virtual caches in banned places

[Guest KYtrex]

In response to the federal regulation that prohibits leaving personal

property on National Forest Lands [36 CFR 261.10 (e) - Abandoning any

personal property], I don't see why we cannot do a virtual cache in these places. I know many of you don't like the virtual caches but it would beat nothing. The end result would be the same. 1) You get out and log a favorite spot of yours 2) other people get out to see it 3) you can still read the logs and see other peoples opinion of the area. I know that it probably wouldn't be as satisfying as a unique hiding place, but with a little ingenuity I'm sure we can come up with something pretty cool.

 

What do you think about this possibility?

 

KYtrex

[Guest Markwell]

I think that was the original intention of a virtual cache: placing a cache without actually placing a box.

 

The National Park Service have popped in here every once in a while to mention their side of the equation: listing coordinates for people to go to invites volunteer trails, could be hazardous, etc.

 

My personal feelings: Virtual Caches are just inviting people to go see a cool spot. Nothing more. The intrinsic value of the cache is in direct correlation to the cool factor of the spot. A virtual cache at my alma mater: uncool. This Virtual Cache, very cool.

 

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Markwell

My GPS Activity Page

Non omnes vagi perditi sunt

[Guest brokenwing]

quote:

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Originally posted by KYtrex:

In response to the federal regulation that prohibits leaving personal

property on National Forest Lands [36 CFR 261.10 (e) - Abandoning any

personal property]

---

 

This code does not apply to geocaches. Since there is not an explicit definition of "Abandoning" listed in 36 CFR 261, we can only use the "common use" definition of this term. Per Merriam-Webster, Abandoning means: "to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in". This obviously does not apply to geocaches since they are maintained and watched. Look at it this way, if this did apply to geocaches, it would also have to apply to your car in the Forest Service parking lot when you leave for a hike. Thank goodness it doesn't. Why? Because you eventually plan to return to your car. In other words, "Abandonment" is not defined as leaving something out of your direct control.

 

As such, there are no specific prohibitions against geocaching on USDA National Forest land. That said, Regional Foresters, and local Forest Supervisors have broad discretional powers to designate what is appropriate land use. This means that while there are no National prohibitions on FS land, locally it might be prohibited in your area.

 

Don?t confuse NF land with NPS land, by the way. It's a different agency under a different department. The National Park Service issued an advisory with the force of law that specifically prohibits geocaching. At this time, NPS land is off limits to regular geocachers.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by KYtrex:

I don't see why we cannot do a virtual cache in these places.

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As Markwell pointed out, that was the original intent of virtual caches, to put something in an area that was off limits otherwise. There are actually quite a few such virtuals on NPS land and other prohibited areas.

 

Thanks.

 

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Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

 

[This message has been edited by brokenwing (edited 20 February 2002).]

[Guest BassoonPilot]

This code does not apply to geocaches. Since there is not an explicit definition of "Abandoning" listed in 36 CFR 261, we can only use the "common use" definition of this term. Per Merriam-Webster, Abandoning means: "to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in". This obviously does not apply to geocaches since they are maintained and watched.

 

While I take no position on placing actual or virtual caches in National Parks, it occurs to me that most of the caches I have seen listed in National Parks, and that have been subsequently removed, have been placed by vacationers.

 

In some instances, they may have arranged with a local cacher to watch and maintain their cache, but that does not appear to have been the norm.

[Guest brokenwing]

quote:

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Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

While I take no position on placing actual or virtual caches in National Parks, it occurs to me that most of the caches I have seen listed in National Parks, and that have been subsequently removed, have been placed by vacationers.

 

In some instances, they may have arranged with a local cacher to watch and maintain their cache, but that does not appear to have been the norm.

---

 

Again, we are talking about USDA FS land, not NPS land. 36 CFR 261 does not apply to NPS land.

 

Your assertion that some caches are not maintained properly has merit, but if that is the case, we as responsible cachers have the option to fix that. If in fact, a cache near you is not being maintained or even watched by the owner, you could always adopt it. T-Storm and I adopted a local cache after the owner disappeared and didn't respond to email. My point is that while this is possible that a cache might be truly abandoned, it's hardly the norm. Besides, even if it does happen, something can be done about it. Worst case, if someone actually abandons their cache, and no one wants to adopt it, then the placer should be held accountable. To say, however that ALL caches are abandoned property is ludicrous.

 

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Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[Guest KYtrex]

Thank you all for the replies. I have a cache, along with others, in a national forest land area. I spoke with a ranger about geocaches there and although he did not specifically forbid them, he said they were frowned upon. Again, the reason given was the negative impact caused by repeated visitation to a particular spot. He also told me that they are working on some guidlines to handle geocaching requests, although I don't know if they will be managed differently or completely forbiden. For the sake of a good geocaching image and relationship with the rangers, I am planning on removing my physical cache and replacing it with a virtual one on an already defined trail.

 

I am fairly new to this and welcome any advice or legalities about the sport.

 

Thanks everyone,

KYtrex

[Guest brokenwing]

cial trails better than others and we should be aware of that fact. It's not like we, as cachers like social trails, they can often lead people right to the cache.

 

Something else most rangers need to be educated on is the volume of cachers. Yes, some urban caches can see a significant volume of people, but most of the caches in more remote areas see very little traffic; certainly not enough to cause a big problem with social trails to remote areas.

 

There is another issue here as well. What if you were to place a virtual cache in the middle of an area without existing trails? I can see no way that anyone, including the federal government, could prevent you from listing the cache. It's a matter of free speech. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but they can't prevent us from directing people to go to a particular spot. (I say this as long as off-trail hiking is not specifically prohibited. In that case, they might be able to stop it.)

 

The point is that the cache box on a real cache is secondary; it's just the reward we get for finding the spot. Trying to prohibit caches and forcing us to make this a virtual game in certain areas does not really prevent the very issue this particular Ranger (and many others) is concerned about.

 

Thanks.

 

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Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

 

[This message has been edited by brokenwing (edited 20 February 2002).]

[Guest KYtrex]

quote:

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Originally posted by brokenwing:

 

The point is that the cache box on a real cache is secondary; it's just the reward we get for finding the spot.

 

 

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Way to go Brokenwing! My thoughts exactly, although I must admit that I really do enjoy finding a cleverly hidden physical cache after a good hunt.

 

I feel that if we can hike, picnic, and enjoy other types of recreation in these places, we should be able to geocache there also. If a particular cache causes problems, try to contact the owner. If no response, then remove it. Don't punish the great majority of geo-caring people that are truly concerned for the outdoors also. If we didn't care for a spot we wouldn't place the cache there

 

And now for the next thread......educating rangers

 

greatly concerned,

 

KYtrex

[Guest KYtrex]

quote:

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Originally posted by brokenwing:

 

The point is that the cache box on a real cache is secondary; it's just the reward we get for finding the spot.

 

 

---

 

Way to go Brokenwing! My thoughts exactly, although I must admit that I really do enjoy finding a cleverly hidden physical cache after a good hunt.

 

I feel that if we can hike, picnic, and enjoy other types of recreation in these places, we should be able to geocache there also. If a particular cache causes problems, try to contact the owner. If no response, then remove it. Don't punish the great majority of geo-caring people that are truly concerned for the outdoors also. If we didn't care for a spot we wouldn't place the cache there

 

And now for the next thread......educating rangers

 

greatly concerned,

 

KYtrex