SG-MIN

I've got kentucky. Another option to make it even easier to maintain is to use existing caches for the multi. So rather than have a cache to maintain that might get visited once a year (if you are one of the last states) is in each state have a designated cache that is a "50-stater" and in that you have a clue for the final cache (in DC???). That way people who visit the cache regularly would see the clue in there, along with a list of all the other state caches (ie virgina-gcv4rt, washington-gcfr43t, etc.) and then get interested in the BIG HUNT. What do you all think?

the oldest in Kansas (and the oldest active in the world) is Mingo (GC30)

point taken... BTW, would you mind if I hid my spare car keys in a magnet key holder on your hood?

also, I thought it interesting the previous posts on similar topics. Thread 1 Thread 2

It seems the same arguements have been made both ways - lets ask an equally important, and much mroe practical question: Who has the final call on the matter? (regardless of whether it is a sticker, micro, or rock) considering: One Reviewer recommend I do it The actual cache reviewer disagreed, but left it to my descrtion The property managers have been contacted There is no official stance from geocaching.com

Keep in mind that this entire conversation is just over 24 hours old. Even if I did decide to utilize an alternative method for posting the coords, with my work schedule I could not have changed it yet. From the time this thread started, until Bluegrass reviewer posted his decision - I didn't have a clear answer on the acceptability of a sticker so I asked the forum. I am not defending my position, I am asking why. Rather than using the same-ole same-ole tecnique, I wanted to try something unique. If you lookat my posts, I only ask "how is this differant than..." Those are honest questions. I have only been caching 1.5 months and sincerely appreciate the input from veteran users. As for asking the DOT, I am afraid this brings us to the explicit versus adequate persmission debate, which none of us want to get into. Since there was a question on the matter, I wanted to get the opinion of those that ultimately mattered (the DOT may be against magnents, micros, and rocks with coords next to their sign). In the end, it doesn't matter what the forums thinks, or even what the reviewers think. If the DOT is against it, it all must come down. As to the permanance of the sticker and adhesive properties changing - well, that is why I asked the question. Hopefully you all will take the time to enjoy the cache once it is published.

To keep the facts straight, I never said it was or was not defacement/grafitti. I came to this forum to get feedback of the community (and I thank you for your well stated opinion). To speak to the removeablity issue, your arguement does not stand in light of traditional caches. I have OFTEN been frustrated by a cache that was easily removed (muggled) by someone. That does not mean we should not place caches. We appear to have found ourself in a situtation where opinions have been stated, but neither side can back up a point with absolute assurance of correctness. The Cache Approver has also stated how the cache will be handled. In my mind, unless Groundspeak officially addresses this issue, we are at stalemate. In the meantime, I am in the process of corisponding with the Kentucky Highway Department to get their opinion on the matter. In the end even if Groundspeak says stickers are okay, if KY DOT says no, we are again at a moot point. All that is to say I appreciate your input and opinions, and will keep you posted if anything new develops as to the legality of placing stickers on stop signs.

use easygps to download the waypoints or you can simply place your own caches that are not listed on the site.

I just helped a friend set up an anniversary gift for her husband who is a geocacher. She set up a multi that took him to places of signficance in their relationship, each one had a small present and coords for the next stage. Eventually he ended up back at his own home where the real prize was.

I just recently visited the oldest active cache in the world and it happens to be in its original container. Granted we are talking Kansas, but this one is so old it is still called a stash. (Mingo - GC30)

I hope you are not ignored. I appreciate your information and perspective.

Now that is reusable!!!

my last comment came without reading the one from bluegrass reviewer. Please refrain from judgment on the "official position" comment above.

no fixation with the stop sign - the topic just came up because of the differing opinions between reviewers and I was looking for a concensus (which appears to be largely missing). The reason I even have a stage at a stop sign is because of the nature of the multi. It utilizes directions as well as coordinates, and a stop sign was the easiest reference point. I would tell you more, but that would give away the mystery of the cache. I have already seen 3 local cachers active in this forum, and I want to save them the surprise. In brief - no fixation with a sign, just curious groundspeaks official position - apprantly it still needs to be formulated.

whoops... I told my wife I was heading to bed. I am off for real this time. I will catch up on the controversy tommorow morning. Keep it sane fellas

My response, for all who are interested: Greetings SG-MIN, Thank you for your patience. I have viewed your forum topic discussion on this issue. Since I am a conservative reviewer, I still do not feel the sticker is appropriate. As you have conflicting answers from two reviewers, I will leave this portion of the cache hunt up to your discretion. If you do decide to go with the sticker and I get even one complaint, I will have to archive the cache. I appreciate the amount of thought and planning that you have put into this hide. Please let me know what you decide about this stage either way. I will begin the mapping process tonight, and if all goes well it may be published as early as tomorrow. Sincerely, Bluegrass Reviewer Geocaching.com Volunteer And here is my responce: Reviewer, Thank you for your patience as well. I do understand the tough job you have (as can be seen in the forums). I appreciate your understanding on the issue. I would be more than willing to compromise. How does this sound to you: We publish the cache as is. In the meantime, I officially contact the road department to see if they have any problems with the placement - if they do, I will work directly with them to develop a solution - either traditional micro, a magnet, or a complete overhaul of the stage. Additionally, I would be curious as to what Groundspeak's official position becomes on this matter. Hopefully the confusion here can clarify things in the future. Finally, concerning the forums, I have told them I would keep them posted. I would like to seek your advice as to how I relay our coversation and eventually our final decision. Thanks again for your service to the community.

Torry, We get back to my original question (and then I promised my wife I was heading to bed). What makes the sticker vandalism? That is a serious question! Let consider a few variables: It is possible to have permission; it is removable, it is not seen in 99.99% or circumstances. I am asking this question to you with no sarcasm or spite. I want to know what makes it an automatic act of vandalism in your book when the reviewer who recommend I do it did not see it that way.

I will tell you what folks... after my first day checking the forums and responding, I already feel jaded and legalistic. I need to get off the computer and out into the wild to find some caches.

Let's stir the pot... Lets say I have permission from the road department. The rules of Groundspeak still stand... Do we still have an issue? No. But you won't get it. Imagine the advertising possibilities if the local highway department were to sell advertising on their stop signs. The "This median adopted by ... " signs get obnoxious enough after a while in some towns. Just imagine if you were to pull up to that red hexagon and it were to read, "Got an itch? STOP it with Preparation H" EDITED: To remove hasty comments. If a 2" x 3" sticker on the back of a stop sign that noone will see is equivelent to blatent advertising on the front of the sign, then a micro on a guard rail is equivelent to a self-storage unit. Hopefully we will get this resolved through the proper channels so there is no guess work and assumptions.

Let's stir the pot... Lets say I have permission from the road department. The rules of Groundspeak still stand... Do we still have an issue?

Agreed, but two I've seen in this area have the sticker on the post, which I think removes much of the controversy. I thought about this one on the way home. If it is defacing it is defacing regardless of whether it is on the sign or on the post. If a magnet is okay because it is easily removeable, a sticker should be the same way. If it is the "tacky" or "visable" or "bad precedent" we are talking about, any geocaching game peice that is ever visable could be seen as equally tacky, or as setting a bad precedent. (Is a micro on a guardrail defacing?) I hate having to get into the nit-picky nature of these cache placements, but as is, there are too many grey areas. Remember this whole post came about because I followed the advice of one reviewer, but was shot down for the placement by another reveiwer. IMHO, items like this should be covered in reviewer training even if the official rules are not posted. Lord knows we don't need any more rules.

thank you KEYSTONE. So basically my assumptions were correct. Adequate permission does not equate to be explicit permission and such most of this conversation appears to moot. I appreciate your explaination.

And that, my friend, is exactly the point of my question! Thank you! SOMEBODY had to say it - we don't get permission because it's too much trouble, and the community accepts living a lie because enforcing it might threaten the game! Now, we either petition Groundspeak to eliminate the guideline or we admit that we select which guidelines we will follow! If the latter, then all the recent uproar about following the guidelines to the letter is moot. I would appreciate my quote viewed in context. The logical ends I refering too was not obey the rules - it was requireing the explict permission of every land manger on every cache. Following the rules to a t should not be an issue - being exceedingly nit-picky is an issue. In Christianity we call this behavior LEGALISM!!

I still plan on waiting for a reply from my reviewer. Even if the issue does need to go higher up the line, I belive the reviewers in the area need time to puzzle over it before anyone goes over their heads.

I am waiting for the responce from the reviewer. I will keep you all posted.