No geocaching in GA State Parks

[Guest ALacy]

Check the log on the Red Top Mountain State Park cache.

[Guest byoung57]

I am the owner of the Red Top Mt. Cache. I received the following email today:

 

We, at geocaching.com, received the following email from Department of

Natural Resources Ranger Nichols:

 

"To whom it may concern,

I have just recently learned of geocaching through a memorandum sent to all

Georgia State Parks from our Atlanta headquarters. It sounds like a great

concept. I have reviewed the some of the remarks made by those who have

been to Red Top Mountain, and it has been encouraging to read of the family

camaraderie experienced while searching. However, there are some specific

sitewide and general statewide concerns which will prohibit geocaching at

Red Top Mountain and other GA State Parks. Most of the concerns deal with

security, lack of control the site has of the contents of the cache, and the

acquired liability the site assumes. Therefore, as a directive from our

Atlanta office under Section 391-5-1-.06, I must request the Red Top

Mountain cache be removed as soon as possible. Please make contact with the

Ranger staff advising the when the cache has been removed. I thank you for

your understanding and compliance. Park Office 770-975-4227

 

This is really frustrating because the ranger that wrote this recognizes the benefits of geocaching.

 

I think the time is rapidly approaching when we need an organizational structure to deal with this and other issues of location. How to do it, I have no idea. Any suggestions?

[Guest Gossamyrrh]

I wonder if county-run parks are affected by this? I recently attempted a cache in Tennesee (and failed miserably!) and was told by my cohort that the area was public land, and *not* a state park...are there such areas in Georgia?

[Guest erik88L-R]

I'm really bummed out about this. I removed my Abbotts Bridge and Buford Dam caches today. I enjoyed reading the logs, and look forward to relocating these caches somewhere else. It's a real shame. I think a lot of us do geocaching for exercise, as well as for the joy of the hunt. The state parks invariably give us a walk of at least a half mile, often more. In the city or county parks the space is much more condensed, and so is the exercise. It aggravates me to think that I bought a $25 annual pass to the Ga. state parks to encourage myself to visit them for geocaching and for walks with the family. I had make a habit of picking up trash in the parks and encouraging others to do the same. It's sad that picking up trash in one of these parks is not something I think I'll be doing again anytime soon.

[Guest ALacy]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik88L-R:

I'm really bummed out about this. .....It aggravates me to think that I bought a $25 annual pass to the Ga. state parks to encourage myself to visit them for geocaching and for walks with the family. I had make a habit of picking up trash in the parks and encouraging others to do the same. It's sad that picking up trash in one of these parks is not something I think I'll be doing again anytime soon.

---

 

My wife and I have bought the annual pass every year since they started selling them. We always do a bunch of visits to walk the trails (and we picked up trash). But she, my son and I were really looking forward to that plus hiding and finding caches. We also had gotten other people to go to parks when they wouldn't without the cache hunt.

[Guest ddrevik]

They're very organized about it.

My wife and I placed a cache at Cloudland Canyon SP on Sunday, and Monday night the Ranger called to tell us we could pick it up if we wanted. [i wanted to save the message since he pronounced it "Geo-cash-AY".]

I think the state is being overly paranoid, and is missing a chance to increase visitors, remove trash and promote visibility.

My recommendation to all Georgia geocachers: Contact your local state rep and senator and brief them on the situation, asking them to sponsor a law next year that allows for geocaching in state parks.

[Guest Eoghan]

Although I'm really sad that a state has made this policy, particularly since there is now a precendent for other states, I'm glad that the Park Rangers implementing the directive are proceeding the way they are. I'd much rather get an email requesting that I remove a cache than get one that said "we pulled it, threw it away, and don't even think about putting it back" or worse yet, no email at all. This seems to indicate that though geocaching is still widely misunderstood, we aren't considered to be outcasts or whackos by them.

Or perhaps I'm just looking for the silver lining....

[Guest Gossamyrrh]

I think the silver lining is that the Park Rangers agree that this *is* fun, and I'm willing to bet they are having a blast finding the caches! Perhaps they may have ideas on areas we *could* use. I think this development is going to force us to produce more challenging and creative caches.

[Guest tjbowers]

Wow, this is bad news. Two of my caches are in State Parks. The caches appear to have been quite popular but now no one else will get to visit them.

 

I agree with other posters in that we, as an outdoor community, have a lot to offer the parks. I also think that park officials are acting reasonably under the circumstances. As they interpret the rules our activity isn't permitted, though I disagree with that interpretation. Perhaps we can work with the central State Park office and see if there's an administrative remedy that will allow us to place caches within the parks but with prior permission and approval of the local state park manager. That would be a quicker solution than legislative action. I'm open to anyone's suggestions.

 

As for the Cloudland Canyon cache, man, that's an incredible area and it's well worth a trip, even without a cache at the end of the rainbow! But, it's too bad we can't sweeten that pot of gold with a cache.

 

tjbowers

[Guest ALacy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gossamyrrh:

..think this development is going to force us to produce more challenging and creative caches.

---

Could alway do multi-stage caches where the posted 1st cache is a micro cache outside the park which only has the coordinates of a cache in a nearby park. No information about the park on the geocaching posting. Thiw could be considered civil disobedience, which sometimes has a high price, other times causes changes. Virtual is always a choice, but I like the final 10 feet of the hunt, just a log would work for me which should avoid the problem of the "park" not controling the contents, but I don't expect them to see it that way.

[Guest Gossamyrrh]

Has anyone given any thought to the smaller, county-run parks? They seem to have more traffic than the state parks and are specifically designed for outdoor recreation. I know that at least two of our local caches call them home. On the downside, there's more of a chance for someone to swipe your cache....but as I said earlier, you'd just have to be more creative!

[Guest LoCache]

Their reason is that there are hordes of plants that are endangered in the park just off the trails as well as habitat for birds we would disturb. The irritating thing about this is that if I had asked, they probably would have been more understanding, and if they had these concerns I would have explained virtual caching and offered to do that or something similar. I still fully intend to pursue this in this manner, but I am extremely irritated by these developments.

 

With that in mind, I think we can all understand their concerns, we just want to have a chance to work SOMETHING out with them to satisfy everyone.

 

Regarding the attractive possibility of moving the caches outside of the parks and then redirecting people to the actual cache in the park...I do not think this is wise. If we DO want to work something out with them, I think this would be shooting ourselves in the foot. I think right now they view us as nice people doing a cool, fun, family thing that they wish they could allow...if we decieve them, then we lose that.

 

I would like to hear what everyone thinks as to ways to work WITH them to allow Geocaching. There MUST be something we can do to keep this going in the state parks.

 

My first suggestion is that we use the Georgia Geocachers Gathering Geocache posted by TJ Bowers to get together for some fun and friendship, and take advantage of the gathering to discuss face to face some of these things. Maybe even have it AT a park willing to host it and have a State PArk official there to answer questions.

 

What do you all think?

Geo

[Guest LoCache]

Almost forgot - I would like to compose a list of pros and cons of Geocaching for the state parks....ways it is good and or benefits them (such as bringing people to the parks, cleaning up trash, ets) and ways it hurts them (security concerns etc).

 

When I feel I have a comprehensive list, I will post it here and use it in my efforts to solve this problem.

 

Instead of flooding this thread with posts about these things, just email me directly.

 

locache@geopolitan.net

 

http://www.geopolitan.net/geotrex

 

[This message has been edited by LoCache (edited 18 May 2001).]

[Guest ALacy]

quote:

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Originally posted by ALacy:

Could always do multi-stage caches where the posted 1st cache is a micro cache outside the park which only has the coordinates of a cache in a nearby park. No information about the park on the geocaching posting. This could be considered civil disobedience, which sometimes has a high price, other times causes changes.

---

When I "suggested" this, I mentioned that it could have a high price for example ruining all chances of having even a log only cache, or worse case being prosecuted. I posted it because I was sure other people would think of it, and meant it as a way to alert people of the negative side of doing this. But virtual is an option; even NPS says they have no problem with the "Degree Confluence Project" which can be considered a set of "Virtual" caches. See MORNING REPORT for March 21

[Guest LoCache]

ALACY - Hey there! I completely understood your meaning about the high price etc....I was basically seconding that. I have seen a similar suggestion in other areas and on the list, and what I was saying is that while I like the idea as a way to get around the system, I think we need to work with the system in this case. Didn't mean for you to think that I was taking what you said wrong. I agree...it would work, but could have a really high price!

 

Sorry for the confusion!

Geo

[Guest byoung57]

LoCache, I think that you are right on the money when you say we don't want to alienate the GA DNR. If you look at the post from the ranger at Red Top, I think that he/she understood and was commending what we do in regard to fostering a better understanding and appreciation of the outdoors. Also we have a strong positive in our favor in that, at least for now, I view the sport as a family sport; something that draws families together, not often found anymore.

 

It is a great idea for the Atlanta gathering go discuss this. Also if we could schedule a session with some of the park service officials and let them catch the bug. Following that we could work with them on some type of compromise could be worked out. I cannot be at the Atlanta gathering but would be more than willing to contribute what time I could to make this happen.

[Guest genegarris]

Government ruins a great thing...again.

 

I do think that it is easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. Lucky I didn't order 10 or so Ammo cans for caches!

 

This State Park intervention is disheartening. Arrrgghh

[Guest Hard Slate]

Whats wrong with National Forests? Most of the time restrictions aren't near as tight there.

[Guest kimbeattie]

Another option might be to turn all State Park caches into Virtual caches. The state can't complain about that and hunters still have a reason to be out hiking and hunting!

[Guest MountainDiver]

, what happens? Unfortunately we live in a very litigatious society and some fraction of them are likely to sue the park, the cache hider and anyone else they can think of.

 

Also, the parks are concerned about environmental impact. I know, as a hiker, that we are always told to stay on the marked trails and to not cut across switchbacks and the like to avoid causing additional erosion and to avoid damaging possible sensitive habitats or foliage.

 

Those bushes along the side of the lake well off the trail may look like a good hiding spot but they may also be the nesting area of local waterfowl. After only one or two people walk off the trail towards the spot a faint trail will become obvious in formerly untrampled undergrowth and other people may start following it to see where it goes. This leads to people poking through the bushes and trampling nests. Now, it's just another lake access point and not a nesting area.

 

I also agree with Hard Slate in that National Forests are probably a better bet. Heck, they routinely harvest timber in those things. The rules about staying on trails and the like are just suggestions there, not rules. Might be a better idea all around.

 

------------------

The MountainDiver

34 01.649 N

84 27.211 W

 

"GPS satellites are nice because they can answer two of the three most common questions in my life: "What time is it?" and "Where am I?" If they could also somehow determine whether I have any clean underwear left, the bases would be covered." --- The Brunching Shuttlecocks

[Guest Justin Thyme]

Folks, I wish I had stumbled into this forum a couple of weeks ago. I was doing some research on Geocaching in Georgia and Tennessee for a debate that was going on on a mailing list I subscribe to. A very adamant hiker was complaining that the caches were no more than litter. Some assumptions were being made that the caches were being placed without permission so I started making some phone calls.

 

Ft. Mtn State Park was brought up so I called the Ranger there to ask if permission had been obtained for the cache located there. This just happened to be the same day the message came down from Atlanta about caches located in the park. Permission was not obtained, it hadn't even been sought out.

 

The ranger and I had a very nice conversation about Geocaching and he seemed to be intrigued by the idea but he had some very reasonable reservations. He has prison labor working on the trails and he was afraid that a prisoner would stumble onto the cache and find something in it that could be used as a weapon.

 

What bothered me about this most of all, though was not the position of the State of Georgia but the fact that permission had not been sought out. Folks if you are going to place a cache, ask permission of the owner, manager or administrator of the land the cache is to be located on. These folks are very approachable and had the park service in Georgia been brought in on this from the beginning perhaps guidelines for establishing a cache could have been created with the input of the Geocachers. It will be much harder now.

[Guest Gossamyrrh*]

Is it safe to assume that every cache listed is still active?

[Guest GaCacher]

quote:

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What bothered me about this most of all, though was not the position of the State of Georgia but the fact that permission had not been sought out. Folks if you are going to place a cache, ask permission of the owner, manager or administrator of the land the cache is to be located on. These folks are very approachable and had the park service in Georgia been brought in on this from the beginning perhaps guidelines for establishing a cache could have been created with the input of the Geocachers. It will be much harder now.

---

 

Well about 3 weeks before owner of the Red Top Mt. Cache was told to remove it, I wrote Unicoi State park asking permission to place a cache on the trail from Helen to Unicoi Lodge, which is on park land. I wanted to have permission before I made a trip up there. I never got an answer but due to timing I suspect that is when the GA DNR found out about geocaching. So instead of getting permission, it may have indirectly caused all other caches to have to be removed. I don't know this is the case and even if it was, they would have found out sooner or latter anyway. But don't assume that asking permission would mean it would be given.

[Guest ericdb1]

quote:

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Originally posted by GaCacher:

Well about 3 weeks before owner of the Red Top Mt. Cache was told to remove it, I wrote Unicoi State park asking permission to place a cache on the trail from Helen to Unicoi Lodge, which is on park land. I wanted to have permission before I made a trip up there. I never got an answer but due to timing I suspect that is when the GA DNR found out about geocaching. So instead of getting permission, it may have indirectly caused all other caches to have to be removed. I don't know this is the case and even if it was, they would have found out sooner or latter anyway. But don't assume that asking permission would mean it would be given.

---

 

Maybe I am off base here but I doubt your actions had a whole lot to do with the GA DNR making the decision they did. This has been coming down the pipe for a while, since the NPS announced their position on geocaching. It's good that you announced yourself to them and asked permission. We need to do more of this where applicable to make sure that geocaching remains in a positive light here in Georgia. I am sure that once we have a chance to sit down and discuss this issue in the correct forum, we will be able to again use GA public lands. Maybe......

 

Eric

[Guest ericdb1]

quote:

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Originally posted by GaCacher:

Well about 3 weeks before owner of the Red Top Mt. Cache was told to remove it, I wrote Unicoi State park asking permission to place a cache on the trail from Helen to Unicoi Lodge, which is on park land. I wanted to have permission before I made a trip up there. I never got an answer but due to timing I suspect that is when the GA DNR found out about geocaching. So instead of getting permission, it may have indirectly caused all other caches to have to be removed. I don't know this is the case and even if it was, they would have found out sooner or latter anyway. But don't assume that asking permission would mean it would be given.

---

 

Maybe I am off base here but I doubt your actions had a whole lot to do with the GA DNR making the decision they did. This has been coming down the pipe for a while, since the NPS announced their position on geocaching. It's good that you announced yourself to them and asked permission. We need to do more of this where applicable to make sure that geocaching remains in a positive light here in Georgia. I am sure that once we have a chance to sit down and discuss this issue in the correct forum, we will be able to again use GA public lands. Maybe......

 

Eric