fastcatcher

It seems we've been celebrating a cooperation with Tom and GC a bit too early. Obviously GC made some changes on their website and Tom's app is down at the moment. So I don't think that GC really made a working deal with Tom - maybe they just tolerate it, when Tom's programm is using their website, but it doesn't seem that GC is cooperating with Tom to keep his programm running for us WinMo-folks, otherwise the programm wouldn't be down... Did I renew my PM too early?

I understand, that GC won't promote Tom Hiro's application on their frontpage But I also see that GC is willing to move forward!!! I understand the verification from MM in the way, that GC is willing to listen to their members and willing to find some common ground. That's all I wanted to know for the moment and I will renew my premium membership today!!! Thanks xhozt for bringing up this subject. Thanks all the people who supported this thread with their opinions and their suggestions. Thanks Tom Hiro for his fantastic Geocache application for the WinMo-platform. And thanks Groundspeak for showing the ability to listen and to find some compromise!!!

Even Motorcycle Mama says it's authorized now!!! I wonder how she knows ?! I would immediately renew my premium membership!!!

He also said that there wouldn't be any more comments from them here either. Hmmmm, where does he say this? Here is his post (#95): I am Groundpeak's legal counsel and I am responsible for protecting Groundspeak intellectual property (Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents) as well as enforcing the Terms of Use Agreement. The GZCII application is using Groundspeak's registered Trademarks and other intellectual property without consent. The GCZII application is an automated tool that scrapes data from the geocaching.com website without authorization in violation of the Geocaching.com Terms of Use Agreement. At this point, the application developer and I will be meeting shortly to discuss options. Until the issues are resolved between Groundspeak and this developer, we have no interest in allowing the application to be promoted in the Groundspeak discussion forums and we will not be issuing further comments regarding this application. I see, that GC won't be issuing further comments regarding this application. From my point of view this doesn't mean, that we'll stay uniformed forever about the subject itself and a possible solution. But then - I'm not a native speaker... But if we won't get any information about this in a thread that is dealing with this subject, where would we get the news? Frontpage Groundspeak??? I'm very interested to know!!!

I'm also waiting for quite a while now for an official status. On Jan 21 Bryan (Groundspeak's legal counsel) posted in this forum that he "soon" will discuss options with the application developer (which must be Tom Hiro?!). Since than... nothing !!! Do I have to take this as a sign, that GC is not interested in finding an official solution? Was this statement just "hot air"? Groundspeak just sent me a reminder to renew my Premium Membership, but I'm really undecided what to do...

We already learned in posts #57, #59 and #60 what Groundspeak understands under "trusted partner" (= paying distributors). @ Lee_rimar: You say "... that Windows Mobile really is a small part of the smartphone market, and diminishing." Well if I have a look at the actual marketshare for the whole year 2009 (worldwide / not US-market alone) for mobile-platforms I get another impression: Symbian: 38% Windows Mobile: 15% RIM (Blackberry): 15% Iphone: 13% Android: 6% But it seems to me, that the latest discussions in this forum are leading a bit "off topic" - so I will step back and wait for the results between Bryan (the GC legal counseler) and Tom (the developer of the app for the WinMo-platform). Hopefully we'll soon hear about some positive results.

It's good to hear, that you too like to go geocaching just with your cellphone without any pre-planning. If you did it legally so far, you are probably using an IPhone and can understand the request of the WinMo-community for a comparable app for this platform. As you probably know this great app allready exits and all that has to be done is to find a way to make it legal. I agree with you, that not having this app is an inconvienence (and not a tregedy). I still like to go Geocaching with my Garmin 60CSx, when I go out on a planned Tour. But I also learned from this thread, that a lot of Geocachers have nothing else then their WinMO-Cellphones for Geocaching. And what frustrated a lot of them was the fact, that some Mobile platforms (specially the IPhone-platform) seems to get a lot more attention by GC then others. I also agree with you, that some posts didn't have been appropriate in their wording. As I already mentioned, I don't think it's helpfull to use heavy cynism or personal accusations/offenses when you want to reach a common goal. But I'm hoping that you recognized, that the majority of the WinMo-users in this Forum tried to stay calm and fair in their posts. I'm hoping that GC won't put the "blanket of silence" about this subjects and that negotiations between GC and Tom are in progress (like Bryan said) and we'll soon will hear some positive results.

I believe that forums like this are important! It must be possible to post a statement that expresses a different point of view! I don't think that personal accusations or intensive cynism are helpful to find a constructive solution, but I also find it kind of strange, if simply using the name of a programm makes you feel like a criminal (specially when even the legal counsel is allowed to mention it). I wouldn't understand if this thread would be closed, because it would look like GC is ignoring all the people who are trying to find a solution for a Geocache-application for the WinMo-platform (and as far as I understood Bryan - the legal GC-counsel - is just trying to do this together with Tom). I think that in some of the threads the frustration of the WinMo users is not correctly expressed, but freedom is also freedom of speech! The fact that it seems that GC has ignored the wish of the WinMo-community for quite a long time and the experience of censorship in some posts of this forum may have lead to some of these unnecessary over-reactions. But from my point of view, the closing of this thread would be counterproductive and heating up the vicious circle. I think the facts are on the table, Bryan anounced that there will be dicussions with the developer of the WinMo-app and hopefully there will be a solution soon for a lot of people who are waiting for it. Keep these people informed and updated. You couldn't do this by closing this thread!

Thank you for your posts. This quoted bit is the only point where I wanted to clarify. Groundspeak and the moderating team have been aware of the application for many months. I don't enjoy censoring posts, but I've been doing that off and on for nearly a full year regarding this application. It is by no means a new issue. The issue has only come to the forefront recently because the screenscraper broke with the latest website update. And I think this discussion has made it clear, that the WinMo-users don't want to live in illegality forever (or how Primitive Person put it "snuck under GS's radar"). All we are asking for, is to use legally a Geocache-Application like it allready exits for a long time for the IPhone. The App for the WinMo-Platform is already there. Many users think it is even better then the App for the IPhone. All that has to be be done is bringing GC and Tom together to find a solution to make this application legal. This seems to be in progress, which I appreciate very much. Some of the WinMo-users got frustrated, because it took GC so long, to show a sign of good-will to their request. So they've been thinking about to renew their Premium membership (like Primitive Person was thinking about throwing his TyTN II against the wall when trying Geocaching Live) This has nothing to do with whining around or shooting ourselves in the foot!!!

Thanks for the update. I'm totally against the "automated tool" part, but its good to see that Groundspeak is working in a solution with Tom. Maybe I did wrongly understand orginal Bryan's post. But to me his lawyer's lingo sounded like threat to xxx application autor. Yes, at the beginning it sound like he did. But I don't think is in their best interest to treat Tom or us. Lets wait and see the result of their discussion. I agree - they are talking, discussing. That's two way communication (vs cease and desist which is one way), and that's what most of us were asking for in this thread. I hope the discussions go well for Tom and for our geocaching community The cynic in will step aside for a while... Hopefully this is the start of GS paying a bit of attention to it's users and customers, and hopefully they are looking to step in the right direction... which is basically what we all wanted in this thread. Whilst a certain amount of bashing may continue from non winmo users who think we're over-reacting, I think we should all step back for a while and wait for an update. It would be a shame for it all to fall apart now if we were to go too far. Cheers Agreed!!!

Ooops - Bryan named the evil-program!!! I wonder if this post will soon be edited But seriously: Is this good news? I think yes. We've got an official comment from GC! GC is willing to meet with Tom to discuss options! I think that this is not the right time where we should discuss, if Tom's App is an automated tool or an user initiated tool. I take Bryan's comment as a "good-will-sign" and I'm glad that GC showed, that they are still listening to their members. It would be nice if we could be informed about the development of the discussion between GC and Tom, so that there is no need for rumours and wrong interpretation.

Folks - let's try to stay constructive. We all share the same hobby and it should be our goal to find a solution that suits hopefully everyone. I can understand the frustration of the WinMo-user (I'm using a WinMo-phone myself) how GC is handling this subject. I can't understand the censorship-policy of Groundspeak (even if I read what they call their "reasons" why they are acting, like they do). From my personal point of view, this is very close to a restrictive "China-behaviour". But accusations, cynical comments AND censorship will just lead to the point, where both positions will become more rigid and we will withdraw from the chance to find a solution. For me there is some silver lining at the horizon when Brad says (in his definetly not easy function as a GC-Mod): I believe him and I'm really really hoping that GC is still able to listen to their members. I think meanwhile it's clear, that we are not a small bunch of outlaws, who have nothing better to do, then to fill this forum with our comments - just for the fun of it. I'm hoping that GC can still react like a modern business and moves into a dialogue with their members/customers and taking their wishes and needs seriously. To act like a dictatorship won't push them forward to a better business. I will very attentive watch how GC will react and I'm hoping that Brad is right, when he says, that our posts "brought helpful information in many areas" and "that our interest has been heard". Hopefully we will hear a positive echo to our calls. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm still believing in the good in people. I still believe that we all want to find ways to support the hobby we share together. It's really not that difficult to find a solution!!! So let us WinMo-users stay constructive and PLEASE GC give us a sign that you still care!

Of course, it means paying. Why wouldn't it? Groundspeak is a business. Now we are getting somewhere!!! Can we take this as an official statement from GC? If yes, than thank you for this clear message! I prefer to know what I'm dealing with - rumours just produce misunderstandings! But wouldn't it be clearer when you say "Paying Distributor" (instead of "Trusted Partner") for Third-Party-Companies like "Trimble" right from the beginning? And why is GC not cooperating with a developer like TH, who has a brilliant Geocaching-software and a lot of WinMo-Geocachers who are even willing to pay for this app? I understand that GC is using my yearly fee ($ 30) as a premium member to run this site and to provide the Internet-service for the Geocache community. I understand and support this. But how many premium members does GC has? Multiply that by $30 - and I'm sure you find a good base to run a business. But at the end of the day business always depends on its customers (=members). And the key for a successful business is a good customer orientation. If you want to keep your business alive you gotta listen what your customers want. If your business-plan looks different, to what your customers want (or if you think, it's just a minority of your customers who ask for things that you don't want to deliver) you have to be honest and explain this in a honest way and you better present some good alternatives. Otherwise you are risking to loose your customers. It only starts with a few... But the word spreads around! I really think that Geocaching is a great hobby and I appreciate what GC did to build up this site in the Internet. But you need to move on! You need to watch, what happens around you. You need to be flexible and you need to be able for finding solutions. Otherwise you are nothing like a Dinosaur and you shouldn't wonder if your members (maybe just a few in the beginning) follow the principle "Love it, change it or leave it".

Well - the point is not, that Groundspeak is not coming up with a solution for the WM-platform first, but that they seem to repress all solutions that don't fit into their business plan (probably because they can't make extra-money with that app, because it was developed by other Geocachers, who are willing to share this programm for free). I might could tell you about a great Geocaching-programm that works fine for the Palm webOS, but unfortunately I'm not allowed to tell you the name in this forum, because otherwise I probably will be immediately shot according to martial law...

Hmmm - not really. I see a lot of questions. I see a big discussion. I see a lot of confusion. I see parts of the strict TOU from GC. What I don't see are any answer from GC to the open questions. What I don't see is the willingness from GC to listen, what their members are saying and the will to find a solution both sides can live with. What I don't see is an explanation why some third parties (e.g. Trimble) can use the API, while it's strictly forbidden (I'm not even allowed to mention the name of those programms here) for others. If you want to convince me, you have to give me some good reasons!

I'm a Premium GC-member. I'm not happy how GC is handling the situation with the Windows-Mobile-Platform. I can't understand that only IPhone and Nokia phones are supported. I have no idea why GC would ban a programm and is not offering any alternatives. I believe that caching with smartphones is the future. I confess that I used the program of "you know who" and I admit that I liked it. I don't feel ashamed for what I did and I probably would do it again. I believe in the freedom of speech. I don't know why GC can't make a deal with Tom Hiro to make the whole thing legal. I'm hoping that GC will act a bit more tolerant and listen to their members, who -so far- paid their yearly membership-fee, because they thought they supported a great sport/hobby and an organization "of Geocachers for Geocachers".