drat19
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Posts posted by drat19
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I don't venture into the Forums much anymore, but as older-timers here know I've been railing against Spewed Micros (not ALL micros, just the uninspired Spew ) for years. (The "caching kindred spirits of mine" PA cachers holding the Burning Micro event even give me a shout-out on the cache page when they hold this event every year...how flattering to be so famous/infamous!
).Obviously I gave up "the good fight" against Micro Spew due to it being unwinnable against The Geocaching Mass Market that has also obviously spoken and has responded with supply in response to demand, so let's just sum it all up:
Hiders of Spewed Micros , like all hiders of all qualities of caches, like to feel as if they are "giving back" to the caching community, which is all good. However, by spewing tens (or more) Spewed Micros , they are able to feel they've "given back" with a minimum of effort and cost. And as an added bonus, they get additional ego gratification with lots of "Found It" Emails peppering their Inboxes, because after all, a large population of cachers LOVES to crank their numbers on these generally-easy grabs. ("Cool! Another finder Email! I gave back to the game and people must love me!")
Finders of Spewed Micros get the ego gratification of watching their stat numbers increase quickly, and depending on where they live, additional ego grat if honored in local on-line Forums or Geo-events. In fact, in my home state of MS, we take our "Milestones" very seriously...our local organization has an informal process in place to ensure that all those who reach these milestones are properly honored at local Events. The difference in MS, though (and one of the advantages of being a small state), is that through unabashed and unashamed peer pressure, we're able to keep Micro Spew to a minimum in most of our areas, meaning that those who do the majority of their caching in MS and reach those milestones have generally "earned" their recognition through a majority of hunts of quality caches in quality locations worth visiting. We have few enough 1K- and 2K-find cachers based in MS that it still does matter, getting-recognized-for-your-stats-wise. And when we get newer cachers who start placing Spew , it doesn't take long for them to get a reputation for it and public or private bashing in the local community ("We have a new cacher in the Jackson (or Starkville or Oxford or Coast) area who's dropping micros everywhere, so don't expect much if you hunt for one of that hider's caches"). Some don't get the message, but most do, and overall quality remains relatively high state-wide.
As I stated above, I gave up "the good fight"...now I just accept it for what it is, and recently have been trying to find ways to enjoy the game again. I am gratified to see, though, that years after I was one of the few voices railing against this trend, more recently those who share my viewpoint are raising their voices more forcefully now, and so maybe there is hope (I have personally experienced this to be the case in my "second" home in Twin Cities, MN...I've done a lot of caching there recently and have found more caches/hides/hikes of quality than not).
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There are purists who still want "in-the-woods-hikes-climbs-etc. caches" to be the rule rather than the exception (this is fine!). These friends have become extremists simply by not moving because the game has gravitated heavily to micro P&G caches . . . initially this move was okay as it satisfied a need in growing the population of players and hides. But (IMO), it has gone too far in that direction. I used to find these purists to be a bore but I am starting to wish they had had more impact several years ago, before it got so crazy (can't believe I am sayng this)
.I tried, I really did.
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This was exactly the one I was thinking of when I opened this thread, and I was both glad and disappointed to find that someone else also posted it before I did. Definitely my favorite handle that I've seen around here.I always liked Lemon Fresh Dog. I have no idea what it means but it has a very good ring to it.
The only reference I can think of for it was that Pledge furniture polish used to advertise itself as being "Lemon Fresh"...if that's the reference he/she used as well, it's just totally silly - and that's what makes it great.
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It has happened to me too...what's the fix???
Appears to be fixed now...thanks.
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It has happened to me too...what's the fix???
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I remember when we second generation cachers were moving over 100 finds. 100 meant we had bout thousands of miles on our rigs and hiked. We had all done the same caches and knew the tough ones and the easy ones. Hell we'd done them all. Then the third and fourth generations came in and the numbers were easy. They would try to compare their 100 to our 100. it wasn't the same. 100 on Navicache and that's something. 500 on GC.com...yawn.
Still numbes do mean something. 100 means you will stick around. While you may never be a great cacher at 20,000 caches, you probably deserve a little respect. At some point numbers do mean you have seen most hide types, and won't make rookie mistakes...which you forget about until you go out wiht a novice with no numbers at all.
Numbers led to some fun. Back when we had stats I'd get a kick out of going to my friends home town, finding all the caches and planting one so that I'd be the top cacher for his town. Until he took a look at the stats and get off his duff and go caching himself. Then he would sneak out into my town and do the same. Numbers and Status lead to all kinds of variations of geocaching that can help keep it interesting for us all.
Someone said, "anyone can find a lampost" yeah, but when that was a new hide it was brillian, brutal, and quit the revelation that the skirt lifted.
At the end of the day, numbers are numbers. They are helpful within their limits. Constrained as to how much fun they can add to geocaching (no real stats thus not allowing caching games and other things) but exist none the less.
The last thing I know about numbers is the catch prhase "It's not about the numbers". Those who believe it, don't say it. Those who say it resent them because they care. Dismissing numbers to make yourself feel better about your numbers is a waste of time.
The last number I cared about was beating a cacher I knew was going to pass me up to 1000. I did. I was happy. They passed me up. They were happy. Win Win.
Numbers are a tool, a motivator, a way to count, a place to put your logs. Ignore them and they don't matter, use them and they help. They are nothing more than a tool.
As a fellow 2G cacher, I agree with every word of your post, RK (esp. the part about going to someone else's town and out-stat'ing the locals back in the day...I did that over a 2-week period my first business trip to Minneapolis back in '03...all the locals wanted to know who that guy was from Mississippi who was slamming through all their caches and running up numbers (I bagged 61 caches over a 2-week period and that was considered PROLIFIC!)) (oh, and also about how 100 finds back in the day meant 1000s of miles on our rigs - too true!).
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I'd like to nominate those guys who hid the first generation of caches in our respective areas, sadly too many of them have dropped out of caching.
I'll definitely second this one! Ah, the good ol' days of having to drive more than quite a few miles between hides, and the knowledge that they would almost always be worth the drive because the first gen folks only hid caches in places "worth visiting".
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Did someone mention creeping around Target's dumpsters? I must have missed that post.
I thought I was in the current LPM thread.
Speaking only for myself (but quite possibly interpreting TG's post), in my mind the classification of "LPCs" also "represents" other caches of similar "quality", to include random guardrails, tossed into bushes, and placed under/on store dumpsters. Basically, the "quick/easy/cheap/just for stats" classification of caches.
FWIW....
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Before we had LPMs to complain about, we were complaining about gladware wrapped in soggy black plastic bags, hidden in ditches.
Seriously.
Very true! The difference is that it didn't take long for that type of hide to eventually "phase out". Not so the LPC and its equivalents (see my previous post above re equivalents).
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I know I'm going to regret wading back into one of these discussions after staying the heck out of the forums for so long, mostly because of these discussions, but here's my $.02:
(1) Any cacher's first LPC find: "Cool! I never thought about finding a cache in one of these! How clever!" (I readily admit that this was my reaction to my first LPC find. I would also point out that I logged DNFs on my first 3 LPC hunts before I finally figured out that one of those skirts could actually be lifted. Of course, this was back in '02 before this type of hide became so widespread...there really was a "creativity" to it back then.)
(2) Any cacher's first LPC hide: "Cool! I can hide one of these cheaply and easily and make a contribution to my caching community!"
(3) Same cacher placing several or many more LPC hides: "Cool! It cost me next to nothing to put these caches out, and people must like 'em because I get so many "Found it" Emails! I'll drive around and put out more!"
(4) Multiple cachers with the same mindset as (3) above: Results in pages and pages (and pages and pages) of these types of caches, giving newcomers to the game the impression that this type of hide is the "norm".
(5) Local cachers logging scads of LPC finds: "Cool! Look at how many quick and easy stats we're ringing up! If we keep running up our numbers, maybe we, too, can be deified in our regional caching forums, or at the next event!"
Things to know: I deem guardrail caches to be equivalent to LPCs in terms of their effects on the caching community at large...LPCs may "represent" the issue, but to me guardrail caches are no different. Nor are micros tossed into "any ol' bush".
I'm not going to argue what's wrong with LPC/guardrail hides and their effect on our game at large...my opinions on that are well documented. I'm just going to make this point: It's not that these types of hides EXIST; it's their PREVALENCE. And why are they so prevalent? These words: Cheap. Easy. Quick. Stats. Recognition/ego grat IN SOME CIRCLES for said stats.
And sadly, I agree with the majority now: If that's how folks want to play, who am I to stop them? (Longtime posters here know that was not always my position on this. I have since recognized that trying to change the game or its players is a losing battle...this is the price we all have paid for evolving from an "underground" game to a "mass market" game - a lowering of overall standards. And it's why I seldom play anymore.)
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Yes, that WILL be important (I was even able to translate it without Babel Fish!).Sigh, all I remember is "Je ne comprend pas"! (did I spell that right?)
I *am* planning to brush up on my basic travel-related French phrases before the trip, though!
You can use Babel Fish to translate for you. It's not perfect, but should get the idea across.
Good luck and good fortune on your trip. The Laurentians are beautiful.
P.S. One most important phrase you will be using: "Où est le prochain arrêt de repos, svp ?"
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Sigh, all I remember is "Je ne comprend pas"! (did I spell that right?)
I *am* planning to brush up on my basic travel-related French phrases before the trip, though!
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Sounds like a local problem. I think they go in cycles, we used to have several near here, but I have not found one in a lightpole in Mid-Tennessee in quite some time. It seems like they come into favor for a little while and then they become the object of scorn and derision and then they fade away, or at least that is what seems to have happened here.
Heh! So it looks like I was a few years ahead of my time when I complained about the preponderance of them there in your area 4 or so years ago! Maybe I'll have to come on back and give Nashville a fresh chance.
(This is a totally non-sarcastic post, Brad.)
It should be noted that LPMs still exist in the area. Brad has no doubt largely cleared the area so is likely pretty much only going after recent hides, where I still am looking for caches that have been in place for a few years. Therefore, he doesn't come across them often while I find them with some frequency.
Oh, I'm sure they do (still exist there), which is a main reason I seldom cache anymore. Too much crap/chaff everywhere, not enough wheat.
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A buddy and I are looking at a trip to Quebec in September that would include a day or two in the Laurentians, where we would like to do a half-day or so "signature hike" (which does or does not have to include picking up a cache or two along the way...so Nat'l Parks are part of our options). Relative GC terrain rating of a max of 3.5 or 4, on marked trails, is what we like to do on trips like this.
I'm already researching this using typical travel planning tools, but of course I'm thinking that who would know quality hiking options better than my fellow Geocachers? I went over to the Geocaching Quebec org web site, but darn it it's all in French (go figure!). (Case in point: On our trip to the Maritimes back in '04, the Maritimes cachers on their org web site offered plenty of great suggestions, and in fact the off-the-beaten-path hike we were recommended to do in PEI was one of the real highlights of our trip!).
So, I'm soliciting similar recommendations for the Laurentians. Thanks.
Update:
Right now our leading candidate is a hike up the trails of Mont Tremblant. Looks like we can hike up the mountain and then ride the gondola back down...very similar to how we did Sulphur Mountain in Banff back in '03 (which also had a virt cache back then...bonus!).
We're also looking at a day's walking tour of Montreal as part of the trip...looking for good cache-along-the-way recommendations as well as just general tips, of course. I'll find all the "must see" sites, but always up for off-the-beaten-path ideas (and of course I'll search cache listings to help with that!).
Continued thanks, friends.
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Sounds like a local problem. I think they go in cycles, we used to have several near here, but I have not found one in a lightpole in Mid-Tennessee in quite some time. It seems like they come into favor for a little while and then they become the object of scorn and derision and then they fade away, or at least that is what seems to have happened here.
Heh! So it looks like I was a few years ahead of my time when I complained about the preponderance of them there in your area 4 or so years ago! Maybe I'll have to come on back and give Nashville a fresh chance.
(This is a totally non-sarcastic post, Brad.)
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A buddy and I are looking at a trip to Quebec in September that would include a day or two in the Laurentians, where we would like to do a half-day or so "signature hike" (which does or does not have to include picking up a cache or two along the way...so Nat'l Parks are part of our options). Relative GC terrain rating of a max of 3.5 or 4, on marked trails, is what we like to do on trips like this.
I'm already researching this using typical travel planning tools, but of course I'm thinking that who would know quality hiking options better than my fellow Geocachers? I went over to the Geocaching Quebec org web site, but darn it it's all in French (go figure!). (Case in point: On our trip to the Maritimes back in '04, the Maritimes cachers on their org web site offered plenty of great suggestions, and in fact the off-the-beaten-path hike we were recommended to do in PEI was one of the real highlights of our trip!).
So, I'm soliciting similar recommendations for the Laurentians. Thanks.
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I think the articles that Kit Fox pasted in above in this thread are excellent.
Here's another one that I wrote that you might also find helpful: Click me
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Stats.
Dan's Stats
Yes, accessible stats provided either by GC.Com or some third party would be a welcome addition. I've not seen any references to stat programs that work with Mac OSX
How many here even know of Dan's great stats? Not just smilies but all stats sliced and diced any way you'd like them. For me a big part of Geocaching died when Dan's Stats went away.
+1! I'm fairly confident that a good number of the oldtimers in Mississippi gradually faded away from the game because the "friendly in-state competition" that we had back then was lost when Dan's Stats went away. (And those stats did NOT diminish our state's overall cache quality back then, by the way!)
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I'll echo and amplify Monkeybrad's comments as a longtime Mississippi-based cacher (for which state he also served as reviewer for the majority of the past 5 years)...thanks for the great service, Joe.
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I remember that from my years in NW Wisconsin. Everything got really staticy and my skin got so dry it always itched. When I parked my car at work, it felt like I was parking on an ice skating rink. Actually I was!I was just refering to egami about being in Iowa and I from Minnesota and had posted a similar statement about when/how I check logs and why...sorry just my dry (very dry) sense of humor...
Well, it *is* very dry up here in MN this time of year!
Heh, tell me about it! Try being from where I'm from (<---) and spending workweeks here in MN and then weekends at home in the opposite climate!
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I was just refering to egami about being in Iowa and I from Minnesota and had posted a similar statement about when/how I check logs and why...sorry just my dry (very dry) sense of humor...
Well, it *is* very dry up here in MN this time of year!
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On Thanksgiving weekend, two KC cachers came up to Des Moines, Iowa and "found" 110 caches on Friday and Saturday. However, most (about 80%) of the logs did not contain their signatures. All the "finds" were checked, and I am proud to say all active Des Moines deleted the finds that were bogus. Most cachers in this area take it pretty seriously.
So, to the original post, the cachers of Central Iowa are upholding the integrity of their hides.
The two KC thought they could pull a fast one and WE called them on it.
Did they sign the logs, at all, or did they not even find the caches?
(I know, how dare I look for the grey?)
Much as I hate to admit it (ever!), I was also thinking the same thing as sbell on this matter. Can you imagine the reaction of a group of Numbers Ho's who made a special trip to a region to (falsely, apparently) run up numbers, only to lose 80% of them after the fact?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
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Perhaps many people hide and find these because they like to hide and find them, just like they keep saying; plus... Get rid of the stats and you not only solve the bogus logging problem, but you also solve Micro Spew - after all, what other incentive would cachers have to both hide and find so much UTTER CRAP (not ALL micros, just the Spew )? ...The stats are never going to go away. Ever. That's not 'the problem' and it wouldn't solve 'the problem'.
I know the stats are never going to go away, despite the above points. Apparently, neither is "the problem". That's why I, for the most part, have (gone away). The mass market has spoken, and it's marketing to someone other than me.
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Yup, there you have it!
Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!
Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.
No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.
I certainly wouldn't miss them.
Ed, as one of the Deep Dixie region's original Numbers Ho's (since reformed!), I never thought I'd say this to you re your above-quoted post, but: I AGREE! Get rid of the stats and you not only solve the bogus logging problem, but you also solve Micro Spew - after all, what other incentive would cachers have to both hide and find so much UTTER CRAP (not ALL micros, just the Spew )? And you also stop the practice of deifying high-number cachers, and treat everyone equally, as regards "how people are perceived at events"...maybe folks would still get recognized for their longevity or for their reputations as great hiders or creative log-writers, but not just for their stats.
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Why MICROS are better.
in General geocaching topics
Posted
Exactly! Micro Spew is all about the "+1", and as far as I'm concerned anyone who says differently is denying the truth about them. (Again, NOT ALL MICROS, just the flooding of areas with uninspiring ones.)
The very first cache I found back in '02 was a micro, and it did not deter me from changing my life (at the time) by taking up this game. Fortunately, that was pretty much the ONLY micro hidden in my area at the time...the next TENS of caches I found were Regulars, all in cool locations I never knew about before, where I could search pretty much undetected. And I couldn't stop talking to pretty much everyone I knew about what a great new sport/game/hobby I had discovered.
I'm not sure I would have had the same reaction if the first TENS of caches I had found were PNG micros.