gollie

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have the Vista Hcx and like it. The screen brightness is really good in daylight, quick map redraw when scrolling around, memory card expansion, etc. But you know all that since it sounds like you've studied options. On the subject of $100 maps for the Garmin, I bought the Topo set for my Vista Hcx. BUT, when I gifted my sister a garmin unit, I knew I couldn't put my registered maps on her device. Then I discovered the open source offering from miscjunk.org =Free maps. He will take donations. I don't believe in bootlegging, and my understanding is that these maps are his own creation from open sources. I don't know if he covers the area you live in, but the topo maps for Colorado are just as good as the ones I bought from Garmin as far as I can see. You can open them in MapSource, and select tiles just as you do with other mapsets.

gollie replying; Families and or teams having a way to log PM caches as a team is something I've said before that I wish Groundspeak would formalize. The distinction of having at least one family member on board as a PM seems like good form, at the very least. The cacher from Sac may be testing a 'bug' that Groundspeak should indefinitely allow and even formalize.

If I were not a PM today say since my membership ended last week, and then logged a cache today, and then the cache owner doesn't ever check his email and sees that I'm not a PM why should I feel embarrassed? The coords are on my GPS. I was at the cache. I signed the log book. I'm not a PM anymore. Why punish me? -------gollie replying: Implied policies are always a weird thing, leading to misunderstandings. So if my gym membership expired last week, I don't need to feel odd about expecting to show up and work out for free? I came through the backdoor, I know where all the machines are, I still have my combination lock on the locker... Who wants to punish? It's just funny how we make exceptions to how to behave in society when we personally have something to gain. This is all irrelevant as of today, because the moderator has said that the workaround will again be enabled. So we can all shake hands and say it was a fun discussion, anyway. Groundspeak, make this workaround a formal feature.

-------------------------------------- I agree with you Wild Thing, as I've said, I'd be embarassed to log a PM cache if I was only a basic member. It's not an earth-shaking infraction, but it's odd to have Groundspeak offer this workaround as a feature, yet not have it spelled out as a clear offering. It's only known in the background. Well-meaning, literate new PM's think it consists of one thing, and "old-hands" know otherwise, i.e, why pay for what you can just take.... I note that today, Nov 26, the site moderator has said they will fix the workaround and get it back in action. I think this should become a formal announcement on geocaching.com. I don't want to draw a line in the sand that Groundspeak doesn't care about, themselves. They should separate out what is a paid feature and announce what is available to all. As for those PM's who DID expect the PMO caches to be a completely separate experience, how will they be notified of this carte blanche availability to log their caches?

Are they 'cheated out of their fun'? They enjoyed the hunt at least, for a 'bonus' cache. Are we teaching our children to be unable to understand delayed gratification? Anyway, let them log. Have them type their own message into the one PM cache log.

Maybe a separate thread would be illuminating about "why do you place premium caches?" I think I could learn from this myself--admittedly I'm a skeptic about it. Because for me I think the contents of a cache aren't needing that much defending, Are PM's really placing that much better contents in their caches? I put cool stuff in my ordinary caches and trust I that it will be okay. But for this thread I still think that logging PM's 'for free' is the issue. (I don't think this about team or couples logging as one-- but even for that I don't think we should have to do backdoor url hack to log this way.)

Slippery slope, lets think on that. (I'm still having trouble with quotes--sorry.) --Good point, that. But does it justify hacking a solution? --Will it never morph? I wonder. The slippery slope ethics-wise is ourselves wanting something more or better, and just taking it, using a hack. We may all agree that regular cachers accompanying PM's should have the pleasure of logging such a visit to a PM cache. But I don't agree that a hidden/hacked/backdoor solution is the way to make that possible. And doesn't it follow that if thievery is really taking place due to people 'seeing the cache page' then aren't we as PM's 'breaching security' in sanctioning the concept of hacking? It's only a matter of time before viewing the PM cache info/waypoint is hacked, not just hacking the ability to log................and the value of the cache has already been advertised as being high to a thief since it is a 'Premium Cache'. A juicy target, so the motivation to hack it is there. Why encourage it, even in a little way. Let's get Jeremy to draw better lines around this. I stand by the dilemma; if we have civil methods for pursuading Jeremy to address our desires, issues, I'm for that. What will the next hacked solution be? Why make Jeremy chase his tail whacking backdoor moles that we create? Maybe a petition/feature request was made, and he refused or ignored it? I don't know if it was, I haven't read every single thread here....................but does that make hacking solutions okay?

Nylimb, Very good point about how to tell just what is a PM and what is a regular cache. I would love it if they had different color or symbol or waypoint code on the actual GPSr screen when we're out in the field--without having to manually alter my waypoint loads, that is..... sorry about quotes, having trouble getting them to work--my error. Will try here. When I go caching with a premium member, we share information before the trip. When we get to a cache, I usually don't remember whether it's a PM cache or not. I don't find that out until I try to log it, at which point it's too late to retrieve any TBs that I dropped............. I don't consider it a disservice. In fact, logging the cache benefits the cache owner and anyone who's planning to look for the cache, letting them know that it's still there, and about any problems with the cache. I don't think logging is a disservice, of course it is an essential tool for monitoring cache status in general. But this issue is about who is eligible to log what. If you are eligible to log, of course you get to play a useful part when doing said logging. When I said disservice, I meant the phantom sanctioning of 'logging as a PM' when you are not. Sanctioning (by Groundspeak/Jeremy) just leads to confusion and a lack of universal access to a clearly defined feature--it's a tacit promise not fairly fulfilled. It isn't serving you very well with it's TB hassles, etc. I'll bet that's why the URL hack no longer works. Jeremy has probably had some time to think about the complications. The workaround was dumped in his lap as a fait accompli by creative hackers; he 'blessed' it when he first heard about it, but now has to study it closer for it's problems overall. ..... the method is a bit of a hack, so maybe it could be replaced by something simpler. I wouldn't mind if the whole 'hidden only for PMs' concept went away, and we focused on other PM benefits as true features.) Anyway I feel this glitch will get improved eventually so I'm not worried.

This shows why a formal solution, not a hacked solution, needs to be reached. The solution is a 'back-door' one, thus not a mature solution. So, in the meantime, regular members would do well to not drop anything (or take) from a premium cache. It becomes clear why it is a disservice to support (or engage in) a hacked solution. It doesn't fully or fairly enhance the experience.

Why vilify revenue generation? Don't we all do things right when we actually make revenue pursuing our work? I imagine that's not purely what you meant to say, it's just that you still have some unsolved customer satisfaction issues?

Thanks for pointing that other thread out to me, it illuminates the discussion here. Guess I'm just on the side of the fence with members at that thread like Blaylock who feel somewhat as I do. Having to 'manipulate' a URL seems like a sign that a boundary is being crossed. Why not go to Jeremy instead and petition for a formal feature to sanction what I think is logical, families or teams paying a single $30.00 and logging as such. The sentiment I'm feeling these days is that many of us have issues with members of society at large playing a little loose with rules, etc.; just read the news. Don't want to go off-topic but I felt a red flag going off in my gut at the workaround, I feel that integrity starts with the tiniest grain of sand. I believe that Jeremy was not the one who created or offered the workaround, so it's not like he sanctioned it from the beginning. I imagine when he gets time he'll probably create a family/team membership more formally. Else the fact that the workaround is visible to almost anyone will lead to, or has already led to, individual advantage being taken. The following is being technical at this point, and I don't want to pursue the discussion much more on that plane, but you said: "The ability to log MOCs was never a benefit that only went to PMs." Wasn't it? Or at least wasn't it latently intended to be, if the cache info page and ability to download the .loc or gpx file was protected? Just because some owners don't mind, can we assume that we've polled all PM's who post MO caches? I applaud those who've said "the owner of the cache should be consulted before logging their cache as a non-PM." (paraphrase). It seems a little incongruous to me, when even the cache page says: "The owner has made this a member-only cache" (paraphrased) It doesn't say: "just for the finding it portion. The logging element is open to all......" Personally, I don't even intend to place any MOC's, that's not my issue, it's more the 'slippery slope' element. I'm not trying to stir trouble. My sentiment goes to my own ethic of working within some civil framework. If it's broken or has an unfair element, I support a solution that is less hacking, and more working on it with a transparent method of altering it. It's not exactly a transparent solution if it doesn't show up on Geocaching.com's 'getting started' page or similar. Confusing to good-faith newbies to have this be a back-door, over-the-forums solution. I gotta climb off what now seems to be growing into a 'high horse' on my part, fellow geocachers. Don't want to get a nosebleed, and am here to tell you I am NOT perfect, far from it; I'm not better than anyone else. Just sharing my thoughts.

I HAVE told other basic members with me on some caching forays to go ahead and sign a premium log in the field-- because they were planning to upgrade. They kept a record of those PM caches, and went back later as a PM and logged them for their count. >gollie wrote previously: [ And I'd feel odd if I were logging premium caches while appearing in my profile as a basic member? But that's just me..................

Potato Finder seems to understand there are reasons/situations where one needs to conform to different member features, but seems to be waiting for someone to say when that it is.......but I imagine we all know the boundaries. Of course logging as a team makes great sense. And to me that seems like a fair way for 2 to log under one premium membership. As Potato Finder said, "My wife and I choose to log separately, but that doesn't justify a 2nd "premium" membership, if it were enforced to the point that someone said she should have a separate premium membership, we would probably abandon her account and just log as one, or she just wouldn't log the premium caches." As food for thought, in my own business dealings I'd feel conflicted about clients using workarounds to take advantage of features that were clearly marked as being for paying members. I'm not saying that Potato Finder is doing that----maybe the issue is that Groundspeak let this workaround occur for a while. But, and I don't have any particular soft spot for, or gripes against Groundspeak, but I do sympathize with a response to disable such a workaround. I imagine that the premium fees help pay for running the site (yes I know that ads do that too) and other costs. The cool thing is that basic membership is free. And if there is no palpable advantage to the 2 kinds of membership it is hard to encourage new premium members. Actually, I think logging separately does justify separate memberships. And I'd feel odd if I were logging premium caches while appearing in my profile as a basic member? But that's just me..................

GC.com needs to incorporate this for all users, all browsers. This would be the fix I'm interested in, a link on every page with a waypoint search box.

True, this page has the 'GC' box. Thanks Motorcycle Mama, I'm sorry I formulated my wish so poorly, should have thought more before posting the question. (snowing here, no motor ride today, btw.) Once you do navigate away from that page, there are many you arrive at that lack such a box. (such as actual cache pages -not log pages- where you are viewing someone's cache, the 'My Account' page, the page showing "All Geocaches" generated in a search, the 'Getting Started' page, etc. I often don't start on the Home page, and I and others probably find ourselves working other views on GC.com more than this one. I've saved the all-purpose 'Hide & Seek' page as my 'go-to' page in my browser's favorites. Every time I visit GC.com, this is the page I have open as it is the beginning of a variety of actions I might want to pursue. Although if there was a 'GCXXXX' link on every page on GC.com I'd prefer to go to the 'My Account' page by default. Still, as it is now, no matter where I start, if I end up at a live 'View Cache' page, I need to navigate in two steps from that page in order to enter a GCXXXX number again. As I mentioned to WRASTRO here, I do quite often visit the actual cache page, instead of just the preview page in the process of logging and reviewing my logs. And that's a page that lacks a direct link. But this thread has suggested some helpful workarounds that I plan to try.

Sorry WRASTRO, you are right in the main. Yet several pages one navigates to are devoid of a single jump to entering another 'GC' number. For example, I often visit the actual cache page before going on to log my next cache, just want to see how it looks on the 'live' page, not just the preview. This means I have to do an extra step to get back to logging more finds. But I'm going to try Prime Suspect's 'Add Waypoint Finder', as well as Cache O'Plenty's desktop shortcut.

Thanks, This is actually what I really meant I would like. I should have formulated my wish list better. gollie

Thanks, Cache O'Plenty---this is a nice idea. gollie

I would find it very useful if "Find by Waypoint" was at the TOP of the Hide & Seek page. When I need to log a cache, if I haven't done a field note, I must go to Hide & Seek first. There, I scroll down a long (long) way to get to "Find by Waypoint" . Here I enter the GCXXXX number and then I can go to the cache page and log a find. General searches using zip code, etc, are an activity that probably visit this page at a lower rate than logging-purpose visits. And this page isn't very useful for logging. EVEN BETTER, is there a way to make it possible to quickly click on a "Log a Find" button on the home page? It would be nice to be able jump right to this activity. And, once there, make it so that a log you've just finished has a prompt to "VISIT NEXT CACHE PAGE, GC__________" This is done for trackables. Am I missing something, can we not do this for actual caches?

I'm a PM, but I don't intend to ever restrict any of my caches to just Premium Members. It bugs me that my companions on some hunts have to 'sit out' a cache I have on my GPSr. Still, I like the PQ and InstaNotify features of being a premium member. Here's a silly question, but as for logging premium caches, why not have person who wants to do this, just become a member? Can a gift membership be given?

Here is something I just found, it does give you coords, but from a separate source, in separate SMS message: It's a free text message utility called Coord.info from 'textmarks', it's in cooperation with Groundspeak apparantly: (This is mentioned elsewhere on the forums.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Using TextMarks for the first time: Send an SMS message, "GEOC" to 41411. The response should give you a device identifier and pin to link to your Geocaching.com account. Visit Geocaching.com and create an account (if you don't have one), Visit your "my account" page and click on the "Access My Field Notes" link (on the right-hand side of the page). Click on "Link Trimble's Geocache Navigator to your account." This is a general purpose link that works with SMS. [so you don't need to have Trimble Navigator] Enter in the device identifier from the SMS message and the pin provided to you to link to your account. That's it! Any future SMS messages sent to 41411 will work with your Groundspeak account on Geocaching.com" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can send 4 kinds of SMS messages to the server: With those you can receive 2 kinds of info: basic cache info, and separately, hints, and you can make entries into 'Field Notes' two kinds of logs: found, and DNF. This is handy when you later get onto the site; you'll have info noted in the field, that you can now use to compose actual cache log entries. Helps in remembering details we always forget. See http://coord.info/textmark.aspx for how to do the various SMS requests/logs. To better answer kd4ocg's question, Say you get your 'InstaNotify' from G'speak on your Pocket PC. (a Premium Member feature.) Note the GCXXXX cache code number. Now, send an SMS to 41411 using your phone, with the unique text message of "GEOC" (space) "?GCXXXX" Use a question mark, followed by the pertinent cache code number, omit quotations. The question mark requests basic info. You will get an SMS back with the type of cache , micro, etc, and the coords. (you first need to have followed the instr. above to identify your phone device, a one-time operation). At this point if you are trying for an FTF you manually enter the coords in your GPSr and run off to the hunt. I just set this up, and was able to get the coords for newly published hides that I knew about from Groundspeak's InstaNotify messages that I have forwarded to my phone. Have yet to log anything with it. I only have Traditional caches selected for notification, so I don't get sent on a fool's errand for puzzle caches or the like. As for safety issues where some have said it's best to read the full cache page, I always use care and common sense regarding terrain, property rights, etc. It's not my intent to use this feature prior to all my caching forays, only on those times when an imminent FTF seems possible. I do enjoy reading the cache pages for their own merits, and for the care put into them by cache owners. Otherwise I look forward to trying the Field Notes utility to help my addled brain remember what I found, what I left, etc. Hope this is helpful. gollie

Testing in order to get owner ID#