviouly it hasn't spoiled it for everybody.

Pepper

9.4k · December 6, 2004

"Found it in diminishing daylight today. According to the high resolution satellite photos, you'll want to look for this about fifty feet due East of ground zero."

The owner doesn't "have time" to look at the photo. It's identical to the one she referred me to. She also doesn't "care to argue the point". My guess is that "the point" is whether a disagreement about coordinates constitutes a spoiler or not.

Just because your GPS said it was 50 feet off doesn't mean that it is.

However, if several people report the cache to be 50 feet off, then the owner should go back out and re-check the coords.

1.2k · December 6, 2004

"Found it in diminishing daylight today. According to the high resolution satellite photos, you'll want to look for this about fifty feet due East of ground zero."

The owner doesn't "have time" to look at the photo. It's identical to the one she referred me to. She also doesn't "care to argue the point". My guess is that "the point" is whether a disagreement about coordinates constitutes a spoiler or not.

A disagreement about coordinates is not a spoiler. You're not giving anything away that wasn't meant to be given away in the first place, you're merely pointing out what you think is a mistake.

Saying that the cache is 50 feet East of the coordinates prevents the cache owner from going back, checking and changing her coordinates, if she wanted to.

The elegant and common way to deal with this is to post your own coordinates. The cache owner may then keep her own, adopt yours, average, or go back and check, and every future cacher may make up their own mind.

I often find that posted coordinates are off. However, if I don't bother to take my own reading of the place, I don't mention it.

December 6, 2004

I am one of the finders of this cache (found it yesterday). I also showed it to be off by a lesser distance. Since the cache owner's provided hint will have you looking in the right place quickly I don't see the need for additional guidance in the logs, other than to mention that the coords are a little off. Anyone not finding it at the coords will read the hint and find it soon thereafter.

Edited December 6, 2004 by k7-wave

1.3k · December 6, 2004

The elegant and common way to deal with this is to post your own coordinates. The cache owner may then keep her own, adopt yours, average, or go back and check, and every future cacher may make up their own mind.

This doesn't work here, Bugel, because it is a puzzle cache. Posting the coords would really make her mad if she doesn't like what he already posted.

:grin:

1.1k · December 6, 2004

One upon a time... there was a cache called Pisaster Disaster or something like that. The coordinates arrived at once you finished the puzzle were a good 100+ feet off.

Fortunately it wasn't a micro in the forest, but it was a forest nonetheless.

Once the kids and I found it, I took coordinates and sent a new, improved puzzle in the same format as the old puzzle to Oregone so he didn't even have to lift much more than a finger to fix it.

BL - I don't see much of problem with your post. If there is a problem with a cache, especially a micro being 'that far off', I for one would be more than happy to see a log such as yours (you know, if I ever READ the logs before I actually went out to hunt down a cache.)

Hope the coordinates are checked and changed accordingly (well, you know, if they're incorrect.)

-=-

michelle

December 6, 2004

Erghh...I remember Pisaster Disaster! It was a good solution you posted and I see now that Oregone used it.

But I don't think BL has to go that far (though I'm sure it would be appreciated). I think saying it's x feet off is a perfectly good way to go. I don't see why it would be deleted.

Did I miss the reason why this was deleted? If I deleted a find log every time someone mentioned how many feet they thought it was off CGal wouldn't have any finds on my caches. :grin:

1.1k · December 6, 2004

Did I miss the reason why this was deleted? If I deleted a find log every time someone mentioned how many feet they thought it was off CGal wouldn't have any finds on my caches.

...hmm... I suddenly have a mad desire to schedule a caching trip to Longview!

And you're not being completely honest, Stump... CurmudgeonlyCache still has some of the best coordinates around!

-=-

michelle

1.2k · December 7, 2004

The elegant and common way to deal with this is to post your own coordinates. The cache owner may then keep her own, adopt yours, average, or go back and check, and every future cacher may make up their own mind.

This doesn't work here, Bugel, because it is a puzzle cache. Posting the coords would really make her mad if she doesn't like what he already posted.

Oh. Yeah, I guess you're right :blink:

December 7, 2004

And you're not being completely honest, Stump...

Yes, of course I was just kidding.

But still wondering what BL logged that was delete-worthy. I have a recent log where the guy obviously had the coordinates plugged in wrong and he stated that my coords were off but I didn't even consider deleting them. That was his experience, wrong as it was.

I must be missing something. :blink:

December 7, 2004

50 feet is close enough, why quibble?

For a microin the woods? 50 feet is extremely far off. Even 35 feet off should be unacceptable.

24.7k · December 7, 2004

Cool. I didn't know you could see archived logs.

December 7, 2004

I must be missing something.

Yup, you (and some of the others) are - missing something that is. But that's because it's a p-u-z-z-l-e cache, and thus I'd be compromising the integrity of the cache were I to respond directly to Mr. Fox's little tantrum above.

You may all speculate here all you like, but trust that the coordinates are as good as they're ever gonna get. And indeed others have found it quite easily - BEFORE Mr. Fox chose to be "helpful" in his log. I've also provided a trio of encrypted clues so there's really no more I can do.

Suffice that I had good reason to delete Mr. Fox's log and I shan't be bullied into compromising a cache that I worked hard to devise - expressly to provide FUN for all of you - just because one bruised DNF ego can't quietly let it rest.

December 7, 2004

Some cachers found the coords for Twiggy to be off by a bit and people posted that info in their logs. The 'wrong' area was getting a bit messed up with searching. There didn't seem to be a prob with that- guess I don't know the etiquette for when you're allowed to say when you found the coords to be different or not...So confusing when everyone has their own rules, but that's just like life I guess! :blink:

5.6k · December 7, 2004

Yup, you (and some of the others) are - missing something that is. But that's because it's a p-u-z-z-l-e cache, and thus I'd be compromising the integrity of the cache were I to respond directly to Mr. Fox's little tantrum above.

You may all speculate here all you like, but trust that the coordinates are as good as they're ever gonna get.

And how does noting that he found the cache X feet from the co-ords found in the puzzle give it away to others? I've looked at your "puzzle" and how does knowing that the cache is 50' east of co-ords I haven't been able to figure out going to tell me anything? 50' east of an unknown point is another unknown point, not at all a spoiler/hint.

He's not the only one who thought your "good as they're ever gonna get" co-ords were off:

K7-Wave

I am one of the finders of this cache (found it yesterday). I also showed it to be off by a lesser distance.

Or is part of the "puzzle" bad co-ords? That could also be implied by your statement.

December 7, 2004

I am still a little puzzled here. If you have to solve the puzzle to get the final coords in the first place how would a suggested adjustment to the puzzle answer constitute a spoiler? Suggested adjustments are given all the time and in this case it was only a distance and direction. What am I missing?

BTW that is a neat puzzle! :blink:

Edited December 7, 2004 by Wienerdog

December 7, 2004

All this controversy on this cache has me wanting to do it before GG pulls it for all the hassle. The puzzle aspect of the cache is very good and the cache page done very well. It took me awhile to figure it out and it's a very clever idea. I better hurry on this one!...... :blink:

December 7, 2004

Yes. Leave the logs as they are. It’s the puzzle that makes it a cool cache and the added clue pretty much renders the distance issue a moot point. :blink:

9.5k · December 7, 2004

I'm pretty sure I'm still missing something here. Everytime I read the forums about logs, it always goes back to the owner and how they feel about the content of the log. The final word on this subject seems to be if the owner doesn't like it and it isn't modified per their wishes, then there are actions they can take to handle the problem.

I didn't see anywhere in this thread where encryption was considered. Was encryption considered?

Bottom line... It is her cache. Her rules apply.

But then, that's the general consensus I keep seeing in other threads.

=-=-Edited for grammer... getting too used to MIRC.-=-=

Edited December 7, 2004 by TotemLake

December 7, 2004

For a microin the woods? 50 feet is extremely far off. Even 35 feet off should be unacceptable.

In the woods? Do most people expect their instrument to maintain <35 feet accuracy in the woods? I didn't realize it was a micro. If its in the woods-well, why a micro? That's seems cruel.

1.3k · December 7, 2004

I am still a little puzzled here. If you have to solve the puzzle to get the final coords in the first place how would a suggested adjustment to the puzzle answer constitute a spoiler? Suggested adjustments are given all the time and in this case it was only a distance and direction. What am I missing?

Looking at that puzzle, it seems to me there are errors that can be introduced at certain points. Maybe GG is worried that 50 feet off of BL's coords are not 50 feet off of coords solved by others.

Just shooting into the dark here....

2.8k · December 7, 2004

Just thought I'd chime in with my compliments on the puzzle. Very clever indeed. I surprised myself by solving it in just a few minutes.

Now, the drive to the cache would take a lot longer :blink:

December 7, 2004

Yes. Leave the logs as they are. It’s the puzzle that makes it a cool cache and the added clue pretty much renders the distance issue a moot point.

Preeee-cisely, Weinerdog.

And yes GeoRoo, the temptation to simply pull the cache is enticing. After all, we surely don't devise these caches to annoy, but rather - fully ONLY to provide a spot of fun for you, and the rest of the geocommunity.

Ah but - were we to pull our caches every time some DNFer gets himself into a snit, why... there'd likely be precious few active caches out there, now wouldn't there?

1.8k · December 7, 2004

Totem Lake concluded:

Bottom line... It is her cache. Her rules apply.

I completely agree. While I personally see nothing wrong with BlindLeader's post, and I think that deleting it was unnecessary, and I'd hate to have coordinates 50 feet away from where a bison tube is hidden in the woods, it's GlobalGirl's cache, so whatever she says goes, subject to Groundspeak's rules.

The satellite photos often are more accurate than a GPS, so I'd think that BlindLeader's coordinate modification would be nice to know, but if the goal is to force cachers to search and trample over a (pi)50^2 foot area (7800 sq ft), I suppose that's the cache owner's perogative.

Knowing that it's a bison in the woods, however, is enough to keep me from searching for it. I've got too many already.

(Caveat: I've not searched for this cache, I don't know the area at all, so I may be completely out-of-line. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.)

(Edit: Yup. I've been corrected. I know not of what I speak. Ignore most of the above.)

Edited December 8, 2004 by travisl

1.8k · December 7, 2004

Oh, and by the way, GlobalGirl,

(deleted at GG's request)

Hilarious!

Edited December 8, 2004 by travisl

5.6k · December 7, 2004

...just because one bruised DNF ego can't quietly let it rest.

...were we to pull our caches every time some DNFer gets himself into a snit, why...

I'm missing something here - why all the references to a "DNFer" when a FOUND log is under discussion?

And when did a DNF become an item of shame (as implied by the tone of the above quotes)?

2.7k · December 7, 2004

Totem Lake concluded:
Bottom line... It is her cache. Her rules apply.

I completely agree. While I personally see nothing wrong with BlindLeader's post, and I think that deleting it was unnecessary, and I'd hate to have coordinates 50 feet away from where a bison tube is hidden in the woods, it's GlobalGirl's cache, so whatever she says goes, subject to Groundspeak's rules.

The satellite photos often are more accurate than a GPS, so I'd think that BlindLeader's coordinate modification would be nice to know, but if the goal is to force cachers to search and trample over a (pi)50^2 foot area (7800 sq ft), I suppose that's the cache owner's perogative.

Knowing that it's a bison in the woods, however, is enough to keep me from searching for it. I've got too many already.

(Caveat: I've not searched for this cache, I don't know the area at all, so I may be completely out-of-line. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.)

Nope it's not hidden in a forest. Thank god! Some micros in Redmond are in deep woods. Places where oen would expect a box to be hidden.

December 7, 2004

it's GlobalGirl's cache, so whatever she says goes, subject to Groundspeak's rules.

That's what worries me. We don't need any more rules and it's this kind of behavior that leads to new rules. I don't want to see Groundspeak limiting when we can delete logs because people start deciding to arbitrarily delete finds.

December 8, 2004

Alright you guys I think this has spun out of control. We are all friends here right? Friends don't let friends get mad and miss out on FRITO PIES! Peace, Nolenator

Edited December 8, 2004 by nolenator

December 8, 2004

Alright you guys I think this has spun out of control. We are all friends here right? Friends don't let friends get mad and miss out on FRITO PIES! Peace, Nolenator

So nudge me on the puzzle solution so I can go see if the coordinates are questionable :cry:

Personally I think that is the underlying issue; how does one post questioable coordinates to a puzzle? I was just involved in a cache that was less than 30 feet off but the grass was trampled into mud. There is no fault but the environment sure suffered.

December 8, 2004

So nudge me on the puzzle solution so I can go see if the coordinates are questionable

LOL RH - uh, not so fast. Nice try, but you'll not pry a hint out of these hallowed halls (then again, oh dear - already some folks are actually posting hidden verbatim QUOTES from the puzzle! - thanks Travisl, for promptly deleting it)

Personally I think that is the underlying issue; how does one post questioable coordinates to a puzzle.

Simple. Privately - directly through the cache owner. And when the cache owner (who after all, arguably has far more motive to ensure his/her cache coords are as accurate as possible - certainly at least as much motive as a DNFer might have for uh, creating a controversial fiasco around it here in the forums) disagrees (and furthermore asks said DNfer to politely edit his eventual find log so as not to compromise the puzzle), that - one would hope - should suffice.

Indeed, g-help us if we cache hiders can't count on being given the benefit of the doubt (at the very least, when pitted against the word of a DNFer) - and most especially when it comes to puzzle caches. Surely if we hiders (who after all would seem to be at the crux of this fine geocaching game) can't retain at least a modicum of control over our own cache pages then... I dare say, likely we'll all - the entire geocaching community at large - miss out on a good many nifty caches - simply because few will choose to risk the hassel.

Ah but then again, in this present case, all this idle specualtion on my new puzzle cache has actually become a positive - generating far more interest in the cache than I might have ever otherwise expected or hoped! :cry:

1.4k · December 8, 2004

Group hug?

December 8, 2004

DNF? I thought it was found....

December 8, 2004

Ah but then again, in this present case, all this idle specualtion on my new puzzle cache has actually become a positive - generating far more interest in the cache than I might have ever otherwise expected or hoped!

Sooo this controversy has all been a big ruse just to drum up more interest in your cache. Boy what some people will do to give their cache a quick boost. :cry:

December 8, 2004

Sooo this controversy has all been a big ruse just to drum up more interest in your cache.

Dang! Ya caught me red-handed LRII - yep, 'tis all just a cleverly disguised marketing scheme designed to drive droves to my new puzzle cache so that I can really clean up on the bundles of rubles from entry fees...

Oh wait! Silly me, I DON'T GAIN A BLESSED THING from setting out caches for others to enjoy... :cry:

(or... in this case - not - enjoy that is, if you didn't happen to find it on the first go...)

5.6k · December 8, 2004

So nudge me on the puzzle solution so I can go see if the coordinates are questionable

LOL RH - uh, not so fast. Nice try, but you'll not pry a hint out of these hallowed halls (then again, oh dear - already some folks are actually posting hidden verbatim QUOTES from the puzzle! - thanks Travisl, for promptly deleting it)

Personally I think that is the underlying issue; how does one post questioable coordinates to a puzzle.

Simple. Privately - directly through the cache owner. And when the cache owner (who after all, arguably has far more motive to ensure his/her cache coords are as accurate as possible - certainly at least as much motive as a DNFer might have for uh, creating a controversial fiasco around it here in the forums) disagrees (and furthermore asks said DNfer to politely edit his eventual find log so as not to compromise the puzzle), that - one would hope - should suffice.

Indeed, g-help us if we cache hiders can't count on being given the benefit of the doubt (at the very least, when pitted against the word of a DNFer) - and most especially when it comes to puzzle caches. Surely if we hiders (who after all would seem to be at the crux of this fine geocaching game) can't retain at least a modicum of control over our own cache pages then... I dare say, likely we'll all - the entire geocaching community at large - miss out on a good many nifty caches - simply because few will choose to risk the hassel.

Ah but then again, in this present case, all this idle specualtion on my new puzzle cache has actually become a positive - generating far more interest in the cache than I might have ever otherwise expected or hoped!

Let's see if I have this right GG ... The high and mightycache hider is always right, and can never be questioned - ESPECIALLY by someone who has posted a DNF (the worst thing a cacher could ever do! Oh, the shame of it all.). Obviously the lowly and depised DNFer cannot do things right if co-ords they got were not at the cache - it must be their fault, the high and mighty cache hider's motives are too great to make an error.

How many threads have there been pleading with people to log DNFs to help the cache hider and others know if there is a problem or just tell a good story. Your expressed attitude (flippent distain for a "DNFer") sure makes one want to log a DNF for any of you caches. Just remember, that lowly DNFer is someone hunting YOUR cache - isn't that why you placed it? And the OP isn't a "DNFer", he's a FINDER of your cache (and a cache hider also). Get off your high horse and give him some credit.

The way I see it, any "controversial fiasco" created around here has been by you. If that is your whole attitude toward hunters of your caches, I think I'll pass. It's not worth the effort.

2.8k · December 8, 2004

So, about that hug......

December 8, 2004

Let's see if I have this right GG ... The high and mightycache hider is always right, and can never be questioned -

oh nevermind...

December 8, 2004

As a person who has been known to post DNF's, I don't consider myself to be a "DNFer." Nor did I know that was a bad thing. It keeps me humble. I second the group hug thing... Boy, I sure wish I wasn't so far away from the land of Frito pies. I'd be all over them.

1.2k · December 8, 2004

DNF? I thought it was found....

Exactly. We can all sit and joke about Frito Pies, but the cache was found, and an entirely unoffensive Find log was - and is still - deleted.

December 8, 2004

Exactly. We can all sit and joke about Frito Pies, but the cache was found, and an entirely unoffensive Find log was - and is still - deleted.

**sigh**

If you'd like to re-log your find without referece to where the cache is hidden, please feel free to do so.

Hmmm... when one finds oneself quoting oneself from days ealier, it would seem only sensible to truly cut 'n run here once and for all. Yesiree - color me off to inhale a whole bucketful of them scrumdillyiscious Frito Pies!

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