Team JKKnK

Well, here's my answer: because you can't control what other people do, you can only control what you do and how you react to what other people do. Sure, you could make adults/kids-only caches, and I think in theory that's not a bad idea, but how would you enforce it? You could just as easily make a note in the description communicating your intent, but you're still at the mercy of people who find it. Personally, I'm with the others who have said they are in it for the hunt. But obviously, that's not true of everyone. I cache with the kids and I don't think I've taken anything for myself yet, but what I'm enforcing with them is to leave something of similar value to what they take, or to take nothing at all. I'm new to the sport and have not set up my own caches yet. When I do, I will probably put a mix of "good" vs. "toy" items in, request a like for like trade in the description, and hope for the best. But I know that the reality is I can't enforce anything, and if I can't accept that, then I won't place the cache in the first place. No need to set myself up for unnecessary disappointment. And for the people who use broken stuff/used dental floss, that's just gross. I don't understand why people would do something like that. I'm with you 100%. I have low-cost items in the car for hunts, and while they may not be of much value, they are certainly more valuable than the 90%+ junk that is usually in there. I usually don't trade myself, but if I did come across something interesting, I would still TNLN, and curse myself for not preparing for that cool trade. I would hope that finders who come across any of my caches (When I get the set up) would simply take the junk out of there, and only leave items with value. Practically, I can see a few plastic toys for the kids, and of course anything interesting to an adult, but anything dirty, broken, or just plain gross, can be thrown away, and I'd trust finders to make their own judgement on that. There have been many times I've wanted to just scoop up the "crap" and throw it away, but never have because I don't know if the cache owner would be happy or upset. FWIW - My first cache should be a very challenging puzzle cache, designed to appeal to people who like to figure out puzzles. The prizes I expect to put in there will hopefully be nice enough to equal the challenge of the hunt, and I hope that people who hunt for it will either trade appropriately, or not trade at all, but there is no way for me to control it, so I understand that I'm basically spending my money for other people's enjoyment. I guess that's my decision. We are way off topic now, so that is all...

IC, The fact is, you could place a cache in the most remote location possible, but GC.com cannot confirm that without actually going out there and checking up on it, nor can they guarantee that youngsters can not reach it. YOU can say that it is not reachable by kids, and while that might be true, but it is also true that OTHERS can make that same claim and be lying. There is no reasonable way that GC.com can check each instance. They have to take your word for it. So, if they approve your cache, knowing that it contained a banned item, then you can count on others figuring out that they can place whatever they want in their caches since GC.com approved this one. I understand your point of view, and had actually considered using decorative knives as prizes before finding out that it was against GC.com's rules (Though mine were not that expensive). However, I suggest that if you really want to hand out a knife as a reward, then there have been a couple of reasonable suggestions on how that can be done and still follow the guidelines. That would be a compromise between doing exactly what you want, and what GC.com requires. Of course, you can do what you want, whether that be posting the cache on your own website, posting on another caching site, or simply not mentioning "precisely" what the FTF prize was. Fact of the matter is, GC.com did what was best for this site IMO, and that was to have fairly open guidelines (only a few items are actually banned) while appeasing those who would fear lawsuits due to the negligence of others. By banning items that those people, who are vital to the sport, consider innapropriate to a "family-friendly" activity, they reached an agreement with those people so that people can use those lands. Some others have mentioned that there are other sites that do not have those rules in place. Fact is that there are a LOT of people who appreciate those rules, judging by the number of people who use GC.com as a listing service, as opposed to those who use other sites. (Edit to delete a quote I did not mean to have in there)

I'm not trying to detract from your post, but many people believe that the find itself is the reward for finding a difficult cache. Personally, I prefer the easy peasey ones, but I'm wimpy like that. Good point, and also one of my points that there are lots of people who do this sport BECAUSE it's challenging, not simply to rack up hundreds of finds for their stats. That quote was meant to stress that I believe in practicing the trade up, or trade even philosophy. Of course, people can do what they want, whether it is just taking the prize, or just not taking the prize. However, as a hider, I want to acknowledge the efforts for those who find a very difficult cache by rewarding them with a prize. They can choose to take it or leave, as they wish. Also that I personally enjoy the challenge of the find, and may not even take the prize (Depending on what it was!) Also, I believe in low-impact caching, and try my hardest to leave no trace in the outdoors when I'm out. If I were to place a cache, then I would do so carefully, and try not to endanger any sensitive areas. However, I believe that finders should also respect the environment, and be careful while hunting for that elusive find. That said, I think that there is a misconception that tramping around and distrubing rocks is bad for the environment. I think that cutting trees and underbrush would be a bad thing, but otherwise churning up the leaves and turning rocks is not a big deal to the environment, as long as it wasn't along a hiking trail where people would object to seeing overturned rocks. More than likely, the area will revert to a natural-looking state in short order. Again, I emphasize the importance of low-impact caching foremost, and wish everyone could remember that every time they go out.

Oh, and welcome to the geocaching site! I hope you consider trying it out. I feel bad that you had to be introduced to the hobby/sport in such a manner.

It's a fact that even "intelligent" breeds require a good amount of training, and usually considerable amounts of training. I find that most people don't actively and properly train their dogs, or that they spend time training the wrong way. That said, there are large number os breeds that are difficult to control reasonably. Those dogs have high energy, and strong urges to play. These require much more effort to train. You can never train a dog to be 100% reliable, even though I've seen some that appear that way. They do have their own wills, and under some circumstances will submit to those wills over their owners wills. That said, if the park was VERY well marked, then the cachers shoudl have expected to be on their guard for dogs approaching them. If the park was not VERY well marked, then it should be. A dog jumping on a person is to be expected, if the dog has not been properly trained for being off the leash. It doesn't matter if the dog was being friendly or not. I would not appreciate ANY dog jumping on me without me asking it to. My in-laws got a dog 2 years ago that grew up to be a large Rott/Lab/whatever. When it was young, but still large, it had a habit of jumping and bumping and slobbering. My father-in-law said "He just likes to jump on you." as if there was nothing he could do about it. I told him to stick his knee out and when the dog bumps into it, he will not like it. He seemed skeptical, but after about 3 more jumps with me sticking my knee out, Jackson stopped jumping on me. He did not stop jumping on others, though, because I was the only one he would get a knee for it. After that, they started using that technique and the dog rarely jumps at all now. The knee is a great training method, as long as it isn't hard enough to injure. The dog will most likely not like the feeling of a knee to the chest, even if it isn't enough to hurt. After a very short time, they just seem to stop. I agree with the crouching as signalling playtime for a dog. It was an unfortunate incident, but it sounded like the people were suprised enough that getting up to prevent the action was not possible. Any dog, even in a dog park, should be controlled to the extend expected. Jumping on someone crouching would certainly fall in to the "expected" category, in my mind. That is playing, and that is what the park is for. So, the problem in my mind is that these people went to a Dog Park, not knowing that it was a Dog Park, and did not know what to do. If they wanted to pursue any legal actions, they would have to prove that there was some form of injury, either physical, or emotional, and that they were not properly forewarned. To prevent this kind of thing from happening again, I recommend making sure the park is WELL marked, and that the cache hider inform people of the dog park on the cache page. In addition, the practice of identifying a cache with the defacto Geocaching informational note is recommended and normally adhered to, so that someone happening to come across it will know what it is.

I think that placing rules on this subject is unecessary, and unwise. You can easily have the site filter out micros if you dont' want to find them, and people who DO like the challenge of finding these caches can choose to go out on the hunt. Of course, I like finding regular caches too, but nearly all of the caches I've found so far have really only had small plastic animals in them, so for me, it isn't so much about the prize anyway, it's the challenge, and I'd like to see as many of them as people want to put out. Of course a nice prize after finding a very difficult cache is nice, but you still have the pride of finding it. I would not choose to place a difficult cache without reward equal to the difficulty myself, but I would hunt for them. I can appreciate the cleverness that goes into a well-placed cache.