Traditional Bill

There are quite a few threads about this issue in these very forums if you search the term "throwdown". Most cachers have varying opinions on this and most of the time it's relative to the situation, however as a whole, throwdowns are widely looked down upon.

This. Unfortunately, many cachers complain when they see a challenge publish that they don't or will have a hard time qualifying for. I feel the same as you do. It's a shame though that we can't all see it that way.

A.....B.....C.... ;-) As I was reading this thread, I was wondering when I would see a frinklabs post. I knew it! PS - No harm, no foul. Just messin' with ya.

I own a few earthcaches and one of them is found regularly as it's located very close to a '00 cache. Every cacher handles their logs differently. Some wait to send the info and log right away, some send info right away and log later and some do both at the same time. I only respond to those that haven't sent info, sent wrong info, or sent exceptional info (those are usually followed with a "great job" type of response). All others, I don't respond as I don't believe it's necessary. So if you won't get a response, why bother? Well, first off, some CO's will delete your log if you don't send the info in a reasonable amount of time (I know I do,at least). Secondly, the CO brought you to that area for some specific reasons and whether they respond or not, wouldn't you want to learn about those reasons by performing the logging tasks? Regardless of the CO, it will almost always end up being more fun by doing any virtual or earthcache as it was intended.

I'd like to note that if nobody placed geocaches in parking lots there wouldn't be any debate over "No Trespassing" signs. ;-)

I did a Wherigo recently that was almost exactly like this. It brought us along the escape route of John Wilkes Boothe.... From DC to Southern Maryland to Southern Virginia. The questions were simple and the cartridge was extremely easy. That cache was rated 3/1.5 and I found that to be pretty accurate. The terrain rating should generally reflect the terrain of the actual hide, the way I see it. At least for wherigos, that is. If you can roll a wheel chair to the final, regardless of how many miles you have to drive, that's still a 1T to me. Either way though, I remember doing some of your wherigos the last time I was in Indy and they were all rated pretty accurately, in my opinion. They were definitely some of the more memorable caches of that trip.

I've done plenty of cool earthcaches based on areas with many fossils. These tend to be amongst my most favorite earthcaches. This subject is absolutely an acceptable topic for an earthcache.

Why do puzzles haters always use this invlaid premis as an argument? There is not an either/or relationship between caching and solving puzzles. People choose what to do with their free time...some even solve puzzles rather than watch tv! Some people do crosswords and word searches in the morning paper but are generally not called out for not getting outdoors... I definitely share MKFmly's opinion on this as this is something I hear over and over again both in the forums and at local events.

10 miles = 89 ? Caches (found or own 85.76%) 25 miles = 546 ? Caches (found or own 51.83%) 1000 ? Caches = 45 miles In my opinion, there are never enough ? caches. For some, going to the posted coordinates and finding a cache is everything you need. For me, that got old quickly. While I do enjoy the traditional find here and there, I like to have something added to that experience. Everybody is into different aspects of the hobby, though. Looking at my stats, that something extra generally comes with puzzles as they encompass a little bit more than 22% of 4500+ finds whereas traditional caches make up 56ish% of my finds. I'm sure I'd have more of those 546 within 25 miles if I spent more time finding caches than solving puzzles :-D I will say though that at least 100 of those puzzles within 25 miles are a geo art powertrail which I will likely never bother with.

I love it

This is a very really problem. I am constantly running into people who feel that they're "owed" a find log because they simply visited GZ. People in our local community are almost looked down upon for posting NA or deleting bogus logs, like we're the bad guy because we're ruining people's fun. Well, they're ruining my fun by sand bagging my cache.

Much like challenge stars would take away the fun for (some) challenge cache owners. To some, the whole point of finding the cache is completing the challenge first. See my point? Anyway, I think The Leprechauns has a pretty good take on the whole thing. If challenges, as they are, were to be devalued by making them available to everybody, then so should every Mystery Cache.

No, I don't see it as problematic. I see it as pointless. Unless you're tagging along with a friend, why bother hunting a challenge cache if you don't yet qualify, let alone have no intention of qualifying? If that's the case, the ignore system that's in place works just fine. No, this is not necessary. The difficulty rating system that's in place works just fine. At least for me it does, since I normally rate the difficulty of my challenge caches taking the challenge and the hide into the account and the terrain rating as that of the actual cache. Given the addition of "challenge" in the title coupled with project gc and multiple bookmark lists, folks seem to have no problem finding my challenge listings. I do, however, believe that there should be some other distinguishing feature such as an attribute. No, I'm not concerned with favorite points. People use their favorite points for multiple different reasons at times and I don't always necessarily base the quality of a cache off of them. For me, the challenge is a part of the entire cache experience. I like to use the actual cache as a goal to work towards while completing a challenge. Especially for the more difficult challenges..... That cache find is the prize at the end of the road. If everybody was able to just go straight to the prize instead of doing what it takes to obtain it, then where's the purpose? An additional inclusion into a system of statistics that already works well? I just don't see the need for it.

Am I the only one that thinks of the Grinch when they see that little red-hatted green thing? This is a good idea. In the context of Challenge Stars, maybe their quantity could be assessed and set by the reviewer at publication, rather than the CO. Existing cache difficulty and terrain are only truly known by someone who has been to GZ and seen the container in context, but the degree of difficulty of a challenge can be determined by reading its requirements in the listing. It's a hideous idea and not something that should be foisted on reviewers. They are there to publish the listings, not judge the quality. How about an automated system, where the parameters for the challenge qualifications are SQL'd if possible, and then queried against all user finds, to see how many people qualify? The less qualifiers, the more Stars. Just thinking out loud. Man, you are really pushing for this challenge stars idea of yours.

as any responsible cache owner, you should verify the physical log after each and every online log. also, verify the time of day stated. it will also be a good idea to make sure that the entire cacher name is legible and on the line with the date and time. I use a game camera to verify the cachers identity when compared to known images. DNA and fingerprint analysis often proves too costly in most cases, unless it's a double platinum 5/5. I just found a double Platinum 5/5 with 4 challenge stars hidden by a freakin Platinum member the other day.... No DNA or fingerprint verification, but the CO was at GZ when I got there to verify my log. Good thing because I had a container ready to go so I could replace the final just in case.

My kind of person!!!! Lets start an Anti-Throwdown movement!!!! You can accomplish that by tossing it as high in the air as possible. What goes up must come down. If you launch it straight up in the air it won't go as high as if you tossed it at a 45 degree angle away from GZ. I suppose we can call that a "throwup", hmm? No. Technically it's just an anti throwdown movement. Sounds like a fun movement. I'll bring my slingshot.

My kind of person!!!! Lets start an Anti-Throwdown movement!!!! You can accomplish that by tossing it as high in the air as possible. What goes up must come down. If you launch it straight up in the air it won't go as high as if you tossed it at a 45 degree angle away from GZ. I suppose we can call that a "throwup", hmm?

putting a bison inside a full jar of Vaseline a half mile from the parking, without telling you in the cache page, is just asking for trouble with the cache. If I found something like that, it would take all I had not to toss the whole thing, jar and all down the steep cliff. I sure as heck wouldn't feel I owed the CO if part of the cache did what he should have expected, and slipped out of my greasy hands. OK, I'll bite. Why in God's name would someone hide a bison tube in a jar of Vaseline? I had an idea for a cache where Id place a bison tube in hot wax and let it solidify. The finder would then have to melt the wax to sign the log but most would probably just break it so I knew it wouldn't work. Having said that, a bison tube in a jar of vasoline? I like it. Hey now, I like the vasoline idea! Ya gotta do it right though, that is key. My "bison in a jar of vasoline" hide is a multi. The first stage has coordinates for the final and a box of disposable gloves which I have yet to replace (it doesn't get much traffic). The finals a bushwhack, but hey at least I give you the necessary tool to retrieve the cache. I still get a kick when I go to check on it and the log is dry as a bone.

There's a difference between a CO trying to actively maintain their listing and a CO actively letting people abuse the logs. At least in that situation, there's an active cam and the cache owner has provided coordinates to it one way or another. I feel like in that situation it's a legitimate way to log the cache and it should be kept active as the owner is technically maintaining the listing

I dislike this idea almost as much as I dislike somebody signing the log of a challenge cache before they qualify. My challenge hides are not "uninspired" and are usually in great areas where there are no guard rails or lamp posts to be seen. I often swag my more difficult challenge caches REALLY WELL with high quality and brand new items and a valuable FTF prize. I obviously tailor my challenge caches to cater to the challenge theme and for those who have completed the challenge. If I wanted cachers to find these caches like a traditional cache, then I would've made them traditional caches. As far as I can see, the system isn't broken so don't fix it.

Even if the person leaving the throwdown intends it as a gift, it's not a gift if the cache owner doesn't accept the gift (and the responsibilities of such a gift). And while some who leave throwdowns certainly intend for them to be gifts, it's not at all clear that everyone has such intents. One could leave an ammo can as a throwdown with the intention of reclaiming it at some future date. They might even list that ammo can on an alternative geocaching site. On one of my caches an ammo can was left as a " replacement cache "......the original was just 4 feet away. I may still have that can. Now that's a straight up gift! I guess some good can come from throwdowns. Seriously though, if a cacher leaves the throwdown for the CO without permission, they're basically littering. The CO can complain that it's not their responsibility all they want, that doesn't mean the cacher that left the geo litter will go pick it up. If the CO doesn't want a throwdown, they should remove it. Yes, it sucks that this becomes the CO's responsibility, but isn't that one of the reasons why throwdowns are a PITA?

All I ask is you do not freaking tell JPreto about this. As a matter of fact, they should add that to the bottom of the Groundspeak Help page article. +1 :-D

You say that one stage is even near some slides and playground equipment. I spoke about your experience in an earlier post and this is where it comes into play. Imagine you are a mother (or father, respectively) with a small child playing on that equipment. How comfortable would you feel if some lone male walked up and was searching for something nearby? You need to consider these things when placing a cache.

I honestly believe that the answer to the OP's question is completely relative to the situation. If the cache has been abandoned and somebody within the community wants to keep that cache alive for one reason or another (we have one such cacher in our area), then I believe the "throwdowner" would own the cache in that situation. Now if somebody throws down a cache without the cache owner's permission simply because they could not find it and claims a find on their throwdown, then it's trash for the CO to remove. I'm sure there's more examples, but those are the two that immediately come to mind.

jfpinelli, no offense, but I suggest that maybe you should find some caches first before trying to place your next one. Placing a cache that's within the guidelines sometimes comes with experience and seeing examples that others have set first to see what/where is acceptable in your area for a cache placement may help you in the future.