ITSecGal

Interesting point and I believe that if published guidance is provided by the land manager, such as has been done by the NY DEC at the following link, and you are in compliance with the published guidance then you have met the requirement for "obtain owner's permission". I did note that the NY DEC requirements vary based on which state park (or other managed area) the cache is being placed in so it looks like NY DEC provides general guidance and then each suborganization provides additional guidance, many of which require a permit/written permission prior to placement of a cache. https://wiki.Groundspeak.com/display/GEO/New+York#NewYork-NewYorkStateDECgeneral I now see the reason for for the geocaching.com site disclaimer and for the statement that CO's assurance of obtaining owner/land manager approval before placing of cache is required before cache is posted to the site. This transfers the legal responsiblity (along with other risk factors) to the individual visiting a cache site along with the CO and reviewer. Keeping that in mind I will definitely review all of the potentital risks involved before approaching a cache site, to include trespassing.

I appreciate the responses from everyone who replied to my questions. From reading the responses there appears to be two lines of thought....one is to ignore the fact that the cache is on private/government/school property and just make a decision for yourself on whether or not you want to search for the cache based on the location. The other recommendation I've seen is to publish a "NA" on the cache so the reviewer will take action on the site. Since there is very little control on the geocaching.com web site to confirm that CO's have received property owner or site management permission it seems that geocachers are using the information posted at this site "at their own risk" and may be questioned by police and be escorted off a property as they may be trespassing on private property when attempting to reach a cache site. It would seem that at a minimum geocachers should be posting a "NA" notice on the cache if there is a question of whether or not owner/site management permission was obtained. It would be nice to know about any issues with cache sites before making the trip out to the site location. One note....I think the number of caches placed without owner permission that are posted at the geocaching.com web site would be reduced if the COs were required to provide the name and contact information of the property owner/site manager who provided permission as part of the cache registration process with the information being validated by the reviewer before the cache is approved for posting to the site.

Like in the difficulty descriptions in Ratings for Difficulty and Terrain? So the difficulty is determined by two factors....time to reach and time to find with the time factor starting from the point that you reach the first stage site plus adding in any additional time required to solve a puzzle to determine site coordinates? That would make it seem that multi-stage caches would automatically have a difficulty rating of 2 or more stars if the stages are far enough apart that you have to drive between the points.

I wish that time would be included as one of the rating factors for a cache as each stage can be easy to locate and easy to reach but completing the entire sequence can take hours or days based on distance, traffic, and the number of stages involved. The way the rating system is currently configured CO's can become confused in assigning ratings for multi-stage caches as time is not really listed into the current ratings.

I've recently started geocaching and have found that I really enjoy the hobby. The only issue that I've encountered that has caused me to question whether or not it is something that I want to continue is what appears to be caches that are placed without any form of property owner permission. If these were just out in some woods that are part of a state park I would not be as concerned. What I have found, and have corresponded with a CO about, are caches that are placed near play grounds, private company property, school grounds, parking garages, neighborhood entrances, etc. One cache I located was within a subdivision between what the county considers "common private property" owned by the Homeowner's association and a private residence. When I first approached the site I was not too concerned as the the rules for a cache to be posted at this site require that a CO validate that the property owner's permission was obatined prior to placing the cache. After looking for the microcache I realized the GZ was located around utility boxes for the neighborhood. At that point I started to become more concerned due to the area being in close proximity to a private residence and it did not seem the type of area that a Homeowner's association would allow a cache to be placed....maintained landscaping and utility boxes so I left the site. Later that evening I sent an email to the CO to confirm that he had received owner authorization to place the cache and he stated that he had not as he thought it was "public property". I replied back that based on my recent experience with the county regarding maintenance of a similar type of area in our neighborhood that it was not county property. The CO replied back that if I was concerned I should not go back to the cache. As the CO validated that he had not received owner permission, and I thought there was a chance that the police may be called by local property owners if they noticed a stranger in that area, I then posted a note on the cache page stating that the CO had confirmed that property owner permission had not been obtained and that the cache was in close proximitiy to a private residence. The CO then deleted the note from the cache log without comment. What I would like to know is how the geocaching community utilizing this site recommends this type of situation be handled? What should a geocacher do when it appears a cache listed at the geocaching.com site has been placed without permission in an area where it is likely that local residents/property owners will call police if they see someone they do not recognize in the area of the cache site? I've viewed a couple of logs where police have approached a geocacher who was looking for two different caches in our county.