legacypac

Not necessarily. We would need to know when on the 3rd OReviewer published the cache. If it was before 4:00PM PDT, then the change to the rules had not yet been published. Another option is that even if it was published after the change, the cache owner could have edited the cache page after it was published. It's not something I'd be looking for, but for those that are closer and may care, either put a note on the cache page pointing out the new rules or email/message the reviewer. I'm sure the requirement will go away one way or the other. First off, I'm confused about what the the cache owner is requesting. Is it that as I have claimed a previous FTF, I can NEVER claim a find on his cache, or simply that I can not claim a FTF on his cache. After reading CCCA's note, I'm guessing the later. Second, it seems like this is a whole other topic. The owner is not requesting "Additional Logging Requirements" on his cache. On the contrary, he's imposing, (temporary), restrictions. While I have no problem with what the CO is trying to accomplish, (which seems to open up the FTF playing field to more players), whenever I read "Will be Deleted" in a cache description, my brain goes on Red Alert. It then it forces my hand to move the mouse cursor to the "Ignore" link. BTW, if this "hold off on the FTF" thing was requested, as opposed to demanded, I would gladly honor the request and look forward to reading the First Time FTF cacher's log, even if the cache was walking distance away. The way I read "As with other caches I have recently put out, this cache is reserved for anyone who has yet to claim a FTF. All other entries will be deleted." is that I am forever stopped from logging his caches since I have over 100 FTFs to my name. It is a Trad Cache - one I would mindlessly download and then only look at the cache page when I got to close to the cache (if I happen to get into the area). I went back to his last cache - where the page has been (likely) modified to say: "This cache is reserved for anyone who has yet to claim a FTF. Congrats to CeltsFan! All others are now welcome to claim this cache and sign the log. A small trackable coin has been placed to reward FTF." So I'm guessing he is just trying to spread FTFs around, which is just fine. But you sure can read it another way as I did.

I can see where using a third party tool to sort out caches no one on the team has done would be very useful. I understand GSAK can do that. Maybe other ways too. If the OP already has personal accounts, I would not want to clutter up my life with yet a third account for the "team". Logging takes enough time already.

I disagree with the premise of the OP in that I DO NOT always want to see caches maintained. Some caches turn out to be bad ideas, can't be maintained, continually go missing etc. There is also something to be said for owner archiving of lame caches. We have a big enough problem with people who throw out caches and forget them - reducing the hide count when they archive would just encourage people to resist archiving dead caches even more. In my area I've never noticed people archiving and relisting the same cache. Sure parks get reused, but by other (often new) cachers. Maybe other areas have this issue? I also have caches hidden in China and Malaysia that have never been found. They are still valid hides that are developing the game in areas I visit regularly.

What exactly would be the point of a group account? Who cares that between 10 friends they have found 70,000 caches? I'm curious what the reason behind the request is? We cache as a family with one account, with myself as the main cacher. Occasionally my partner finds a cache on her own, but we only log under the one account. No sweat

Red G-string hung in a tree on Sumas Mtn. The cache has been there for many years, and so has the underwear. Dead Bobcat on the road heading to a FTF. Deep in the urban woods - needles, condoms, porn, womens high heals, and women's clothing all lined up together within 6 ft of the cache. Scary stuff! The only time we have ever removed an active cache. Posted immediately what we did, relocated cache for owner in a better area of the park. Cache lives on. Not while geocaching but in the course of looking at real estate - two differant pot plantations.

They are not introducing Challange Caches - just recognizing that they permitted despite the ALR. I own "A BC Challange" that requires you find a cache for each letter of the alphabet before attempting the cache. It creates a nice optional activity and has encouraged some rare letter caches to be placed. Also OK (I presume) is Puzzle Caches that require finding info in various other caches to assemble the coords. Do you have an issue with these kind of series caches?

The owner lost cache twice within days of listing and appealed for help in on the cache page from experianced cachers. I checked out the situation, found a small cache in the truck, set it up, found a good spot for it, and replaced the cache. Emailed the owner new coords 80 ft away from the first ones. After all that I can't add to my hide stats, so I logged a find because there is no other way to clear it from my map. Disclosed EXACTLY what I did - and the owner was very happy with the help, thanking me publically and privately. I'm not into the glory, so I asked that he remove my name from the owner box, and tone the thanks down. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...a4-488beeb55c3c Of course I put the cache on my watch list. Today I read... June 8 by MrGigabyte (4910 found) Congratulations to legacypac for not finding the original cache, then hiding a replacement for the cache owner, then logging their own hide as a find. Nothing else in the log! Not a "nice park", "quick find", "good spot" "I saw a cool dog". Seems that the guy with the most finds in BC has forgotten the point of the game. Oh and when he could not find the cache before he just insulted it.

The way this sounds is that the physical geocache belongs to the person who posted the listing on geocaching.com. The listing is still geocaching.com property, if you will. If the geocache container is completely gone and the owner has not even logged in in over two years can a third party replace the container and adopt the LISTING? Except that generally once the container is gone, generally the reviewers consider there is nothing to adopt - so would not adopt listings. Therefore, they were adopting the containers (in thier minds?) and that is what has changed. I think the bigger underlying issue is that the increasing number of forced adoptions - and the process where Reviewers had to get consent from the Lilypad on a case by case basis - was taking too much valuable time and causing hard feelings when cachers came back from the dead and found thier listings gone/numbers reduced. Easy way out was to stop doing forced adoptions. (this is just speculation based on hints I've read and some of my own reading between the lines). It is not going to change as some key reviewers support the new policy as well - and there is a practical workaround of getting the old listing archived and relisting the cache. That procedure raises problems of having to get new land manager permissions etc, but it can work and I have now done it successfully once.

At least our friend Keystone gets to find some of the caches he reviews! Our main reviewer in BC (and especially the puppymonster) never gets to hunt caches in BC - and sure does not need to worry about getting FTF's before I get there. It's a long way from Atlanta to Vancouver. I set my caches out with "Cache Permanence" in mind. Unless something radically changes, or the spot turns out to stink for unforeseen reasons (it happens), I am hoping my future grandkids will be able to find my caches around the world. Especially the Earthcaches which are never going to be muggled. Therefore - since I intend for the caches to be there for months, years, even decades I could care less if it takes a 20 minutes, one week or two weeks to get published. If it is a good hide, it will still be there to be found in a few days. If the hide is not a good hide... well I deserve to lose it before it gets published and look silly when no one can find my muggled cache. Hide them well and use good containers and you too can have lots of great caches out there bringing you pleasure in your inbox everyday. But hey now that I know the standard is 20 minutes... mtn-man how come Keystone is so much faster than you are? And why do Team Misguided and PNWadmin compete to see who can get to publishing my caches faster?

Well you can all come here to hunt a film can on the edge of a cliff, but they thoughtfully placed a bucket of golfballs nearby. It was on my 20 nearest but then I got lazy at keeping up on the new local caches - but I'll have to go there someday... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...b3-cc6c0a19ff48 "The cache is at an altitude of 1104 feet. This means you will gain about 650 feet from the most likely parking area. No climbing equipment is required to get to the cache, but it is not recommended for those who are intimidated by large cliffs. There are many bush-trails in the area, not all of them are safe. Don't fall. The cache is a film canister and it contains a tiny log book and some small goodies. keep the size of the cache in mind if you bring something with you. There is also a stash of golf-balls nearby (within 15 feet) for whoever want's them." And yes I put a golfball in a cache once that I found near the cache (beside a golf course) but I TN so no one can complain.

You wanted something clear to cachers, but to others - which I might add is better then seeming to discriminate. I really like the encripted CACHERS ALLOWED idea. I also did a cache one that was clearly labeled "Do Not Disturb - Geo Research Site". You could post a small sign below the No Trespassing Sign that said "Geo Research Area" which darn near every cacher would interpret as a "come on in" but others would think means "stay out".

I use WAP.geocaching.com all the time. I love the speed and functionality that allows me to log caches and TB's in real time in the wild. I've found WAP to be very useful caching in China, Kuwait, UAE, Borneo... maybe other places. Sure saves on the data charges. Thanks so much. 1. The easy change that would really save me many trips to the main wwww site would be adding container size to the cache page. Knowing what you are looking for really helps a lot. Just the size, no need for the word container. 2. D/T numbers written as D2T3.5 would be interesting but not really that useful as peoples ideas of D/T vary a lot. 3. Being able to hit a "Nearest Caches" choice right after logging a cache would be the spectacular! I might never need download caches again at home. Just go from nearest to nearest all day long. As it is you have to go back, back, back or do another search with coords. I will be trying out the 49 01.123 -122 12.456 way of entering coords I learned about reading here tonight. That will save resetting the GPS to decimal, taking a reading, and resetting the GPS back to normal = a couple minutes of playing around each search.

Ok, so there are +/-'s to the revised policy. Moving on... Let's take a common situation I have encountered. Someone gets excited about caching, runs out and hides a couple caches. Somehow they manage to place a decent cache that does not get muggled immediately, or leak like a sieve. They find a couple caches too, but it's just not for them. They stop hunting caches, and stop reading those boring "TNLNSL" logs on their hides. Soon they have not logged on for a year and they don't respond to emails/posts. So now we have an orphened but decent cache. We no longer adopt orphans out but we "might" informally foster them. 1. Does the cache really really need an owner? (I know lots of now ownerless caches) 2. Is the lack of an owner - alone - fatal to the cache? 3. If no one has any reason to look at the cache ownership situation, do we not just let them live forever or die naturally? 4. Can we shoot the orphans and relist the orphan if they are still being visited and seem ok? 5. Can we shoot the orphan if an active cacher fixed up/replaced the cache and that active cacher wants to relist it? (this was suggested here with different phrasology) 6. If the cache belongs to the "owner/hider" and the owner/hider is AWOL is it not just abandoned property now that we can CITO? replace? reuse? relist? And to further get you thinking... 7. If an owner archives his own cache but leaves it in place (clearly abandons it with no further purpose for being there) logic tells me that I can relist the cache under my name. (Reviewers have long been prohibited from unarchiving caches to facilitate forced adoptions anyway)

I doubt that the policy is going to change, so I am just glad I was able to adopt a great spot with a 2002 cache when it was still possible. The cache lives on and on today under my care. Most troubled/missing caches with AWOL owners never get replaced by anyone, and never get adopted out anyway. They just fade into the sunset and eventually get shut down by reviewers. So the policy change is no huge loss to the game - regardless of the reason. Learning Outcomes and Action Plan: 1. If I ever quit the game (perish the thought!) I will be sure to adopt out my listings to other active cachers. I know that no one will do it for me later - so that is my job. 2. If I archive a listing I will be sure to remove the container. If it was a good enough place to justify a cache that I want to bring others to, it's a good enough place for me to visit one more time to remove the cache. 3. I will step up my efforts to locate and remove Archived Caches. While they are harder to see then active caches, they are not impossible to find. The most likely ones to be there are where a cacher just quits and shuts down all thier caches. Good places to look are: a) in one's "found" logs (where I already know what I am looking for and where). in the found lists and hides from profiles of long time prolific cachers (for caches I have not found). Look for an older local cache, go back the the early logs, and look at what else that cacher logged in the area to find archived listings. 4. Extra bonus points for finding, logging, and CITOing an abandoned cache. 5. If I search for a archived listing and don't find it, I will always log that fact to the old listing so future cachers know the cache is confirmed removed (by owner, muggle, or another cacher). 6. I will encourage cache owners to post in their archive logs if they removed the cache or not. There is a big discussion going on in the official thread - but not as interesting as this Canadian thread. Cache On.

I revise my previous statement about Groundspeak owning the Listing Info slightly. Based on the Terms of Use and other info we agree to when we list caches, the Listing belongs to Groundspeak but copywrite to the information (the IP) is retained by the submitter. This is likely to ensure that Groundspeak has a defence to claims against people claiming copywrite infringement for IP misappropriated by cachers and posted on the site. It's a fine distinction - and maybe a valid reason why GS does not want to reassign the IP (Intellectual Property) contained in a listing. I still stand by my statements that the cache container has been released into the public domain and no longer belongs to me, you or Groundspeak. The handling of troubled/missing caches varies a fair bit from what I can see and there is no real policy across regions or areas. I live in British Columbia where we only have one active reviewer (mtn-man) who also covers several US states. We keep mtn-man very busy dealing with new listings - frankly I don't see when he has time to find caches himself - and he does a great job, but it is impractical for him to keep up with activities that clean up the playing field. In BC I have noticed that many cache listings sit owner disabled/not even disabled but with obviously AWOL caches and owners for periods sometimes in excess of a year. This cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ad-f74040e5e86b has been gone since July 07 for example and lives in or near my 20 nearest. Archive notes in BC often go ignored by both reviewers and cache owners. In Washington State where I also often cache there are multiple active reviewers and from what I have noticed there seems to be a somewhat more aggressive stance toward cache archiving/pushing maintenance by the reviewers. While I don't totally agree with the new adoption policy, I do prefer clear policy (which at least this is). Things work best when we can all play the game by the same rules.

As others have pointed out - the cache and the cache listing are not the same. Cache Listing is owned by Groundspeak - and becomes Groundspeak property the second I submit it. Groundspeak (through Volunteer Reviewers usually) can publish, retract, store, distribute, archive, adjust or whatever they like because the listing belongs to Groundspeak. If you disagree with that concept, just try and set up your own website based on all the Groundspeak listings and see how long they allow you to run your site. While we do not own the listings we submit, good cachers do manage the listings linked to our user account. We can update coordinates, delete bogus logs, mark listings disabled or archived, update the text and so on. If Groundspeak does not like what I do or don't do they can change it, delete it, archive it or whatever they want to do. It seems like Groundspeak could also freely "adopt" out that listing to anyone they choose without penalty or liability. In the interest of keeping the customers happy Groundspeak would want to restrict the adoptions to selected curcumstances like where the owner no longer is active. I've also seen a bunch of listings adopted out when the user was site banned. Turning to the Cache Container... When we put a bunch of trinkets, a notebook, and a pencil in a box then set the box in the woods we no longer own that stuff. We have gifted the stuff into the PUBLIC DOMAIN. (adding text to Wikipedia is another modern example). Further, we invite others to come and take the stuff we placed in the box, hoping they will put some of thier stuff in the box instead. Stuff in the public domain is not your stuff anymore than it is my stuff. If I, or a muggle, or land manager, want to take your cache and remove, paint it, change it, move it up down or sideways, write on it, toss it in the trash or anything else there is not a darn thing you can do about it. Any cacher who has been to more then a few caches has done many or even all of these things. I have removed busted containers and replaced them with new ones. I have moved a cache from where I found it in the open 100 feet away back to its likely intended hiding spot. I have painted and repainted caches, written the name and coords with a sharpie on caches, and I have personally "found logged" and then removed long since archived caches. I usually post right on the cache page exactly what I did to the cache because it is common sense and these logs beat the TNLNSL type logs. That cache is in the public domain and anyone can do whatever they want with it. Groundspeak can't transfer ownership of the cache container to anyone because Groundspeak does not own the container and neither does the person who hid it. The container and its contents are in the Public Domain now. I see no reason why Groundspeak should not permit the transfer of management of abandoned listings. There are several good reasons to adopt out listings including: avoiding geolitter, perserving history of caches, better relations with land managers etc. Even just having someone active to archive the cache when it goes missing finally. Players quit - we know that. I like the idea of getting listings adopted before they quit, but really how are we to know they are planning to quit soon? From what I've seen a good cache that merits adoption is one that goes on for years trouble free, often long after the hider quits the game. It would get adopted when something changes and needs to be done - and an active cacher steps forward. In the unlikely event a player comes back from the dead and wants an adopted listing returned most cachers would return the listing to the hider in a heartbeat - we ARE talking about cachers willing to take on other peoples caches here who give credit to the original hider anyway. I hope Groundspeak reconsiders thier position in light of this discussion. Listen to the paying customers please.

I have adopted a historic cache in the past, and was trying to adopt another but stopped by this policy change. A good cache can develop issues that can only be practically corrected by an active owner (like moving it slightly to minimize off trail damage and updating the coords). I don't think that the cache actually "belongs" to the "owner". Once you hide a box with trinkets in the woods it has been placed in the public domain. It is subject to being taken by landowners, muggles, even animals. If it gets cracked other cachers might replace the box and toss the old one. Others might replace soggy logbooks, and off course we all remove items and add items. None of these things are "yours" exclusively anymore. They are all game pieces and it is our job to "protect the integrity of the game pieces". The listing online belongs to Groundspeak - otherwise I could just copy all the listings and set up my own large geocaching site based on the Groundspeak data without penalty. So what we really adopt is the Groundspeak owned "listing" from an inactive player to an active player account. This allows an active player to manage the listing going forward. In the unlikely event that an inactive cacher comes back from the dead and wants their cache listing back, I would think that pretty much all adopters would gladly freely return the listing to the first owner. We give credit to the hiders anyway on the adopted listing. This new policy does not make much sense to me - and as a paying customer I didn't ask for it.

Earthcaches go through a different procedure then regular caches. geoaware reviews the listing and publishes it. They then send you an adoption request, which you must accept to gain ownership of the listing. If you don't accept it, geoaware will kill off the listing. Once you are the new owner you can modify the cache page (within reason). Add text formating, photos, html etc. You may also need to enable the cache. Sometimes geoaware will request minor changes to the listing but still publish it. You can make the changes after you accept the adoption. You will also want to put your own handle in the "placed by" box. I saw another guy do this and copied him -so that all my earthcaches are listed as placed by "legacypac, a Gold Earthcache Master". This is to promote the free and very cool Earthcache Master Program. The "listed date" on the cache page is modifiable and you might want to change it so the listing will show up as a new cache as of the day it is published. Sometimes it might take a week or more to get it approved and adopted to you, so it will not look like a "new" cache unless you update the date. If you have any other questions I will try to answer them. I've got 7 Earthcaches in 3 juristictions, so I've learned a few things by trial and error now.

I have adopted a historic cache in the past, and was trying to adopt another but stopped by this policy change. A good cache can develop issues that can only be practically corrected by an active owner (like moving it slightly to minimize off trail damage and updating the coords). I don't think that the cache actually "belongs" to the "owner". Once you hide a box with trinkets in the woods it has been placed in the public domain. It is subject to being taken by landowners, muggles, even animals. If it gets cracked other cachers might replace the box and toss the old one. Others might replace soggy logbooks, and off course we all remove items and add items. None of these things are "yours" exclusively anymore. They are all game pieces and it is our job to "protect the integrity of the gamepieces". The listing online belongs to Groundspeak - otherwise I could just copy all the listings and set up my own large geocaching site based on the Groundspeak data without penalty. So what we really adopt is the Groundspeak owned "listing" from an inactive player to an active player account. This allows an active player to manage the listing going forward. In the unlikely event that a inactive cacher comes back from the dead and wants thier cache listing back, I would think that pretty much all adopters would gladly freely return the listing to the first owner. We give credit to the hiders anyway on the adopted listing. This new policy does not make much sense to me - and as a paying customer I didn't ask for it.

I have created a 6 Earthcaches so far. A marl mine turned park. Sure the park has 5 caches in it but you would never know about the mine from them. One is in a Hot Springs Resort - the area has caches too, but you would be amazed at the info people are digging up on this one. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...0c-6de332c410f9 Barkerville Gold Striike! in an old gold mining town China's first earthcache in a massive show cave - yet to be logged though All are here. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...amp;u=legacypac All are unique and well received. Go set an Earthcache - they are a lot of fun to research and then see the logs. The best idea I had was to require that the seeker post some interesting information about the site in thier log. That ensures that the logs are interesting to read.

So I went and looked. I've seen no maint. but this is jut silly. Send the owner a link to this thread (rightly or wrongly). Maybe disable at least - or archive - but why wreck the experiance by leaving up a yukky hide.

And then there are hints that are just cleaver (IMHO). "at SOUTH POPLAR CEMETARY" for a cache named "South Poplar". Seems totally useless until you realize you are staring at the gate with those words in all caps on it. Most people find it right after they realize the meaning and the fact is a giveaway.

In BC we have many caches that have been down for month and months. Often they are clearly gone. I post SBAs every so often when I spot one just to help clean up the playing field. With my nearest 20 caches pushed back over 20 km some of the long gone caches sit on my nearest list and sit and sit. I've also adopted a couple caches where the container needed to be replaced - both voluntary adoption and involuntary adoption. But that is another thread for another day I would like some guidence from a Reviewer on SBA logs. Are they appreciated by reviewers? When is enough enough for a disappeared cache?

What is the current policy on BC Parks and Geocaches? Does this issue need more work?

I own a small security firm and have learned that painting over tagging quickly discourages crime. Step one for gangs is often to tag a spot. If no one reacts, it means that no one is watching or cares. Step two is to commit other crimes there. In Vancouver there is the West side and the East side. The West side is pretty much free of tagging, and is pretty safe for a large city. The East side is home to the street level drug dealers, homeless people, etc. On the East side no people do not bother to paint over tagging or fix vandalism. Its a circle - vandalism breeds crime and crime breeds vandalism. So if you want to help paint over vandalism - great! Cooperate with the local parks department so you do it right.