As COs let's make sure to verify cache coords with imagery

[+thebruce0]

...but I find the map view is only valuable until one is a few hundred feet from GZ. Once I get within maybe 200 to 300 feet, the icon representing me begins to overlap the icon representing the cache...

Really?! On your handheld, or on a mobile app? That's a pretty danged huge icon.

In Geosphere, the pin is literally pixels wide, with a tiny 'ball' at the top, and of course map zoom goes right up close. Even then, I still go by the put-the-device-down mentality when within around 10m or so. But man. 200-300' icon? That's horrible...

 

at which point I switch to the compass view. Map views, for me, are only a navigation tool...not a tool for pinpoint accuracy. Compass views offer only a slightly finer degree of accuracy and allow me to keep from having to look at the screen as much.

Yeah with that size of an icon I can understand why

But yes, if you're trying to get an accurate GPS reading, obstructive icons and a graphical view aren't really condusive to that...

 

I think the only time that map view could even be remotely helpful when placing, though its usefulness at this point still very subjective, would be to use the map to watch how much your location pin moves or wobbles as it settles on the GPS location it's receiving. Again, not any less accurate than looking at numbers as they shift and bounce while averaging, just a different view. Comparing your location on the map to aerial imagery though - nononono. Unless you're absolutely 100% confident the imagery is perfectly in line; which usually means you've already verified the GPS coordinates anyway, so the map has already become a 'sanity check'.

Edited April 17, 2015 by thebruce0

[+Mudfrog]

Used Google Maps as an experiment to see how close the cache was according to them and my GPS. Google Maps had it one street over and half a block away - my GPS was within 10 metres of the posted coordinates. GPS every time for me.

 

I imagine that circumstances can be different depending on where you live in the world. But, are you looking at the map while using the "geocaching google earth viewer"? If so, your cache, as well as everyone elses, will actually jump around on the map while you're looking at it. I'm betting that if you manually input a placemark into google earth using your cache's coordinates, that this placemark will show very close to the right spot on the map.

[+KC2WI]

The best way to get accurate coordinates is by averaging several readings taken at different times. When I use waypoint averaging built in to my Garmin, it protests if I try to take samples less than 90 minutes apart.

 

How do I use Waypoint Averaging on my GPSMAP 62

Edited April 17, 2015 by KC2WI

[+thebruce0]

I imagine that circumstances can be different depending on where you live in the world. But, are you looking at the map while using the "geocaching google earth viewer"? If so, your cache, as well as everyone elses, will actually jump around on the map while you're looking at it. I'm betting that if you manually input a placemark into google earth using your cache's coordinates, that this placemark will show very close to the right spot on the map.

 

This situation has been posted a couple of times, but I can't grasp what is actually happening... why would the static waypoints be actively jumping around the map while looking at it? What are you actually doing and actually seeing as you do it? Something doesn't sound right here... #techsupportactivate

[+Mudfrog]

I imagine that circumstances can be different depending on where you live in the world. But, are you looking at the map while using the "geocaching google earth viewer"? If so, your cache, as well as everyone elses, will actually jump around on the map while you're looking at it. I'm betting that if you manually input a placemark into google earth using your cache's coordinates, that this placemark will show very close to the right spot on the map.

 

This situation has been posted a couple of times, but I can't grasp what is actually happening... why would the static waypoints be actively jumping around the map while looking at it? What are you actually doing and actually seeing as you do it? Something doesn't sound right here... #techsupportactivate

 

Geocaching google earth viewer is an add-on that is used with google earth. If you bring up google earth and have ggev activated, then caches will show up on the map when zoomed in. I can take my hands away from the computer completely and the little cache icons will jump around. They stay somewhat close to the right spot on the map but they do not stay in the same place.

 

Placemarks that i manually enter into google earth do not do this. That placemark stays right where i put it after it's entered.

 

This is of course, using my desktop windows pc at home. Using a newer (i'm still with Vista) or another operating system, or another device, may make a difference. I have not tried this on any other device.

 

Edited to add this link to an older thread. Take a look at Markwell's 3rd post down. And below that, he also mentions the built in "fudge" factor...

 

Can i view geocaches in GE

Edited April 17, 2015 by Mudfrog

[+larryc43230]

I imagine that circumstances can be different depending on where you live in the world. But, are you looking at the map while using the "geocaching google earth viewer"? If so, your cache, as well as everyone elses, will actually jump around on the map while you're looking at it. I'm betting that if you manually input a placemark into google earth using your cache's coordinates, that this placemark will show very close to the right spot on the map.

 

This situation has been posted a couple of times, but I can't grasp what is actually happening... why would the static waypoints be actively jumping around the map while looking at it? What are you actually doing and actually seeing as you do it? Something doesn't sound right here... #techsupportactivate

When you use the "Geocaching Google Earth Viewer plug-in" with Google Earth to find out what caches are active in a given area, Groundspeak deliberately obfuscates the exact coordinates of the caches you see on the map. As you zoom and pan around, the icons for the caches will appear to jump around for this reason. (Their motivation for doing this obfuscation eludes me; it might have something to do with the fact that non-premium members could use the plug-in to locate tons of caches and avoid paying for a premium membership.)

 

I thought this discussion was about determining the coordinates when hiding a cache. What I don't understand is what the Google Earth plug-in, and its randomization of existing caches, has to do with either hiding a new cache or looking for a cache in the field. I don't know of anybody who uses that Geocaching Google Earth Viewer plug-in in the field. Is there a version of the plug-in for mobile devices like smart phones? I was under the impression it was a strictly PC-based doodad.

 

Mudfrog, could you explain how the behavior of the plug-in affects anything other than scouting for potential caches to look for, from home?

 

--Larry

[+J Grouchy]

...but I find the map view is only valuable until one is a few hundred feet from GZ. Once I get within maybe 200 to 300 feet, the icon representing me begins to overlap the icon representing the cache...

Really?! On your handheld, or on a mobile app? That's a pretty danged huge icon.

In Geosphere, the pin is literally pixels wide, with a tiny 'ball' at the top, and of course map zoom goes right up close. Even then, I still go by the put-the-device-down mentality when within around 10m or so. But man. 200-300' icon? That's horrible...

 

at which point I switch to the compass view. Map views, for me, are only a navigation tool...not a tool for pinpoint accuracy. Compass views offer only a slightly finer degree of accuracy and allow me to keep from having to look at the screen as much.

Yeah with that size of an icon I can understand why

But yes, if you're trying to get an accurate GPS reading, obstructive icons and a graphical view aren't really condusive to that...

 

I think the only time that map view could even be remotely helpful when placing, though its usefulness at this point still very subjective, would be to use the map to watch how much your location pin moves or wobbles as it settles on the GPS location it's receiving. Again, not any less accurate than looking at numbers as they shift and bounce while averaging, just a different view. Comparing your location on the map to aerial imagery though - nononono. Unless you're absolutely 100% confident the imagery is perfectly in line; which usually means you've already verified the GPS coordinates anyway, so the map has already become a 'sanity check'.

 

Zooming out to give everything context (a road or building in the map view)....yes, the icon will cover a fairly large area on the map. Sure, I can zoom in further, but then it's just a triangle and a dot floating in blank space on the screen.

 

And honestly, in my experience it's extremely rare that the map doesn't accurately represent the cache location (or at least the posted coordinates).

[+thebruce0]

Ah, ok, I get the 'jumping around' part now. Lesser accuracy means the icons will stick to rounded decimal accuracy, so depending on how GE renders and aligns the map grid, icons are placed at the closest coordinate it can find, so could cause it to jump around. Not a random jumping around (like I was imagining )

 

But yeah, this doesn't have to do with placing caches or determining coordinates, just how downloaded caches appear on the GE plugin; if I understand correctly. Interesting.

K, I'm done with that sidebar

[+thebruce0]

Zooming out to give everything context (a road or building in the map view)....yes, the icon will cover a fairly large area on the map. Sure, I can zoom in further, but then it's just a triangle and a dot floating in blank space on the screen.

 

And honestly, in my experience it's extremely rare that the map doesn't accurately represent the cache location (or at least the posted coordinates).

Yeha, that sounds more like a lower resolution handheld screen... another reason I like the higher resolution of my iphone screen . I'd probably go crazy with GPSR screens over time. Seen'em, and I do have one old, early model GPS, and my first hurdle, were I to adopt a handheld for geocaching, would be getting past that screen... But anyway.

[+Mudfrog]

I imagine that circumstances can be different depending on where you live in the world. But, are you looking at the map while using the "geocaching google earth viewer"? If so, your cache, as well as everyone elses, will actually jump around on the map while you're looking at it. I'm betting that if you manually input a placemark into google earth using your cache's coordinates, that this placemark will show very close to the right spot on the map.

 

This situation has been posted a couple of times, but I can't grasp what is actually happening... why would the static waypoints be actively jumping around the map while looking at it? What are you actually doing and actually seeing as you do it? Something doesn't sound right here... #techsupportactivate

When you use the "Geocaching Google Earth Viewer plug-in" with Google Earth to find out what caches are active in a given area, Groundspeak deliberately obfuscates the exact coordinates of the caches you see on the map. As you zoom and pan around, the icons for the caches will appear to jump around for this reason. (Their motivation for doing this obfuscation eludes me; it might have something to do with the fact that non-premium members could use the plug-in to locate tons of caches and avoid paying for a premium membership.)

 

I thought this discussion was about determining the coordinates when hiding a cache. What I don't understand is what the Google Earth plug-in, and its randomization of existing caches, has to do with either hiding a new cache or looking for a cache in the field. I don't know of anybody who uses that Geocaching Google Earth Viewer plug-in in the field. Is there a version of the plug-in for mobile devices like smart phones? I was under the impression it was a strictly PC-based doodad.

 

Mudfrog, could you explain how the behavior of the plug-in affects anything other than scouting for potential caches to look for, from home?

 

--Larry

 

I may have read the OP wrong but i thought he was asking people to take a look on google earth, or some other map, to verify that the cache they just placed, using their gpsr/phone out in the field, showed up in the right spot on the map.

 

For instance, i go out and place a cache. I take and average coorindates with my gpsr while at the cache site. I then come home and submit the cache page. Then i go to google earth or some other mapping application and input the coordinates to see if they look close to where i actually put the physical container. If the location on the map doesn't look right, then i'm pretty sure i've made a mistake somewhere.

 

I realize that the geocaching google earth viewer would not show the cache until it was actually published but figured i'd throw it into the discussion just in case some here were using it to try and verify how acurate GE really is. In my area, GE is very accurate with everything except the ggev.

 

If he or she wants to, a cache hider can double check his coordinates by manually entering a placemark on google earth. It's not mandatory but it can help to catch a possible mistake.

[+larryc43230]

I may have read the OP wrong but i thought he was asking people to take a look on google earth, or some other map, to verify that the cache they just placed, using their gpsr/phone out in the field, showed up in the right spot on the map.

 

For instance, i go out and place a cache. I take and average coorindates with my gpsr while at the cache site. I then come home and submit the cache page. Then i go to google earth or some other mapping application and input the coordinates to see if they look close to where i actually put the physical container. If the location on the map doesn't look right, then i'm pretty sure i've made a mistake somewhere.

 

I realize that the geocaching google earth viewer would not show the cache until it was actually published but figured i'd throw it into the discussion just in case some here were using it to try and verify how acurate GE really is. In my area, GE is very accurate with everything except the ggev.

 

If he or she wants to, a cache hider can double check his coordinates by manually entering a placemark on google earth. It's not mandatory but it can help to catch a possible mistake.

The Geocaching Google Earth Viewer plug-in should never be used to determine whether the coordinates for a specific cache are correct. The obfuscation Groundspeak uses isn't just a rounding-off, the coordinates sent from the server change slightly every time you pan and/or zoom the map.

 

If you download the GPX file for the cache, then load that file into Google Earth (or simply create a placemark for the coordinates), the icon won't jump around and you could probably use its placement as a sort-of confirmation that the coordinates of the cache are correct. I say sort-of because you're still left with the problem that Google Earth is more accurate in some areas than others.

 

--Larry

Edited April 17, 2015 by larryc43230

[+thebruce0]

I say sort-of because you're still left with the problem that Google Earth is more accurate in some areas than others.

Google Earth uses the same imagery as google maps, afaik. Coordinates aren't more accurate in some places than others (coordinates using the same grid system will always show in the same place relative to each other and the static GPS grid), but just as with google maps, the aerial tiles may be more accurately aligned to that grid in some places than others. Just a minor clarification There'd be no difference using google earth or google maps to compare gps coordinates, other than the user interface, really. At least by my experience.

 

Still, it should not be used to obtain GPS coordinates; not by aerials, not by estimation. If you check your GPS coordinates obtained by your device at GZ by viewing it on the map, the map shouldn't be used to adjust the coordinates since the tile alignment may be off -- but it could be used as an indicator that the coordinates might be off. If you think so, then you should go back to gz and take more readings - don't realign to the sat tiles.

 

PS: Sounds like that GE plugin should be avoided

Edited April 17, 2015 by thebruce0

[+larryc43230]

PS: Sounds like that GE plugin should be avoided

The GE plug-in was designed only for the purpose of providing a general idea of where caches might be hidden in an area you're planning on visiting. It's worthless for obtaining accurate coordinates for caches, and deliberately so. I've had the plug-in installed for years, but I almost never bother using it. I can't see how it's of any real value, at least for premium members who can get accurate information a bunch of other ways.

 

--Larry

[+Mudfrog]

I say sort-of because you're still left with the problem that Google Earth is more accurate in some areas than others.

Google Earth uses the same imagery as google maps, afaik. Coordinates aren't more accurate in some places than others (coordinates using the same grid system will always show in the same place relative to each other and the static GPS grid), but just as with google maps, the aerial tiles may be more accurately aligned to that grid in some places than others. Just a minor clarification There'd be no difference using google earth or google maps to compare gps coordinates, other than the user interface, really. At least by my experience.

 

Still, it should not be used to obtain GPS coordinates; not by aerials, not by estimation. If you check your GPS coordinates obtained by your device at GZ by viewing it on the map, the map shouldn't be used to adjust the coordinates since the tile alignment may be off -- but it could be used as an indicator that the coordinates might be off. If you think so, then you should go back to gz and take more readings - don't realign to the sat tiles.

 

PS: Sounds like that GE plugin should be avoided

 

Exactly. We should not use a mapping program or application to obtain coordinates for a cache. But we can use a mapping program or app to help verify that the coordinates we obtained at the cache site, with our gpsr or phone, shows the cache in the general area of where it is actually placed.

 

I rarely use the plugin but there are times when i click it on to get a general idea of what and how many caches are in an area i'm looking at. It does good for what it was designed for. Again, the only reason i brought it up was when the question of GE's accuracy was approached in this thread. Someone using and depending on the plugin would naturally say that GE is not very accurate.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Mudfrog