drat19

Fine, I give up, then. (I'm not saying I feel like you're more "right" than I feel I am; I'm just saying I'm sick of arguing with you.) Once again, if it's important that you feel like you "won" because I decided not to argue further with you, then that's great for you. My pride/manhood are perfectly intact. I will continue to have my opinion and you will continue to have yours...and I will continue to have people who agree with my point of view, as will you for yours. The game has changed. You're obviously fine with how it has changed. I liked the game better when there were fewer of us playing and the overall nature of the game was different as regards the wheat/chaff issue, and as regards the ability to compete for stats on a more level playing field. If that makes you a more adaptable person than me, then once again, that's great for you...my pride/manhood are still perfectly intact.

Again, the response we keep hearing from the folks like yourself who express strong dislike for a certain flavor of geocache is reasonable in itself, yet many of these people – like yourself – either continue to hunt them – or worse, they call for them to be controlled somehow even while others are obviously enjoying them. Why? I’ve yet to be convinced that “lame” caches are difficult to detect (I’m not that smart and I have never had any trouble detecting them – I don’t even use PQs), and neither have I been convinced that the game suffers due to there mere existence. I work really hard to avoid obvious Spew, but every now and then I don't know what it is until I've made the effort to drive/arrive at the hide location. Why? Why whine about something you can't control? Why let it bother you when there's no reason to let it bother you? Why make yourself miserable? Yes, I've always understood that putting my fingers in my ears and singing LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA is an option. It's just not one I prefer to use. I don't have any further responses to offer to the rest of your post. Let's let that part of the discussion slide. It's -10 degrees this morning here in the Twin Cities...I'm heading out to a good caching buddy's house (yep, we became friends because of this game) for an afternoon of Scrabble and Monopoly. See ya later.

That's an interesting story, and it does sound typical, but I must have missed the part where you explained how the park and grab negatively affects anything. Cacher A can't figure out why so many geocachers are skipping his cache requiring any physical effort. He sees all the finds on the easy cache, and he takes his ball home, and quits hiding caches, because he rarely gets any finds. The sport gets taken over by "easy cachers, placing easy caches." Those of us who like hard caches have to spend time and effort looking for "Cacher A type hides." Geocaching is evolving into a Sedentary Hobby KF, we're on the same side of this debate, but I have a slightly altered take on your point: I like "hard caches" only VERY occasionally. What I like all the time are NICE caches...nice locations, nice cache hides, and caches I CAN FIND. Spewed micros are generally none of these. NOT ALL MICROS, but those of the Spew variety...thoughtlessly placed, obviously for the purpose of stats for the finders and those incredibly ego-gratifying "Found it" Emails for the hiders, and with no other regard to the quality of the location.

That's an interesting story, and it does sound typical, but I must have missed the part where you explained how the park and grab negatively affects anything. To me, it takes a lot more effort to separate the wheat from the chaff when you have to sift through so many more parking lot hides to find that waterfall. That's negative. It's not the one parking lot cache at that trailhead...it's the 50-100-more of them just like it that flood the search radius. Again, I preferred it when the waterfall cache was the only option in the area. Others are happy there are now more choices. I think it was a better game without those choices...when you could introduce a friend/family member to the game, and whatever cache you chose to bring them to as their "first" could pretty much be expected to be memorable/interesting/worthwhile. Think about all the news stories we've seen where the reporter follows a cacher to a cache to "show the viewing audience". True, some of those reporters DO make reference to urban hides, but do they ever SHOW them on camera? Very rarely. (I think I did see it shown ONCE.) They always show the trail/woods/waterfall hike. That used to be the norm in our game. No longer. In fact, imagine if a reporter showed the audience the typical parking lot lampskirt hide. Can you imagine the backlash we would get, in our terrorist-paranoid world nowadays??

Good, because if you and I were discussing this over a beer I'd be happy to say the very same things I'm posting here, and to ask you the very same questions. And I'd buy the beer. Sounds good. I have family members who live in Cumming...that may well happen one day. There's a joint right down the road where they have over 100 varieties ... on tap! Let's submit it as an Event Cache! One smiley logged for each different beer sampled? Oh God, let's not get THAT argument started! I lived in the ATL for 5 years (Duluth)...my car tends to steer itself away from the ATL now. But I do still visit from time to time, so I'll keep that in mind and look you up. Maybe our BC "friend" can take a cue from this discussion and realize that it's possible to respectfully agree to disagree and not make it personal.

Well actually, at the time I made that request, that BC-based cacher was getting a bit out of hand with the personal attacks...at the time, it WAS time. Things have calmed down since then, obviously. (And by plonking him, I no longer have to see his attacks.)

Here is my take on the explosion of urban, uncreative hides. Caching has become quite popular with retired folks, sedentary people, as well as disabled people. This created a "niche market" for easy terrain finds that appealed to cachers who don't like five-hour hikes. This type of cacher wanted to "give back" to the geocommunity, and they spread the second generation of "easy caches." The race for smileys, in pursuit of "perceived status," has caused a real explosion of easy caches. Now a someone who is grossly out of shape, or in a wheelchair can have more finds, than someone who only finds 3 star terrain or higher caches. When you go to event caches, and visit the local forums, you continually see congratulatory threads expounding on said cacher's latest milestone. Since "find count" is so important, as well as how many finds you made in 24 hours, the race to find easy caches has taken over. I'll give a great example of how this has affected the game. There is a parking lot for a scenic trail, that leads to a scenic waterfall, or some other natural wonder. Cacher A hides a cache at the scenic view. Everyone who finds Cacher A's cache write long "found it" logs, and takes lots of pictures. Then comes along Cacher B who dislikes hiking, and places a "park and grab" cache at the trail parking spot. Cacher B's caches gets ten times as many finds as Cacher A's cache. This is the "new numbers game." Thank you, KF...well stated.

Good, because if you and I were discussing this over a beer I'd be happy to say the very same things I'm posting here, and to ask you the very same questions. And I'd buy the beer. Sounds good. I have family members who live in Cumming...that may well happen one day.

Understood. So I'll offer this kitchen counter to your counter of my counter and put it on the counter table: Is it okay for the number seekers to do so? I don't see them really interfering much with those that want to skip them. I suppose if all of the micros prevented the other ones from getting placed (which I can't see happening too much geographically) it might interfere. Not that I'm suggesting a change (and perhaps I'm likely not the first to mention it), but perhaps the .10 guideline should be flexed by certain reviewers to allow a larger container nearby ones like this if this is that much of a problem in their area. Other than that, I don't truly see much harm in their activities. I see it as they're just caching their way. Once again, I think you make valid counterpoints. I think at the heart of the matter is that, as a non-newb, I've watched the evolution of the game since I started playing almost 5 years ago, and I preferred it "old school"...when the numbers really were comparable. I enjoyed the friendly competition for stats, and I enjoyed the fact that while compiling my high (at the time - pre'04) stats, I pretty much enjoyed high-quality caching experiences along the way. I don't see that being the case anymore. I had to sacrifice the stats game in order to continue to enjoy my caching...and to me, having to sacrifice the stats part of the game in order to do that took away some of my overall enjoyment. YMMV.

Then why did you issue a formal request for the thread to be shut down? You never really answered Mushtang's question: Instead of begging MM to lock it, why not just NOT click on the link? ... or mine. I posted what I thought were some clear and reasonable questions as well: If you don't like seeing the issue discussed anymore, then why continue to read the thread? If you're NOT reading the thread, does it bother you that others are continuing to discuss the issue in a thread you're NOT reading? If so, does that give you any legitimate say as to whether the thread you're NOT reading should be shut down? You danced around the answer a bit: I'm similarly tired of this thread...and yet I still check in on it. Why? That's what I'm asking. If you're tired of it, why torture yourself? I will say one thing, though: I was THRILLED when this page finally dropped to page 2 a few days ago, before the horse was brought back to life for further beatings. If you were THRILLED that the thread dropped off the first page, then shouldn't you be THRILLED to know that you possess the power NOT to click on the thread at all? When it was revived and I saw that I was the target, I guess I felt no choice but to respond. "Felt no choice?" Please explain. Is there a gun to your head? I don’t mean to sound snarky (I apologize if I do), and I’m not picking on you personally. You’re just one of the many, many people who consistently react to long-running debates by complaining that they’re unpleasant to read – or worse, by asking for them to be shut down even while others are obviously enjoying the discussion. My questions are right on topic: Such a reaction to threads like this one serves as a perfect analogy. The response we keep hearing from the folks who express strong dislike for a certain flavor of geocache is reasonable in itself, yet many of these people either continue to hunt them – or worse, they call for them to be controlled somehow even while others are obviously enjoying them. Why? I’ve yet to be convinced that “lame” caches are difficult to detect (I’m not that smart and I have never had trouble detecting them – I don’t even use PQs) , and neither have I been convinced that the game suffers due to there mere existence. I don't have a reasonable point-by-point response to your questions...so if it makes you feel better/superior to feel that you've "won" this part of the debate, by all means feel that way...and congratulations. My pride is still intact, even sitting here anonymously behind my keyboard as opposed to in person having this discussion with you. (I'm always amazed at the courage people have hiding behind their keyboards and web nicknames that they wouldn't have in person...not necessarily referring to you in this case, KBI.) As to the Micro Spew discussion, we agree to disagree. I've been playing the game for almost 5 years and I've watched the evolution, and I believe the widespread outbreak is, and has been, bad for the game. Many others agree with me. You don't. Many others agree with you too. I can live with that. Neither of us has to be "right", you know. As I stated elsewhere in this thread and all over these forums, I sadly admit that clearly the "community" has spoken, and it wants Spew. I don't have to like it, and I will feel free to b*tch about it until the moderators ban me. You and everyone else have the option to plonk me if you don't want to keep reading about it.

Well, my thought is that (while you may be correct for some of them) it might be because THEY thought it was neat (or creative er something). Maybe comparing it to art might help. Me? I love Monet. You may think "What's the point? Why doesn't he just paint it how it really looks?". But his work is still generally considered "art" by the whole community. Mind you, I do see how you can come to your conclusion as well. Fair counterpoint. I would offer this counter to your counter: ONE or TWO lamppost or guardrail hides are probably neat or creative to the new cacher. 50, 100 or more? Not so sure about that. THAT's the issue.

I agree with that...if/when the locations are indeed worthwhile. Case in point: Back when virts were still able to be placed, local cachers in Fort Worth placed scads of them at any/all of the local historical locations (of which there are many in that town!). During a business gig there, I spent many evenings after work driving around town logging those virts, and I developed a real sense of the history of the town that way. It was GREAT. I'm not sure I would feel the same way if I had been going from shopping center parking lot to shopping center parking lot to highway guardrail to...you get the idea. That's the situation in an increasing number of metro areas. What other reason could there be for those caches but stats and convenience? When I was actively placing caches around Biloxi pre-Katrina, I tried to place my own hides (virtual or physical...and yes, physical micros!) with an eye towards the town's history, attractions, and "hidden gem" locations. The typical logs I received from searchers were a whole lot more "Thanks for bringing me to this location I never would have discovered otherwise" than "TFTC". Oh, and I also placed my caches with the intent that they actually would be FOUND. Sometimes my hides were tricky, but I never meant to impose on any cacher an extended search or high muggle discovery probability. That's another thing that seems to have changed recently.

OK, while I still believe "the numbers" is the primary reason for Micro Spew, here's another possible reason: As the game has become more mainstream, there's the convenience factor. We were having a discussion about the urban micro explosion a while back at a Twin Cities caching get-together I attended. Someone said, "Well, I don't want to have to drive more than 5 miles for a cache when there are still places where they could be hidden closer by." I nearly fainted. Before the urban micro explosion, it was not uncommon for cachers to clear out their own radius and then have to drive 10, 20, 50, or more miles to find their next nearest caches. And we did it WILLINGLY...it was an opportunity to explore "uncharted territory" that was still within a relatively close distance. Times have changed...cachers want their caches and they want them as convenient as possible. Some folks have cited the rising cost of gasoline in the past few years, but I say that's bunk...cachers are generally an upper-middle-class or higher lot, and don't tell me that driving from cache to cache to cache (to cache to cache to cache....) around town doesn't use up as much gas as driving out into the country.

I've never understood this. If the thread bothers you so much why do you still read it and reply to it? I've never understood it either. The folks who always post the beating-a-dead-horse image or call for a lock as a thread begins to run long are pretty much the same folks who jump right back in to the very same debate as soon as it appears in the next thread. The discussion bothers you. Fine. You have a right to your opinion, but let's look at this logically: Either you're still reading the thread, or you're not. If you don't like seeing the issue discussed anymore, then why continue to read the thread? If you're NOT reading the thread, does it bother you that others are continuing to discuss the issue in a thread you're NOT reading? If so, does that give you any legitimate say as to whether the thread you're NOT reading should be shut down? Read my post directly above yours. Unlike most people around here, I'm not sitting here behind my keyboard puffing more righteous indignation anonymously than I would if the discussion were in person. I gave that post its proper due and respect.

I've never understood this. If the thread bothers you so much why do you still read it and reply to it? Instead of begging MM to lock it, why not just NOT click on the link? A lot of other people seem to be having fun with it. This seems to also be the mentality of a lot of cachers in this thread. You've posted 25 times to this thread, but for some reason now that you're tired of it you want it to stop - regardless of the fact that others enjoy posting to it. Cachers in this thread have admitted that they used to enjoy micros that they now consider "lame", but now that they no longer like them they're calling for people to stop hiding them. "Newbies shouldn't hide micros in parking lots" "Your first hide was a parking lot micro" "Yeah well, that was 4 years ago and I was new" I've gotta give you props for that post. Seriously, no sarcasm. This thread is a lot like how I used to cache...I used to chase after everything, and then I got bored when it became clear it would have to be on Micro Spew if I wanted to continue to crank stats. I'm similarly tired of this thread...and yet I still check in on it. (Happily, all I hear is a faint buzzing sound when it comes to the 2 posters I've plonked.) I will say one thing, though: I was THRILLED when this page finally dropped to page 2 a few days ago, before the horse was brought back to life for further beatings. When it was revived and I saw that I was the target, I guess I felt no choice but to respond.

I agree...I've already sent MM a request to finally shut this thread down...

I actually heard Dan Akroyd's voice when I read that.... Just 10 minutes ago I was explaining to my daughter how The Coneheads (a movie) actually started as an SNL skit. I might be mistaken, but hasn't Jane left us? Nope: http://www.deadoraliveinfo.com/dead.nsf/cn...-nf/Curtin+Jane

Not to mention that he once gave himself as a FTF prize! Now that's innovation! Only downside would be that I bet his hints would be long and useless. Talk about camo! Tsk, tsk...no buried caches allowed!

Did you have a sample cache in mind or is this a warning for a problem that you have never seen? It's easy to invent a warning and claim it's for everyones safety. As for Boston, the city should have applied the common sence. There were 10 cities involved and only one freaked out and created a problem. Speaking for myself (as opposed to the OP), I *have* run across more than one of the "fake electrical box" cache variety (I'd post you a link but they were both several years ago and I can't recall which of my finds they were), and I must admit, I found them disturbing for the reason the OP and I have posted..."what if I were a kid who didn't know any better while sniffing around and touching these electrical runs alongside this building?" I haven't run across any of the "hole drilled in the support beam" variety, but I *have* seen holes drilled in other benign pieces of wood structures to accommodate a match safe or 35mm can...so it's not a large leap to imagine a support beam drill-hole.

Done.

Resorting to name calling huh?? thats mature...again...if you hate Micros so much,,,why do you do them? and why do you place micro caches? <edited out upon request> Once again, TWU, you da man...thanks for the backup. Having said that: For one thing, I don't think he's a sock puppet based on HIS logs...he just looks like a newcomer based there in BC, who discovered these discussions and has jumped in a little too aggressively without being prepared for the repercussions of HIS words by other readers. That's why he only elicited, basically, a "whatever" response from me (along with the plonkage, of course ). As for the e-stalking of my logs, well, I suppose we're all susceptible to that by posting our experiences and travels in this game publicly like this. Folks are free to intepret them however they want, if they feel the need to spend that much time examining them.

You'll pardon my sense of irony TG, since you know we're totally on the same side of this debate: My head is starting to hurt from banging it against the wall making this same argument around here over and over and over again. Also ironically, it hurts EVEN THOUGH I'm not reading posts from the 2 users I've plonked. That's why I've indicated that I think it's time to close this thread...it's a lost cause.

Just to be clear, I personally don't think about the numbers as part of this debate. I only use my numbers to count my memories. I see the issue more like "What should a cache be?". And on that point, I'm one of those "Do it your way." people myself, but I can see both sides of this. Hence the "Destroy one good thing to save another" comment. Okay, my second sentence is a bit cheesy, but I think it's still on point. Re your counterpoint that you don't think numbers are part of the debate: Fair enough, and I do see your point (really). My point is that I believe that the Micro Spew issue came about over the past several years as a direct result of the quest for numbers (i.e., "how can we get as many caches out there as quickly and as cheaply as possible?"). We agree to disagree on that part of it.

I definitely agree with the edit to this thread's subtitle (anyone else notice it?). It's time for this thread to be closed.

It's OK, C-R. He made me feel so honored that I had no choice but to plonk him.