Why such obsessive brand loyalty?

[Guest jfitzpat]

and weaknesses, but they are all pretty good, and certainly good enough for someone to find most caches with.

 

Is it really so hard for Magellan enthusiasts to acknowledge that the eTrex was, and is, a pretty spiffy product? I mean, come on, it fits in your palm or your shirt pocket, has a nice rubber edge (often cited as a 'big' improvement in the Meridians), and will run for almost 24 hours, in ice water, on a single pair of AA batteries - for a street price of under $100.

 

Isn't it slightly impressive that Garmin has gone on to include mapping and display technology on par with the Meridians, WAAS, and even an electronic compass and barometric altimeter in the same tiny package - while still maintaining physical and thermal durability well beyond that of any unit in the Magellan line? Come on, Magellan units continue to get larger, yet producing the Platinum has proven to be no piece of cake.

 

And Garmin nuts, is it so hard to concede that being smaller, more durable, and more power efficient might come at a cost? Now, I've used both a Vista and a GPS315 (and GPS320) a lot, and just don't see a big difference in reception performance - certainly not the "notorious" difference that I recently saw in mentioned in another post, but I am perfectly willing to accept that larger receivers probably work better in some circumstances.

 

Similiarly, if you don't really need four season durability, wouldn't it be nice to load megabytes of map data with something other than a serial port, or be able to keep map sets around instead of rebuilding them each time?

 

I don't really expect anything to change. In fact, I expect that the posters whose messages I'm thinking of were consumed with rage well before reaching this point in my post. But I am curious if anyone has any insight into why this intensity of emotion exists around brands of similiarly priced, similiarly featured products?

 

-jjf

[Guest JamieZ]

JFitzpat,

 

I haven't had the luxury of using many different brands of GPS's. I've owned a Yellow eTrex and a Meridian Gold. I don't feel loyal to either brand (at this point.)

 

But I can say this. The companies make two very different product, pointed out very well by your post. The features of each unit are directed at a slightly different audience, and their available accessories and software are not compatible. That's where the division in brand loyalty comes from.

 

Each side has their own idea of what makes a good GPS, and once you invest in the GPS you think is good, you spend some more on accessories and possibly mapping software for it. It's only natural that you support your decision by encouraging other people to stick to that brand.

 

If all GPS units were basically the same and used many of the same accessories, you wouldn't see such loyalty.

 

Think back to VHS vs. Beta... fierce competition, but now no one goes around hyping up their VHS player anymore because they're all the same. Enter DVD's. Now you have some proponents taking sides on VHS vs. DVD.

 

At least it's not as bad as PC/Mac...

 

Jamie

[Guest arffer]

I don't think its that hard of an question to answer...

 

The majority of us put quite a bit of thought, research, and comparison into the process of buying a GPSR. Just look at how many times the question is raised on the Getting Started forum as to what features should be looked for, and what models have certain features.

 

Having put so much of ourselves into the purchase decsion, we would each like to think that we came to the ultimate, perfect, intellectualy correct choice. So we will go to great lengths to defend our decsion, especially if our spouses are watching over our shoulder after we just spent so much money on a 'gadget'.

 

In retrospect, you may have noticed that those of us that own more than one GPSR, especially those of us that cross the manufacturer border in owning multiple GPSRs, don't get on the soapbox quite so often. JamieZ's post above mine is a case in point; owns two GPSRs across manufacturer lines, and doesn't stress any brand loyalty.

 

I know I stressed pro Magellan much more than I do now that I came to see and admit errors I made in my original purchase decsion. Look at the on-going poll of who is hunting with what. Note how there is no clear winner; folks are successfullt finding caches with every type of GPSR there is.

 

The brand loyalty issue isn't because there really is a clear winner, its because we defend what we individually chose.

 

Just my thoughts...

 

------------------

Team CacheCows of Wisconsin

 

[This message has been edited by arffer (edited 06 January 2002).]

[Guest Hamster]

By defending our choice of GPS reciever, we are seeking to validate our decision... and perhaps to validate ourselves as a respected member of the community. Its quite common for people to push desparately the products they use. It most probably has some sociological significance.

I'm guilty myself. Well, perhaps not me since we all know that the GPS V is the best GPS ever built.

[Guest Hamster]

By defending our choice of GPS reciever, we are seeking to validate our decision... and perhaps to validate ourselves as a respected member of the community. Its quite common for people to push desparately the products they use. It most probably has some sociological significance.

I'm guilty myself. Well, perhaps not me since we all know that the GPS V is the best GPS ever built.

[Guest pater47]

As I, and CacheCalf, can attest, by far the best GPS you can have is one that was given to you! Ain't that right, Erin?

[Guest Choberiba]

jfitzpat: I've used both a Vista and a GPS315 (and GPS320) a lot, and just don't see a big difference in reception performance - certainly not the "notorious" difference that I recently saw in mentioned in another post

 

It was me, I'm the one who claims that the eTrex form factor is notorious for losing lock.

By golly I'm sticking to this claim.

 

I've purchased *six* GPSr units this year. Three were eTrex (Yellow, Vista, Venture)

Two were Maggies (Companion and 330) and the last one, to be honest I'm not sure.

 

I bought it as a X-mess gift for a buddy last (12/2000) December and hadn't ever held a GPS unit at that point. Might very well have been a Lowrence. (It was a $250 unit with a marine basemap)

 

For me, I live where I often have a clear view of the sky and *love* the fact that I can easily stick the GPS unit in my pocket when it's not needed. I have no problems reading the display while driving and can't think of anything I'd do to improve it other than an easy way to attach an external (amplified) antenna when needed.

 

It's notorious for a reason that has nothing to do with brand loyalty, a patch antenna just doesn't work as well as other designs.

[Guest NeverLost]

I own one from both sides of the creek , a Magellan 315 and a Garmin Map76 .

 

both work for their purpose.

 

it is just like the Chevy/ Ford debate....hehehe

 

probably never be and end to either of which is ''best''

[Guest laurie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by NeverLost:

I own one from both sides of the creek , a Magellan 315 and a Garmin Map76 .

 

both work for their purpose.

 

it is just like the Chevy/ Ford debate....hehehe

 

probably never be and end to either of which is ''best''

---

 

Interesting - I find the debate is less Magellan/Garmin but more of a Patch Antenna/Quad Helix Antenna.

 

(Both of your units have a Quad Helix antenna). Maybe I am losing it but I do find that the Magellan 330 (Quad Helix - no Hula dance) has a better signal lock than my old Garmin eTrex (Patch). I have less Bumble bee effect and I don't have to hold my hands out praying to the GPS gods with a compass in one hand and the GPS in the other - it really just works better...

 

Laurie

[Guest Alan2]

I think the psycho(logical) reasons for brand loyalty have been covered pretty good already so I won't add my 2 cents. But there is an practical upside to the debate. It does bring out the advantages and disadvantages of each unit. These limitations will hopefully help a prospective purchaser get a unit to match his particular needs.

 

alan2

[Guest ClayJar]

I find that some of the brand loyalty is also due to the interface differences. Magellans usually have a deeper interface (i.e. menus and submenus and on from there) and more buttons; Garmins like the eTrex have a much different interface. People coming from the Garmin side might say the Magellans are complicated, but people from the Magellan camp may see it as having consistency in the UI (everything has contextual menus, so it all boils down to going to the appropropriate place and hitting the menus).

 

Anyway, other than UI, yeah, the main deal is the antenna selection. If you look through the forums, you'll see a lot fewer debates over Garmin GPS V versus Magellan Meridian. Sure, there are discussions about the merits of one or the other (price, turn-by-turns, memory capabilities, and so on), but the discussions are more about extra features than the fundamental (reception).

[Guest HunterGatherer]

as far as the great "accuracy debate" goes... your unit is only as accurate as the guy that planted the cache you're looking for... if the cache was planted by someone toting a $5000 50kg beast with accuracy down to 0.3m than your are ok... if it's planted by Inbred Jed using his kawahonda 2000... well, your in trouble and it doesn't matter what unit you're carrying... you'll never find it.

 

for the record (and because i don't make mistakes when i research/buy things)

eTrex for life ! even if it does suck under trees

[Guest HunterGatherer]

as far as the great "accuracy debate" goes... your unit is only as accurate as the guy that planted the cache you're looking for... if the cache was planted by someone toting a $5000 50kg beast with accuracy down to 0.3m than your are ok... if it's planted by Inbred Jed using his kawahonda 2000... well, your in trouble and it doesn't matter what unit you're carrying... you'll never find it.

 

for the record (and because i don't make mistakes when i research/buy things)

eTrex for life ! even if it does suck under trees

[Guest Jake.Hazelip]

For me, brand loyalty is certainly influenced by accuracy of the unit. However, a bigger factor is the money I've invested in the unit once I've chosen. Carrying case, PC cables, car cables, powers cables, software (why is this stuff so expensive!?) and proprietary (something I universally loathe) issues all speak to my brand loyalty tendencies.

[Guest jfitzpat]

Thank you all for your responses. I must confess though, I still don't get it.

 

Several of you mentioned cost and investment, yet, a double set of spring loaded camming devices for climbing is a couple thousand bucks. You will hear discussions about things like weight vs. camming range and the pros/cons of flexible vs. rigid stems. But again, never the intensity I see here (at least not sober).

 

Similarly, try pricing mountain bikes! These sports make the cost of a GPSr look like a triffle, yet gear selections seem to stay in the realm of 'preferences', not obsessions.

 

Several people mentioned the 'patch' ant. as the source of conflict. Again, I just don't get it. I can give several coordinates in Southern California where a GPS315, 320, and MAP330 generally won't lock, but a lowly eTrex will. Yet, I don't expect that to imply one brand is terrible. I see similar discrepencies in the AM/FM radios in my cars, so it isn't an unfamiliar phenomena.

 

Also, it isn't if the units are identical in all other ways. The eTrex line is a small form factor, very durable, and with a wide operating temperature range. The smaller 'patch' ant. was presumably an engineering tradeoff to reach this objective. I don't see people in heated debates over the merits of pocket transistor radios versus monster boom boxes. Or 'sport' radios vs. regular portable radios.

 

For other items, people seem to accept that durability, size, and weigh are reasonably things to make tradeoffs for.

 

Again, thank you all for your responses.

 

-jjf

[Guest Hamster]

Jfitz:

 

As has been said here before, I think it has very little to do with the units themselves and much more to do with the "community" that has been built here. In this community we try to strengthen our own status in the group by madly justifying our choices.

 

Similarly, people will post to almost every thread to throw in their two cents.

[Guest Hamster]

Jfitz:

 

As has been said here before, I think it has very little to do with the units themselves and much more to do with the "community" that has been built here. In this community we try to strengthen our own status in the group by madly justifying our choices.

 

Similarly, people will post to almost every thread to throw in their two cents.

[Guest bunkerdave]

e a pickup, so I have some experience with "brand loyalty." (I drive a Subaru.)

 

IMO, fierce brand loyalty is nothing more than a function of ego. When someone invests their money, time, effort, etc. in a product, be it a vehicle, television, camera, or GPS, they become "invested" in that product. It may very well be a "piece of crap" and the person may in fact know this to be the case, but if anyone else says so, they may still defend the product - not because they actually think it is defensible, or that it IS "the best" but because they perceive criticism of "their choice" or decision to be an insult. Clearly the best example of this type of foolishness is the Ford vs. Chevrolet rivalry that has festered for years and which periodically erupts in barroom brawls and NASCAR (neck-car) riots. There is really no evidence that one or the other is better, but there are families that have driven only one or the other for generations. Many of these people have never even SAT in a vehicle made by the "rival" company, yet they will tell you everything that is wrong with them (whether you ask or not). When I worked in a steel mill, I saw "men" become more incensed at someone for saying their vehicle was "junk" than they would have gotten if someone called their wife an unseemly name. Fortunately, I have never seen this level of foolishness among GPS users, and doubt I ever will. This is just my long answer to a short question.

 

All that said, I use a Map330. I am comfortable with the interface, although I frequently notice things I would like to see changed. I have occasionally used friends' GPSRs, Garmin, Lowrance, and other Magellans, and they all have features I like/dislike. When I got my GPS, I had only owned one (the Delorme Tripmate) and I took it back because a) I didn't like the Palm interface, and I dodn't own a laptop and IMO, it had poor reception and c) I wasn't sure GPS technology was all that useful for non-sailors. Three days after I took the Delorme back, I heard about Geocaching, and took the money I had used to get the Delorme back to the same store and got he Map330. I got it because it was the only one this particular store carried that had mapping, which I really wanted. At the time, my brother had just gotten his Garmin III+, and if CompUSA had carried that, I would have that one. All I knew is the features I wanted, and the first GPS in my price range that had those features is the one I was going to buy. I will most likely always use Magellan, because I really doubt I will want to re-learn how to do everything, but having used several Garmin units, I can say that they are, in many respects, at least equal to Magellan's units. And superior in others, depending on the unit.

 

Anyway, there is my take. FWIW.

[Guest bunkerdave]

e a pickup, so I have some experience with "brand loyalty." (I drive a Subaru.)

 

IMO, fierce brand loyalty is nothing more than a function of ego. When someone invests their money, time, effort, etc. in a product, be it a vehicle, television, camera, or GPS, they become "invested" in that product. It may very well be a "piece of crap" and the person may in fact know this to be the case, but if anyone else says so, they may still defend the product - not because they actually think it is defensible, or that it IS "the best" but because they perceive criticism of "their choice" or decision to be an insult. Clearly the best example of this type of foolishness is the Ford vs. Chevrolet rivalry that has festered for years and which periodically erupts in barroom brawls and NASCAR (neck-car) riots. There is really no evidence that one or the other is better, but there are families that have driven only one or the other for generations. Many of these people have never even SAT in a vehicle made by the "rival" company, yet they will tell you everything that is wrong with them (whether you ask or not). When I worked in a steel mill, I saw "men" become more incensed at someone for saying their vehicle was "junk" than they would have gotten if someone called their wife an unseemly name. Fortunately, I have never seen this level of foolishness among GPS users, and doubt I ever will. This is just my long answer to a short question.

 

All that said, I use a Map330. I am comfortable with the interface, although I frequently notice things I would like to see changed. I have occasionally used friends' GPSRs, Garmin, Lowrance, and other Magellans, and they all have features I like/dislike. When I got my GPS, I had only owned one (the Delorme Tripmate) and I took it back because a) I didn't like the Palm interface, and I dodn't own a laptop and IMO, it had poor reception and c) I wasn't sure GPS technology was all that useful for non-sailors. Three days after I took the Delorme back, I heard about Geocaching, and took the money I had used to get the Delorme back to the same store and got he Map330. I got it because it was the only one this particular store carried that had mapping, which I really wanted. At the time, my brother had just gotten his Garmin III+, and if CompUSA had carried that, I would have that one. All I knew is the features I wanted, and the first GPS in my price range that had those features is the one I was going to buy. I will most likely always use Magellan, because I really doubt I will want to re-learn how to do everything, but having used several Garmin units, I can say that they are, in many respects, at least equal to Magellan's units. And superior in others, depending on the unit.

 

Anyway, there is my take. FWIW.

[Guest JAMCC47]

I have a Dodge Pickup, Chevy Car, Norwegian Wife, Swiss Knives (professional Chef Kind), drink Canadian Beer, and Brands only belong on COWS. I use an antique in my Caches, a Garmin 38, along with an "AMERICAN MADE" compass, Brunton. And I'm still able to hike in the woods with my Vasque Boots, Redhead Pack, Homemade wool hat. As we said in the scouts KISMIF.

 

------------------

JoseCanUSea

[Guest ClayJar]

Why such obsessive brand loyalty? You ain't seen nothin' here. Go to a LUG (Linux Users Group) meeting and say you think *BSD is better.

[Guest Mopar]

Thats a really silly argument, ClayJar. EVERYONE knows BeOS is better! HAHAHAHHA!

Just kidding, I meant OS/2.

[Guest Mopar]

Thats a really silly argument, ClayJar. EVERYONE knows BeOS is better! HAHAHAHHA!

Just kidding, I meant OS/2.

[Guest jfitzpat]

Hmmm. The Linux comment makes me wonder if earlier comments, like Mac vs. PC might be closer to the mark than I first thought.

 

There are a lot of similarities, first in the handheld market, fall on big time financial problems, claw back from the dead with greatly diminished market share, fanatical user base...

 

But that would seem to only apply to long time Magellan users, and I've seen other's emotions run high as well.

 

Likewise, Garmin is now a big player in the GPSr market, but their dominance is nothing like the PC/Mac or Windows/Linux thing. It wouldn't seem like they wield enough power to breed a sub culture of contrarians (for the record, I have a soft spot for Macs, I did a lot of Mac development back when they were 68K based).

 

Just a thought...

 

-jjf

[Guest arffer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pater47:

As I, and CacheCalf, can attest, by far the best GPS you can have is one that was given to you! Ain't that right, Erin?

---

 

You betcha! (posted byCacheCalf)

[Guest VentureForth]

I drink Coke, I prefer my iMac, and other than that, I don't much care about brands. I like to get what is functional with my particular needs. As for my GPS, there were three choices for me. The Nexian HandyGPS which I understand uses an obsolete protocal and won't work with anything, the Magellan GPS Companion for the same price, and the GeoDiscovery Geode which comes with two slots for memory cards that the software doesn't know how to access yet and retails for twice the price of the other two.

 

I got the Magellan and have been quite pleased with it. I don't like their bundled software very much, but it's a 12 channel receiver and works around the world. 'Nuff for me.

 

------------------

VentureForth out to the wild, wet forest...

[Guest VentureForth]

I drink Coke, I prefer my iMac, and other than that, I don't much care about brands. I like to get what is functional with my particular needs. As for my GPS, there were three choices for me. The Nexian HandyGPS which I understand uses an obsolete protocal and won't work with anything, the Magellan GPS Companion for the same price, and the GeoDiscovery Geode which comes with two slots for memory cards that the software doesn't know how to access yet and retails for twice the price of the other two.

 

I got the Magellan and have been quite pleased with it. I don't like their bundled software very much, but it's a 12 channel receiver and works around the world. 'Nuff for me.

 

------------------

VentureForth out to the wild, wet forest...

[Guest Hamster]

a high quality product, and associate that level of quality with a product. Consumers then associate that brand name with high quality.

 

The example of brilliant brand management used by Rob Young of Redhat Linux all the time is Heinz Ketchup.

He says:

If you go to the vast majority of the world's countries you will discover two things.

1. People hate Ketchup

2. People hate all brands of Ketchup equally.

 

So why then in the US do people not only consume massive amounts of Ketchup, but 80% insist on buying only Heinz? Brand Management.

 

Especially in Commodity items the Brand name is what is being sold, as it directly correlates with assumptions about quality and consistancy.

 

Again, I'm not saying buy a Magellan because ClayJar says Magellans rule, I'm simply saying we should not dismiss the idea of "brands" outright.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JAMCC47:

I have a Dodge Pickup, Chevy Car, Norwegian Wife, Swiss Knives (professional Chef Kind), drink Canadian Beer, and Brands only belong on COWS. I use an antique in my Caches, a Garmin 38, along with an "AMERICAN MADE" compass, Brunton. And I'm still able to hike in the woods with my Vasque Boots, Redhead Pack, Homemade wool hat. As we said in the scouts KISMIF.

 

---

[Guest Hamster]

One more thing I forgot to mention. A few years back I got on this "brand names are useless" kick.. and I bought a Generic Network card. It was waay cheaper, and in all ways worked just as well as the expensive 3com. Then windows 2000 comes out and then windows XP, neither of which the generic manufacturer ever created drivers for!

Now I'm wishing I'd bought the 3com.

[Guest jfitzpat]

Well, I think the annecdote is appropriate. RedHat's business model is to rebundle things that vaguely dissatisfied techno weenies developed, by committee, for free. There are a hodge podge of value adds, like 'packages' for distribution and a 'configuration' tool, but most are half baked and the really big problems, like security from worms, back end launches, etc. are not addressed.

 

But the annecdote is not quite true. Catsup, or sweetened tom. paste, has had surges in popularity at different times in US history. For example, the Great Depression. The common theme is usually covering the taste of poorer grade meat staples, using a low cost veg. preserve.

 

The big problem with traditional Catsup is that it seperates (very watery), and has a stringy texture. Heinz actually innovated in this area, using different cooking and formulation methods. The result was different enough that they marketed it under the trademarked name "Ketchup". The process was actually patented, and for decades, Heinz was the only product that was not a watery mess.

 

So, while I'd agree that it is a good example of brand management, I'd say it is misses the point to ignore that the product was introduced as a superior alternative to other products which were already in demand.

 

A better example would seem to be Nike, who has managed to take the same slave labor manufactured shoes available at K-Mart and turned them into a hundred dollar status symbol worth gang-land killing for.

 

Now, lest I get the reputation as a complete freak, I grew up in Muscatine, Iowa, which to this day has Heinz plant and which, in my youth, permeated the summer air with the smell of you-know-what. One of my first part time jobs was cleaning rail road tanker cars there. One of my first full time jobs was at an Oscar Meyer plant in Davenport Iowa, 30 miles away.

 

As a result I am neither a big fan of Katsup or Pork, but I'll spare you the details!

 

-jjf

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hamster:

One more thing I forgot to mention. A few years back I got on this "brand names are useless" kick.. and I bought a Generic Network card. It was waay cheaper, and in all ways worked just as well as the expensive 3com. Then windows 2000 comes out and then windows XP, neither of which the generic manufacturer ever created drivers for!

Now I'm wishing I'd bought the 3com.

---

Thisgoes right back to your previous post about brands, and goodwill. The bigger brands are more concerned about "image" and tend to support the product better after the sale then the "generic" manufacturer in it for the quick buck.

Looking at the user name I've used online for over 20yrs, you can see I have some brand loyalty, and it isnt to Ford OR Chevy.

Many of us stick to one brand because after the inital purchase, its easier and cheaper to stick with products that are compatible with what we already own. I have owned all Chrysler products for one reason, in 1968 I fell in love with the then new styled Dodge Charger. Every car after was because the parts, tools and knowledge I had aquaired could be put to use on the new car/truck. Samewith my computers. Once I upgraded(?) to the 8088 CGA graphics PC, there was no turning back. I think GPSr's,while not in the same investment class as a car or a PC, are the same thing. We invest in cables, cases, mounts, and software that are not useful for other brands but our own, so we tent to stick with what we have. Everyone has a certain reason for what they got initially. I have a Garmin, but thats only because at the time, Magellan did not have a product that met my needs (extreme marine environment). If the Meridian Green had been available when I made my purchase, I would have probably went with that instead.

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hamster:

One more thing I forgot to mention. A few years back I got on this "brand names are useless" kick.. and I bought a Generic Network card. It was waay cheaper, and in all ways worked just as well as the expensive 3com. Then windows 2000 comes out and then windows XP, neither of which the generic manufacturer ever created drivers for!

Now I'm wishing I'd bought the 3com.

---

Thisgoes right back to your previous post about brands, and goodwill. The bigger brands are more concerned about "image" and tend to support the product better after the sale then the "generic" manufacturer in it for the quick buck.

Looking at the user name I've used online for over 20yrs, you can see I have some brand loyalty, and it isnt to Ford OR Chevy.

Many of us stick to one brand because after the inital purchase, its easier and cheaper to stick with products that are compatible with what we already own. I have owned all Chrysler products for one reason, in 1968 I fell in love with the then new styled Dodge Charger. Every car after was because the parts, tools and knowledge I had aquaired could be put to use on the new car/truck. Samewith my computers. Once I upgraded(?) to the 8088 CGA graphics PC, there was no turning back. I think GPSr's,while not in the same investment class as a car or a PC, are the same thing. We invest in cables, cases, mounts, and software that are not useful for other brands but our own, so we tent to stick with what we have. Everyone has a certain reason for what they got initially. I have a Garmin, but thats only because at the time, Magellan did not have a product that met my needs (extreme marine environment). If the Meridian Green had been available when I made my purchase, I would have probably went with that instead.

[Guest Hamster]

JFitz:

Great Points... I did not mean to focus on the heinz example... I simply used it because it is a very famous one most people can relate to, regardless of the product's history.

 

Mopar:

I think in the business schools they refer to what you are thinking of as "Switching Cost", which is one of the famous "5" competitive forces.

 

I was just trying to point out that brands are at times usefull. And that we ALL pay attention to them regardless how thrifty we fancy ourselves.

[Guest Hamster]

JFitz:

Great Points... I did not mean to focus on the heinz example... I simply used it because it is a very famous one most people can relate to, regardless of the product's history.

 

Mopar:

I think in the business schools they refer to what you are thinking of as "Switching Cost", which is one of the famous "5" competitive forces.

 

I was just trying to point out that brands are at times usefull. And that we ALL pay attention to them regardless how thrifty we fancy ourselves.

[Guest Harrkev]

n to use SD cards for their Meridian line. This is a good move which allows the consumer to purchase memory for far cheaper than Magellan could sell if for. With Garmin, their expandable units take memory produces ONLY by garmin which means that you pay 3 to 4 times as much. My opinion of this is that Garmin is saying "We have them where we want them, so let's squeeze some more money out of them." While I admit that this may not be anywhere close to accurate, there are many removable storage options available. Compact flash has been out for a while, and Garmin could have chosen to use this to add memory to their units. Yet they used a memory where they are the ONLY source. For this reason, Magellan seems to be more responsive to what the consumer wants.

 

Another thing is feature sets. I am certainly no expert on this, but I have read that Garmin has neglected to put some features in it's lower-priced units simply for product differentiation. Even though the hardware is capable of it, some models have been intintionally hamsturng in order to boost sales of more expensive units. This opinion is based upon things that I have read elsewhere. I only have the yellow eTrex. I have heard that it is missing some things, but since this is my only experience with GPS, I do not know what it is missing.

 

While Magellan seems to be more about giving value to the customer, they are embarrasing themselves trying to get the Platinum out of the door, while Garmin has had no problems putting together a very diverse and excelent product line. Would I trust buying a Platinum as soon as it comes out? Probably not. I have also read bad things about Magellan's customer service. My one experience with Garmin customer service was by e-mail, and that was prompt and helpful.

 

Just as an example of brand image, I dislike Microsoft for the corporate attitude and image that they portray. I see them as a bunch of greedy, arrogant jerks who only care about money and are out to screw all of their customers. Their legal and licensing actions of the past year only support this view. I think that Windows XP is a fairly good product, and would not mind buying it, if only somebody else besides Microsoft made it (having WPA on it doesn't help either). However, I refuse to give money to a company who so blatantly disregards the needs of the consumer.

[Guest jfitzpat]

Several things to keep in mind about memory cards. First, if you allow third party memory to be used, you inherit other people's problems. Think about it, customer spends an hour on the phone complaining about his 'flaky' unit, turns out it is a flaky no-brand memory card.

 

Second, since cards entail a mechanical connection, they increase your field failure rate.

 

Last, once companies have found a popular form factor (ex. Palm's III series, Garmin eTrex, etc.) they are loathe to abandon them. I don't expect to see memory slots on eTrex models because Garmin is probably hesitant to keep increasing unit size, ala Magellan.

 

I'm not saying that memory cards are 'bad', (for many users and uses, I think they are great) I'm just saying that it is not always a simple case of gouging the user. I've heard many good things about Garmin customer service, and read a few bad things hear about Magellan's. It is harder to keep response time down and satisfaction up if you have to take calls and explain why smart media card X won't work and why the user has to go out and make a different purchase.

 

As for the "differentiation", the only place I've read that was a Magellan Fanzine review of the Gold. Garmin clearly favors a broad line approach (I have no idea how many eTrex models there are now), but it seems disingenuous to accuse them of tier propping. They have, after all, upped the ante in terms of price/performance in hand held units several times.

 

Successful companies seldom worry about eroding sales of their own high end products. They know that if they don't someone else will.

 

-jjf

[Guest mcb]

I always thought brand loyalty was do to the fact that the smart users purchased Garmin GPS units and the not so bright bought Magellan units. Just joking!!

 

One thing that has keep me a primarily a Garmin user was not the superiority of the units but the investment I had in software. Not that that should have made much of a difference but I have Mapsource R&R and TOPO and it was easier to just up grade from my old III+ to my GPSMAP 76 instead of getting a competing Magellan unit and then having to get Magellan software. Not to mention at the time I bought the GPSMAP 76 Magellan had not released their version of TOPO and so I did not want to give up my TOPO maps. Not that TOPO is all that great.

 

I have owned 7 GPS units Garmin 38, II, II+ III+, eTrex basic, GPSMAP 76, and a Magellan Trailblazer XL I still own the eTrex, GPSMAP 76 and Trailblazer. I know that the Magellan unit is old but if you ask me I like the features of the trailblazer a lot better then the eTrex. Too bad the trailblazer has a very old eight channel receiver. Both makers are good and I think it all boils down to the old Chevy/Ford argument, and what did your dad own.

 

Just remember that FORD stand for Fix-up Or Repair Daily.

 

Later

mcb

[Guest mcb]

I always thought brand loyalty was do to the fact that the smart users purchased Garmin GPS units and the not so bright bought Magellan units. Just joking!!

 

One thing that has keep me a primarily a Garmin user was not the superiority of the units but the investment I had in software. Not that that should have made much of a difference but I have Mapsource R&R and TOPO and it was easier to just up grade from my old III+ to my GPSMAP 76 instead of getting a competing Magellan unit and then having to get Magellan software. Not to mention at the time I bought the GPSMAP 76 Magellan had not released their version of TOPO and so I did not want to give up my TOPO maps. Not that TOPO is all that great.

 

I have owned 7 GPS units Garmin 38, II, II+ III+, eTrex basic, GPSMAP 76, and a Magellan Trailblazer XL I still own the eTrex, GPSMAP 76 and Trailblazer. I know that the Magellan unit is old but if you ask me I like the features of the trailblazer a lot better then the eTrex. Too bad the trailblazer has a very old eight channel receiver. Both makers are good and I think it all boils down to the old Chevy/Ford argument, and what did your dad own.

 

Just remember that FORD stand for Fix-up Or Repair Daily.

 

Later

mcb

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mcb:

 

Just remember that FORD stand for Fix-up Or Repair Daily.

 

Later

mcb

---

 

Not that I'm sticking up for Ford, but:

Cheap

Heavy

Equiptment

Valued

Yesterday

[Guest Alan2]

I refuse to give money to a company who so blatantly disregards the needs of the consumer.

---

 

Which is why I bought Vista and foolishly purchase a new Dell with XP. The Vista's been out while the Platinum hasn't. But in the case of XP, I should have known better buying a new computer with new software. I now have a system that whenever I connect to a remote modem via Hyperterminal, the system crashes! Hyperterminal is now private labbelled by Microsoft yet Hilgraeve who wontinues to support their direct puirchase product but not nthe XP loaded version says their product isn't checked out with XP - they take no responsibility.

 

Alan2

[Guest rpecot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HunterGatherer:

as far as the great "accuracy debate" goes... your unit is only as accurate as the guy that planted the cache you're looking for...

---

Amen brother! I pretty much stay away from the debates 'cause when looking for caches, it just doesn't matter!

 

quote:

---

for the record (and because i don't make mistakes when i research/buy things)

eTrex for life ! even if it does suck under trees

---

My sentiments exactly

[Guest rpecot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HunterGatherer:

as far as the great "accuracy debate" goes... your unit is only as accurate as the guy that planted the cache you're looking for...

---

Amen brother! I pretty much stay away from the debates 'cause when looking for caches, it just doesn't matter!

 

quote:

---

for the record (and because i don't make mistakes when i research/buy things)

eTrex for life ! even if it does suck under trees

---

My sentiments exactly

[Guest JoeyBob]

I have a Yellow eTrex, and just purchased a Meridian Gold. I used both recently to search for 2 nearby caches in a heavily wooded area. The eTrex lost the signal, but got me closer to the caches. However, I bought the Etrex when I first started Geocaching because it was the cheapest on the market. Now, I bought the MeriGold to use on trips, geocaching, fishing, etc. The basemap and primarily SD card capability were the deciding factor. I didn't have any investment in peripherals in the eTrex, so I think that a more objective purchase to fit my purposes was made. That said, if I already had the software for the Garmin, I would have bought the Vista. And don't get me started on the Mac vs PC thing....

Joey

[Guest Harrkev]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeyBob:

And don't get me started on the Mac vs PC thing....

Joey

---

 

I am hoping for the day when Garmin and Magellan (or is that Thales) support Linux.

[Guest Pote]

A couple of add-on thoughts...

 

I'm a Garmin man. I've had excellent experience with the products and the persons who work for the company and I'd like to see it survive. 'Reward the best performers and vote with my dollars' is my philosophy. And if someone asks for my opinion, I'll tell them of the success I have enjoyed with my Garmin units. I won't bash Maggies because I have no experience with them. I think that when someone asks for advice on the best unit, they get honest answers from both camps because they are both equally good.

 

Next thought is that I *HATE* big name brand items in most occasions because the popularity spoils them. They are about profit, not product. Maybe I'm a bit of a snob but I hate "pop" music because I know that it is music made to make money, not music made to make art. I also hate products that blatently advertize themselves like Tommy jeans, Nautica, Eddie Bauer, etc. etc. They spend more efforts making a name for themselves by making their name all over the product instead of making the product better. The become bland to appeal to the mushy middle and to sell to the average Joe.

 

I hope neither of these companies comes down to that.

[Guest brokenwing]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfitzpat:

(CUT...)

But I am curious if anyone has any insight into why this intensity of emotion exists around brands of similiarly priced, similiarly featured products?

 

-jjf

---

 

Well, as some have stated, we all rationalize our choices to some degree. I think this explains a tremendous amount of this phenomena, but I also think Garmin and Magellan have differentiated their product lines enough that the different brands appeal to different people. We all have different needs, so if one brand or the other better meets my needs, I?ll always think it is the superior brand.

 

I mean no disrespect, but if you need further explanation as to why some people here have what you have termed ?obsessive? brand loyalty, I suggest you look no further than yourself. Judging from your original post here, and some of your posts in some other forum topics on the boards, it's pretty obvious to me that you have some pretty serious brand bias yourself. Why do you feel the way that you do?

 

Take care.

 

------------------

Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[Guest jfitzpat]

bility really matters to me

 

When you are on class 3, 4, and 5 terrain regularly, gadgets take a beating. I would not hesitate to toss my Vista off Stoney Point, Williamson Rock, etc. and let it fall 50' or 80' to the ground. I've seen it happen, and keep plastic taped over the most vulnerable spots (view window and thumb stick). I don't think that this would be very wise for many non-eTrex model units. I've seen that happen as well.

 

#3: Cold and wet are almost always a possibility in Alpine environments. The East Face of Mount Whitney is considered a rather benign technical alpine climb (5.6 III/IV?). The last time I was there, they brought down two bodies, a fallen leader, and his inexperienced partner, who died of exposoure.

 

My Vista works reliably down to about 0 F, I've seen GPS315s and MAP330s crap out at about freezing. We were able to thaw them out, but when it is cold, dark, and wet, I figure I'm more likely to want a working GPS, and less inclined to keep opening/closing my outer shell so I can warm the thing with my body.

 

I have never viewed this as 'brand bias', just matching features to my own needs.

 

In sports where people drill holes in toothbrushes and take cardboard tubes out of toilet paper rolls to save weight, 50% lighter seems a fairly objective criteria.

 

Likewise, if you go where it is cold and rough, temperature range and durability would seem to transcend blind brand loyalty.

 

However, I think that what clearly seperates my own posts from the type I originally was referring to is that I can actually acknowledge that different brands and models have different strengths and weaknesses. Other people seem to subscribe to the 'slippery slope' theory - They can't concede that there is *anything* that their GPS isn't best at, since that would give ground to 'the enemy'.

 

Memory cards are cool. Auto shutoff is cool. Clearly, the tiny ant. in the eTrex family does not perform as well as other arrangements for many people in many situations. I'm interested in why some of the folks here can't see any shades of grey at all.

 

-jjf

[Guest BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JamieZ:

Think back to VHS vs. Beta... fierce competition, but now no one goes around hyping up their VHS player anymore because they're all the same.

---

 

Maybe I shouldn't mention that I own three Betamaxes and several VHS's. Comparing machines of the same vintage, Beta really was far superior, but over the years VHS improved dramatically . . . the mature VHS product looks as good as 1983 vintage Beta.

 

So of course, I own both an (older) Magellan and a (newer) Garmin; each has its strengths and weaknesses. My favorite features of the Magellan are the ease of marking/recalling a waypoint, and the LARGE numbers used to display the coordinates. My favorite features of my Garmin Vista are its superior ability to hold lock on satellites, and the electronic compass.

 

Guess I don't fit the model the originator of this thread had in mind.

 

[This message has been edited by BassoonPilot (edited 16 January 2002).]

[Guest BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mopar:

Looking at the user name I've used online for over 20yrs

---

 

The early 1980's! Shades of remote terminal access to a Hewlett-Packard Timesharing mainframe, Batman!

 

Mopar, what did you connect with? An Altair? A Timex-Sinclair 1000?? An Apple II??? When did the first Mac (graphical interface + mouse; no keyboard) come out? 1983??

 

This brought back such 'wonderful' memories . . . hooking up to BBS's with a 8086-based computer and 1200 bps modem (cutting edge, 1987), my membership in AOL when there were only a couple of hundred thousand users, AOL 2.0 (1991?), with support for 'super fast' 14400 modems, the invention of 'spam', etc. . .

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

Mopar, what did you connect with? An Altair? A Timex-Sinclair 1000?? An Apple II??? When did the first Mac (graphical interface + mouse; no keyboard) come out? 1983??

---

Mopar's Computers in History-101

 

Lets see: Had a friend with an IMSAI. That is STILL the coolest looking computer in the world, IMHO. Programed that in binary if i remember right, via toggle switches.

I built an ELF. It could only read out in hex on a calculator type display.

I had another friend that was a tech for a company that marketed a Z80, S100, CP/M minicomputer. He used to get all the old prototype boards, and we would sit there and hardwire the revisions ourselves. Played my 1st games of colossal Caverns and Star Trek on that one.

Then the TI 99/4A came out around 1980 I think. 16bit CPU. Dedicated color graphics processor. Had to have it. Must have spent about $4-5k after the dust settled. 3 floppy drives. Speech synth. 32k mem card. RS232 card. Thermal and dot matrix printers. EVERYTHING.

Had played around with some 110 baud accustic modems on the Z80 box, but nothing serious. Bought a 300 baud accustic for the TI and I got hooked. Soon as Hayes came out with the Smartmodem 300, got me one of them. Think it was about $4-500 or so for that.

Those were the days. SSDD 5¼ floppy disks were about $4 each. RAM was $10 per KILObyte.

When the Winchester drives came out, they were $5000 for 5 megs. ALMOST bought me one of them, hehehe. Compuserve cost $6 per hr for 300baud access. Boy, I miss those days.......NOT!

From there I went to an original IBM PC and its been a downward spiral ever since.