Developers & Bm"s

[+saguaroastro]

I tried to search this , but it seems the search function is not currently working, so if this has been asked before, please forgive me or point me to the correct thread.

 

Anyway, what I'm wondering is what happens when a chunk of undeveloped land is developed and the developers come across a benchmark? In my neck of the woods (Phoenix), deveolpment is going on a such a rapid pace that areas of desert that were untouched are now being bulldozed and built up. A lot of Benchmarks are listed in these areas, which have been developed in the past few years. I know that they're gone as a lot of the coords pop up on sat photos under houses and in the middle of parks & parking lots.

 

Do the developers have to get permission to remove these marks or do they just not care?

 

Curious minds want to know.

 

Rick

AKA SaguaroAstro

[+Spoo]

This is a good question. I encountered one Tri-station this past summer where developers are destroying the station and its RM's. I reported this very fact both here on GC as well as on an official report to NGS.

 

I do not expect NGS to respond to me personally, but does someone in official standing care about this?

 

EDIT NOTE: I am in reference to OC2712, PARSON

Edited January 4, 2006 by Spoo

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Some times even in developed areas benchmarks get destroyed.

 

Spoo,I have asked the same question and made the same posts and pleas.

 

Here is one whom has a data sheet that is a little diffrent than most.

I can not read the last part all that well.

 

But it was lost then found then destroyed.

 

GG0052

 

So something is being done on paper from our reports.

 

On a side note,there are 5 Engineer's (Land),that live within 3 miles of this mark, that had no clue it even existed.

I told one of them after I recovered it and it did not seem like it interested him.

 

I feel so alone sometimes...........................................

 

[CallawayMT]

The passing of these NGS monuments is not a good thing, but the NGS does not have the manpower to replace lost or soon to be lost marks. They do hope for help from the engineering and surveying firms, as well as state agencies(DOT), in preserving any and all soon to be destroyed marks. Unfortunately most companies do not get paid to preserve them, and they do in fact end up being lost forever.

 

There is no agency which can police the destruction of any of these monuments. Especially on private property, they never secured any easements for the placing of geodetic monuments and as such have no authority to govern them. The NGS and or any government agency, as well as private surveyors, must secure permission to use any of these stations which do fall on private property.

 

CallawayMT

[mloser]

As sad as it may seem there is little that the NGS can do when a benchmark is destroyed. For one thing they simply do not have the manpower to police the marks.

Second, many marks are on private property and therefore it would be difficult to stop them from being removed for development. My guess is that the fine is for defacing the marks or destroying them for pleasure, not for removing them as the property owner.

[Photobuff]

I'm fortunate to live near a whole string of benchmarks that were placed in 1942. Almost all of them are still in place, with a few being lost to road salt damaged culverts, and a few to the replacement of bridges. OTOH, I work in Victor, NY, and as far as I can tell, almost every single benchmark, even in the rural areas, has been obliterated. The usual problem is that they improved the roads and cut much needed drainage ditches on either side. Unfortunately, that was right where the benchmarks were placed. The ones that were a little further out from the centerline were probably hit by farmers plows and destroyed. Between the necessity of road improvements, accidents, and development, these marks are disappearing at a steady rate. IMO, there isn't much to be done about it beyond recovering as many as possible as soon as possible.

[+saguaroastro]

Some intersting points of view and answers. I kind of figured that the agencies involved would be way understaffed to enforce this, also I'd guess that deveolpers wiould consider the fines less than the cost of delays in costruction while they get permission to remove BM's, and if they are fined consider it part of the cost of doing business.

 

I guess the next question is this: If you look for a BM that has obviously been destroyed as a result of development, even if there is no physical evidence of same, should you logn it as destroyed? I did this yestreday (DV0069). It was clear to me that the BM would have been located in the pavement of the recently widened road leading into the new (Less than three years old) development.

 

Is this proper? To my line of thinking it is, since it should be obvious the BM is no longer there.

 

Rick

AKA SaguaroAstro

[mloser]

Think of the monuments as "guests" on the land. If it is private land the guest can outstay his/her welcome and be "evicted". Attrition was expected when the marks were set, and there is really nothing that can be done about it. The fine was mainly for vandalism of the mark--removing or damaging it maliciously.

 

Another way such marks disappear is simple inattention. When a backhoe operator starts clearing an area he may not expect to find a benchmark monument, so when he hits something concrete, he just digs it out and puts it in the truck. Nobody will even see what it was.

[+Spoo]

saguaroastro :

 

Speaking for myself.......If you logged DV0069 as destroyed on GC.com......well ok.

 

But I do not think you should file it with NGS as destoyed. We non-professional surveyors do not always interpret the directions well. We can often be wrong because the directions are vague.

 

When I find a mark that I am sure is not there, I still do not list it as destroyed.......I give the benefit of the doubt to the professionals.

 

When I list my DNF, I will often say why I do not think it may exist, but I have found marks that others, including NGS, have listed as Destroyed.

 

Do not be too quick to think that you or others cannot make a mistake.

 

Spoo

[mloser]

saguaroastro,

Don't go by the coords on a mark like this. If the datasheet says the location is "scaled" it means the coordinates were created from the map and can be as much as 600 feet off.

 

The only way to find scaled marks is to use the description. You can use your GPSr to get close, but after that it becomes a treasure hunt. The description says 35 feet from the centerline of the road. If the road was widened evenly from the center, it could still be there. A typical lane is 12-13 feet, plus shoulder of 3, so you have added 15 feet to the original 12 or so of the road, giving 27 feet of lanes east of the center.

 

I see from the aerial photos that the area is totally developed however, so there is a good chance the mark is gone, either from road construction or general construction of the housing development to the north of the road that used to be a trail.

 

As Spoo said, listing a mark as destroyed on GC is no big deal. This is a hobbyist site and you can make the judgements you see fit to make. You are not making decisions that affect anyone.

 

For NGS more proof is needed to get that mark listed as destroyed--basically you need the disk itself. Otherwise there is no proof that the mark isn't just buried or poorly searched for. NGS criteria allow only a Not Found for a mark that cannot be found, pretty much no matter what the evidence to the contrary.

 

Without being at your site, it is easy for me to second guess your search. That isn't what my intent though. You know your area better than anyone here.

 

There are quite a few times I got out of the car and it was painfully obvious that I was not going to find a mark--the bridge is totally new, there is massive construction in the area, etc. But there are those times where something bugged me about the situation and I searched more carefully, or even returned 2 and 3 times. Sometimes this just made me certain it was really gone: KW1220 for instance. Three trips and I finally packed it in.

KW1231, which I returned to 3 times, and finally found destroyed, and KW1246 which I couldn't find 3 times but now that the site has been plowed I am sure is gone.

 

On the flip side is KW0933 which took me 3 tries to FIND.

 

So trust your instincts, but if the mark is SCALED, never trust your GPSr!

[+seventhings]

saguaroastro -

 

I prefer to log paved-over, uprooted, or otherwise "can't possibly be there anymore" benchmarks as "not found". I know of at least one disk that survives under a few inches of asphalt.

 

Intersection stations (church steeples, water tanks, etc.) are another story. It's easy to determine when they are not there anymore, and they can't hide if they're still there. I'll log them as "Destroyed" in a heartbeat.

 

But it's OK to log disks as "Destroyed" here, but stick to "not found" for NGS if you are inclined to eport recoveries to that agency as well. Most experienced benchmark hunters seldom log disks as "Destroyed", even on GC.com, but it is a hobby site so you do have a lot of latitude.

 

Will

[+saguaroastro]

To all who replied, thanks for the input. I know not to trust the coords on scaled BM's. In fact most of the benchmarks I've found just as has been said, use the gps to get in the ballpark and use the descricption from there. On this particular BM. (DV0069), I gave a pretty good search based on the description. Looked at it from all possibilities of where the centerline of the road was or could have been before widening. Also working towards my conclusion was the that description shows that the mark was not recovered twice by the NGS. Last recovery was in 1981. They did not recover in Mar. 2003 & again about a year ago. So in essence I was just confirming what everyone seems to have figured out. I hadn't planned on reporting to the NGS simply put, I didn't know you could do that [].

 

Now the question I have is if a mark gets buried, how does anyone know it's there? Kind of a tree falling in the woods with nobody around issue, it would seem. It can't serve it's intended purpose, so why show it as still there?

 

I suppose this is part of what intrigues me about hunting BM's.

 

Thanks for all the info, It's turrned into an intereting discusion.

 

Rick

SaguaroAstro

[+seventhings]

Rick SaguaroAstro -

 

You asked: "Now the question I have is if a mark gets buried, how does anyone know it's there? Kind of a tree falling in the woods with nobody around issue, it would seem. It can't serve it's intended purpose, so why show it as still there?"

 

A buried mark may still serve its intended purpose perfectly well (assuming that when it got buried it's position was not disturbed). Of course, a buried and paved-over mark may be tough to use. Or a mark buried several feet below the surface may be near impossible to get to (for a hobbyist). But just buried a few inches deep by some sod and soil is no big problem. That's why surveyors and experienced benchmark hunters carry metal detectors, probes and shovels.

 

I think most of the professional surveyors would say that buried marks may be harder to find but are often just as usable as marks at or above the surface. The key is not "buried" as much as it is "disturbed during the activities that led to the burying".

 

And that's why I tend to log such marks as "not found" rather than "destroyed". While I will seldom go to the effort of trying to find a mark that is described as or may be a foot or so under some new landscaping, a professional surveying crew may dig a good-sized hole (maybe through some asphalt) and have a perfectly functional benchmark to work with.

 

Will

Edited January 7, 2006 by seventhings

[Photobuff]

IMO, destroyed means exactly that. It doesn't matter how inaccessible the mark is to you and I, if it exists at the location where it was placed, it isn't destroyed. Even if it's under six feet of concrete, it still exists. Let's say that someday the technology exists to accurately image and locate the mark within the concrete; it would still be usable.

 

I can see the logic in not logging a mark as destroyed with the NGS unless there's irrefutable evidence, such as a photo of the remains. Proving a negative can be nearly impossible. You just don't know that the mark isn't where you think it should be, you don't know that it isn't buried just a bit deeper than your metal detector can detect, you don't know that there wasn't a typo in the description, and you don't know that the USPS isn't going to find it a month after you've looked!

 

IMO, these things are what make this hobby so addictive and so much fun- clues but no certainty.