Z15
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Posts posted by Z15
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A quote from another post by DaveD
QuoteThe U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), an agency in the Dept. of the Interior has the responsibility for producing our national topographic maps. They completed the monumental task of complete national mapping of the 1:24,000 scale map series (about 55,000 maps) in the early 1990's. USGS would often set survey monuments to help "control" the map. Maps are produced from aeronautical photos mosaiced together. In order to provide accurate location, orientation, scale and elevation to a flat map of a curved surface, it is required to have numerous points that can be identified on the photographs for which the coordinates/elevations are well known. The marks set by USGS were a vital part of this operation. In the days when mapping surveys were conducted primarily by line-of-site methods, these marks helped save money by helping to ensure a network that cartographers could rely on for mapping update procedures. With the rapid developments in surveying and mapping technology, especially GPS, USGS sees little need to setting new marks or maintaining the old networks. Unfortunately the data for tens of thousands of these marks set by USGS were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. Due to major reductions in staff and the changing nature of mapping requirements, it is highly unlikely that USGS will ever automate these data.
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I noticed this before and I think I recall that someone mentioned (years ago) that they were mining geocach recovery notes for that data. Someone derived a script to collect that data, if I recall correctly.
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fyi
QuoteThe U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), an agency in the Dept. of the Interior has the responsibility for producing our national topographic maps. They completed the monumental task of complete national mapping of the 1:24,000 scale map series (about 55,000 maps) in the early 1990's. USGS would often set survey monuments to help "control" the map. Maps are produced from aeronautical photos mosaiced together. In order to provide accurate location, orientation, scale and elevation to a flat map of a curved surface, it is required to have numerous points that can be identified on the photographs for which the coordinates/elevations are well known. The marks set by USGS were a vital part of this operation. In the days when mapping surveys were conducted primarily by line-of-site methods, these marks helped save money by helping to ensure a network that cartographers could rely on for mapping update procedures. With the rapid developments in surveying and mapping technology, especially GPS, USGS sees little need to setting new marks or maintaining the old networks. Unfortunately the data for tens of thousands of these marks set by USGS were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reberence System. Due to major reductions in staff and the changing nature of mapping requirements, it is highly unlikely that USGS will ever automate these data.
PS - The abbreviation "U. E." stands for Useful Elevation.
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On 7/6/2021 at 8:36 AM, frex3wv said:
Greetings all:
I haven't been on in a long while - but hope everyone is well.
Question: Does anyone know/have the name and number/email address for the person we contact at the NGS to report finds or ask questions?
The reason I am asking is I know of an old school getting ready to be torn down (with a benchmark disk from 1933 in the concrete stairs leading into the main entrance of the school) and am trying to see if the Gov't will agree to let the town keep it and place it in a town museum.
Any help would be appreciated! Best wishes.
David
I am sure they will..You just need to contact the NGS advisor for your state. https://geodesy.noaa.gov/ADVISORS/
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from a post years ago
QuoteThe U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), an agency in the Dept. of the Interior has the responsibility for producing our national topographic maps. They completed the monumental task of complete national mapping of the 1:24,000 scale map series (about 55,000 maps) in the early 1990's. USGS would often set survey monuments to help "control" the map. Maps are produced from aeronautical photos mosaiced together. In order to provide accurate location, orientation, scale and elevation to a flat map of a curved surface, it is required to have numerous points that can be identified on the photographs for which the coordinates/elevations are well known. The marks set by USGS were a vital part of this operation. In the days when mapping surveys were conducted primarily by line-of-site methods, these marks helped save money by helping to ensure a network that cartographers could rely on for mapping update procedures. With the rapid developments in surveying and mapping technology, especially GPS, USGS sees little need to setting new marks or maintaining the old networks. Unfortunately the data for tens of thousands of these marks set by USGS were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. Due to major reductions in staff and the changing nature of mapping requirements, it is highly unlikely that USGS will ever automate these data.
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Note
USGS is an agency in the Dept of the Interior
NGS is an agnecy in the Dept of Commerce, Nat'l Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
They have/had different mandate/missions. USGS does NOT publish a lot of their work unless requested. I knew of the USGS guys at a local water level branch as they had a field office in our DOT bldg. They monitored water levels and did stream surveys on those tributary to Lake Michigan and Superior. Their info was office specific and a lot of the data collection has been automated now.
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It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish on whats involved in a level run check.
See this pdf doc, page 12 Network Geometry for Replacing One or Two 1st Order Bench Marks. Can also be used to check a mark ►https://transportation.ky.gov/Highway-Design/Documents/NGS Benchmark Reset Procedures 2007.pdf
Using just one mark assumes the mark used is accurate but no way to prove it.
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I would not report it as poor. The rod may be ok, the header may have sunk down.
Her what NGS wrote one make here
QuoteHISTORY - Date Condition Report By RL1503 HISTORY - 1985 MONUMENTED NGS RL1503 HISTORY - 19890805 GOOD NGS RL1503 HISTORY - 19940628 SEE DESCRIPTION NGS RL1503 HISTORY - 20040808 GOOD USPSQD RL1503 HISTORY - 20090616 GOOD MIDT RL1503 HISTORY - 20120801 GOOD WOOLPT
NOTE--EITHER THE ROD IS RISING OR THE CONCRETE HEADER IS SINKING. THE 'ROD IS NOW PUSHING THE LOGO CAP LID INTO THE OPEN POSITION. USE WITH 'CAUTION. -
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OTOH using metal detectors is illegal in state forests
Federal property as well. Reason? People are searching for and taking/stealing Artifacts and souvenirs, and there are laws prohibiting taking anything whatsoever. You so much as dig on federal property, especially any historic area, you could be arrested. The Park Service was up in arms when someone removed foundations ruins in the local Nat"l Historic Park here, its federal crime even though is was just deteriorated stone and rubble, it was a valuable historic artifacts no matter what perceived value.
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A dolphin is a man-made marine structure that extends above the water level and is not connected to shore.
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Its the center point for reference..........................
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I looked for and or found most BM's within a 100 miles of my location that were able to reach. Some remote ones I did not bother to look for if the ATV could not reach the area or it was on private and or occupied land. I only found one cache and it was by accident as it happened to be at a remote boat ramp in plain sight (hanging in a tree) near a NOS mark. Other than that non interested is cache's. Bench Marks relate to the history of the area and that's what peeks my interest. Lots of work around here during the 1930's depression era. Been in the surveying field from 1972-2002 as a Survey Tech for state DOT.
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That is Bench Mark #1. An elevation point for some survey job.
https://www.berntsen.com/Surveying/Specialty-Markers/BenchTies/ctl/ViewProduct/mid/598/itemID/487
BenchTie - The Vertical Surface Control Point
- Recessed dimple on top for prism pole
- High visibility tag for marking data
- Resections are made instantly and accurately
- Light weight
- Pre drill to set in concrete
- Use in trees or poles as permanent or temporary benchmarks
The revolutionary vertical surface control point, BenchTie can be used on trees and poles. BenchTie comes with a high visibility tag for marking data. It is molded around a five-inch (127mm) hardened zinc-coated spike. Other features include a recessed dimple on top and a high-density lightweight casing.
Available in high visibility yellow.
PS - Its not unusual for some small projects where no vertical control is nearby to use an assumed elevation for cost savings. Also that they are often placed in areas that won't be disturbed so its survives any project work. They are planing or investigating the feasibility of building something nearby I would presume and probably mapped the area.
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I have recovered a few marks into Wisconsin when I was working at Michigan DOT. Once was assigned to occupy this BM along a railroad West if Pembine, Wis. I had to get permission to cross private property to reach the mark. Another time I was on a Station along US 141 Wausaukee Wis when a local property owner walked by and looked at my state truck and come over and asked me if I was aware I was lost? Drew some attention sitting there for 6 hrs.
QM0023_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAL QM0023_STABILITY: B = PROBABLY HOLD POSITION/ELEVATION WELL QM0023_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS SUITABLE FOR QM0023+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - April 15, 1992 QM0023 QM0023 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By QM0023 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS QM0023 HISTORY - 19920415 GOOD MIDT QM0023 HISTORY - 20010331 MARK NOT FOUND NGS QM0023 HISTORY - 20051115 MARK NOT FOUND WIDT QM0023
QL0664 CBN - This is a Cooperative Base Network Control Station. QL0664 DESIGNATION - WAUSAUKEE GPS QL0664 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By QL0664 HISTORY - 1989 MONUMENTED WIHD QL0664 HISTORY - 19900719 GOOD QL0664 HISTORY - 19971001 GOOD WIHD QL0664 HISTORY - 20010411 GOOD MIDT QL0664 HISTORY - 20040423 GOOD GEOCAC QL0664 HISTORY - 20051128 GOOD WIDT QL0664 HISTORY - 20080908 GOOD WIDT QL0664 HISTORY - 20140801 GOOD WIDT QL0664 HISTORY - 20150803 GOOD WIDT
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On 5/3/2020 at 1:01 AM, cerberus1 said:
It's our understanding that we can't even have a metal detector with us in a national park, but it's okay in most national forests.
Folks pan for gold and collect mineral samples in national forests...
We've "been caught" geocaching with handheld Garrets (super scanners) in a few state parks, in a couple of states (caching in winter).
Once they realized we had them so we didn't disturb anything, we had no issues.
I feel having a metal detector along presents a lot less hassle than being caught "digging" on any of those properties.
Not only is it not permitted in Nat'l parks, it can be a felony and get you arrested. I recall years ago we (state DOT) had one of our licensed surveyors arrested for digging for a section corner on nat't park land. The said corner was an original from the 1800's.
In addition to metal detecting, federal law also prohibits relic hunting, digging for artifacts, and removing artifacts or historical objects. These acts are illegal and can lead to confiscation of equipment, arrest, and prosecution as a felony under federal law. Penalties may include fines of up to $10,000 and possible prison time.
36 Code of Federal Regulations 2.1(a)(7) - the possessing or use of a metal detector magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device or subbottom profiler is prohibited.
Archeological Resource Protection Act 1979 - All natural, cultural, and archeological resources are protected and may not be removed or disturbed.
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U.S Engineers is the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers (COE).
►https://www.swt.usace.army.mil/
QuoteEarly 1941 - Tulsa District is building the Tulsa Aircraft Assembly Plant #3, (the Bomber Plant) which became home of McDonnell Douglas in Tulsa, Okla. Construction began on the $29 million Midwest City Air Depot (now Tinker Air Force Base) and the Oklahoma Aircraft Assembly Plant #5 in Oklahoma City which was annexed into Tinker in 1947 as Building 3001.
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The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), an agency in the Dept. of the Interior has the responsibility for producing our national topographic maps. They completed the monumental task of complete national mapping of the 1:24,000 scale map series (about 55,000 maps) in the early 1990's. USGS would often set survey monuments to help "control" the map. Maps are produced from aeronautical photos mosaiced together. In order to provide accurate location, orientation, scale and elevation to a flat map of a curved surface, it is required to have numerous points that can be identified on the photographs for which the coordinates/elevations are well known. The marks set by USGS were a vital part of this operation. In the days when mapping surveys were conducted primarily by line-of-site methods, these marks helped save money by helping to ensure a network that cartographers could rely on for mapping update procedures. With the rapid developments in surveying and mapping technology, especially GPS, USGS sees little need to setting new marks or maintaining the old networks. Unfortunately the data for tens of thousands of these marks set by USGS were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. Due to major reductions in staff and the changing nature of mapping requirements, it is highly unlikely that USGS will ever automate these data.
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Even the basic surveyor now uses GPS technology. Like on my DOT survey crew, it replaced people. I use to have a 2-3 man crew but when we got FHA funding to go GPS around 2000 I got 3 GPS receivers + established state wide CORS. They equipped all the DOT Survey crews with either GPS andor robotic total station/laptop computers etc and 1-man mapping and construction layout crew. GPS Technology replaced a lot of survey jobs. Cultural Changes.
For a $100,000 (more or less) they could provide a vehicle, 3 GPS receivers, misc equipment and replace a crew of 2-4 men cutting out wages, benefits and travel expenses so they could hire more managers (engineers).
FHA - Federal Highway Administration.
CORS - GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM CONTINUOUSLY OPERATING REFERENCE STATIONS
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On 10/1/2019 at 8:33 PM, Bill93 said:
Here is the big discussion of this on the forum a few years ago, with participation by Dave Doyle.
What in the world does that mean?
I think it means that there are too many iron objects, like water pipes, light poles, cars, concrete rebar, etc. near most of the old magnetic stations.
It means IMO that times have changed and there is no useful purpose for them anymore, obsolete, out-dated, old technology not applicable to modern time. Waste of time and resources continuing etc. Similar to how cell phone are making land lines obsolete.
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Not matter the original intention of the survey mark, position or elevation, subsequent work could have both. In other words, triangulation stations were later leveled to and had elevations determined. Also Bench Marks (elevation points) are routinely used for GPS. Why? Because they are there and fit the project.
Back in "the day" the U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey had essential three different survey functions for control marks.
1) General geodesy, set and observed by horizontal and vertical field units at the highest levels of positional accuracy. They are the ones who set Triangulation, Traverse and Bench Mark disks.
2) Airport survey crews responsible for positioning major airports as the foundation for instrument approach procedures and aeronautical charting. In many cases these field teams were small and usually set marks labeled "Topographic"
3) Shoreline crews - generally worked off USC&GS nautical charting ships. The often set "Hydrographic" disks as the support for either shoreline plane table surveys and/or associated photogrammetry surveys.
Most control information for these Topographic and Hydrographic marks was managed by the respective USC&GS offices that performed shoreline mapping and aeronautical charting. Since the majority of these stations were not observed to national geodetic standards they remained unpublished for the general public but often used for repeat mapping and charting work. Over the years, from time-to-time some of these marks were connected by the geodetic field teams and their positions upgraded to national standards and are now published by the National Geodetic Survey. Regrettably sometime back in the late '80s or early '90 the paper record of most of these marks were destroyed as they no longer served their original purpose with the advent of GPS.
bt DaveD (NGS Ret) -
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The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), an agency in the Dept. of the Interior has the responsibility for producing our national topographic maps. They completed the monumental task of complete national mapping of the 1:24,000 scale map series (about 55,000 maps) in the early 1990's. USGS would often set survey monuments to help "control" the map. Maps are produced from aeronautical photos mosaiced together. In order to provide accurate location, orientation, scale and elevation to a flat map of a curved surface, it is required to have numerous points that can be identified on the photographs for which the coordinates/elevations are well known. The marks set by USGS were a vital part of this operation. In the days when mapping surveys were conducted primarily by line-of-site methods, these marks helped save money by helping to ensure a network that cartographers could rely on for mapping update procedures. With the rapid developments in surveying and mapping technology, especially GPS, USGS sees little need to setting new marks or maintaining the old networks. Unfortunately the data for tens of thousands of these marks set by USGS were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. Due to major reductions in staff and the changing nature of mapping requirements, it is highly unlikely that USGS will ever automate these data.
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Bench Marks all across bridge at water level....
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In short, they are the basis for all mapping and surveying in the USA long before GPS became the norm...
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NGS Guideline
https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/surveys/mark-recovery/mark-descriptions-help.shtml#condition
DESTROYED; Irrefutable evidence of destruction. Absent such first-hand evidence, report as "not found"
NOT FOUND: Existence doubtful; recovery un-likely without extraordinary effort.
POOR: Damage or movement excessive for the designated stability &/or accuracy
GOOD: No evidence of tampering, subsidence, frost heave, etc. It is likely where it was when first observed.
Irrefutable - impossible to deny or disprove.
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Possible unlisted benchmark in Stockbridge, MA
in Benchmarking
Posted
Probably related to some local project or property boundary.