Bobhiker

The Minnesota Geocaching Association, "www.MnGCA.org" Thanks Lizs for making us aware of the personal opinions of some certain park officials. These folks need to be educated about the benefits of Geocaching. Here at the MnGCA, we are currently working with three of the largest county park systems in the state. We are educating them on the benefits Geocaching can bring to their parks. They realize that this sport is doubling in size about every six months, and they would rather develop policy now to help develop it in a way that will benefit both geocachers and parks. If we can make this cooperation between parks and geocachers work, hopefully the MN DNR will reconsider their policy banning Geocaching.

We have reorganized to become more organized and have formed the Minnesota Geocaching Association. We are currently working with Hennepin and Ramsey county parks with their Geocaching Plan. There will be restrictions, but it is better than a total ban. The DNR has not been responsive to our efforts as of yet. You can check out our new web page at www.mngca.org It should be up any day now.

Here in Minnesota we started a group last May of 2002, called "Geocachers Exploring Minnesota." We have had some great people get it up and going. Our web site is, www.mngeo.com We had a picnic last July and had about 50 people attend. We have another picnic organized for the last Sunday in October. Our State Parks system has made Geocaching illegal, and we formed to try and figure out a way to do this activity safely in our State Parks with Park involvement. We are still working on this however. Hopefully this winter they will work with us to develop guidelines for this activity in our State Parks.

Here in Minnesota we started a group last May of 2002, called "Geocachers Exploring Minnesota." We have had some great people get it up and going. Our web site is, www.mngeo.com We had a picnic last July and had about 50 people attend. We have another picnic organized for the last Sunday in October. Our State Parks system has made Geocaching illegal, and we formed to try and figure out a way to do this activity safely in our State Parks with Park involvement. We are still working on this however. Hopefully this winter they will work with us to develop guidelines for this activity in our State Parks.

I don't think the park service would take a cache, only to replace it with a cheaper one. I am really surprised that you had trouble even with it chained to a tree. One thing you can do is become a premium member of geocaching for $30 a year, and make it a members only cache. Doing so, the owner of the cache can see who looks at the cache page. Then you can see who has looked and visited, and who has just looked, and possibly taken! Also, if the park service wants to see it, they have to help support geocaching to do it. You will also see when they look at it too. Plus, you know your setting out to find a good cache when it is done by a member. Less likely to be destroyed. Good Luck. Maybe thats why they call it the Bad Lands.

I found a cache once that was a piece of glad-ware. It was full of water and everything in it was ruined. Me and my daughter were disappointed at first, then I remembered that if nobody took the time to place them, this game would not exist. KB takes the time to place a lot of caches, and the ones I have seen have been really good. I have also noticed too that if someone finds a problem with one, he is right on it to either fix it, or remove it. Thanks KB for all the caches.

You mean these GIS reps. get paid to geocache! Sounds like a fun job. I think after doing it for the DNR, they are discovering that it is not such a bad activity after all. I see Arol was a GIS rep. and has found about four caches outside of state parks within just the last week. Great to see, welcome to geocaching. It is a fun activity to do with your family. Thank you for your efforts to work with us. I wonder what a ranger would do if you said you went looking for a cache and then discovering that it was confiscated, went to the ranger office and ask to see it. Then cache through it and leave it for the next cacher to find. The DNR web site said "no Geocaching without permission." Do you think we can set up some sort of environmentally safe cache with the involvement of a ranger on an individual level. Such as in Forestville State Park with Arol's involvement. I think an experiment like this would give us a lot of ideas on working with the DNR on the issues.

I think the State Fair is a great idea. I go every year. I thought about this the other day. We could make it a yearly event, moving it around. I think it should be a Secure Cache however. We may get press on this, it might as well be positive. We are coming up with some ideas for this to make this activity more safer in high density areas. If it is near the DNR building, this would give them an example of how a Secure Cache may work. It would be a good experiment! A Secure Cache is an ammo box with a padlock on it. The whole thing can be bolted or chained to an object. I currently have two of them in use in the Minneapolis area. They are new, so we will see how they work. But yes, I say go for it. Maybe some vendor will let your bolt it to their booth. Or behind it. Do it right though, and get permission.

THANK YOU MR. MORIARTY for your positive comments. This is what we have been working towards. Folks! This guy is the one we have to thank for endorsing Geocaching in Ramsey County Parks. Please take all his concerns seriously when placing or caching in all our parks. We need to have a positive relationship with the managers of our parks and work with them on the issues if we would like to continue our fun activity in the parks. Thank you again for taking the time to work with us Mr. Moriarty. Bob

Hey everyone, thanks for all the help getting this going. All your ideas help. For those who haven't been following this, come on over and check out the Minnesota Geocachers website. www.mngeo.com/gem As for the state park issue, I don't think they will put many resources into finding the current caches due to there recent budget cuts. Consider them grandfathered in. We have not received any indication that they want to work with us as a group concerned about responsible geocaching in Minnesota. Until they indicate that they would like to work with us, I don't plan on helping them communicate their new policy with the current cachers in their parks. 99% of the current cachers will not see this new policy anytime soon. If they had indicated that they wanted to work with us, we as a group could contact every cacher and have them work with their park manager on the issues each park has to improve their cache. Hopefully we can change the way they view us soon.

Brenna!!!! This looks great! Thank you for your wonderful contribution, not monetary, but for your time and expertise in creating a great web page for us. Rob

And... here is the response I received from Mr. Hains. Thanks for your note. As you have heard, we are working on procedures to not allow geo-caching in state parks, at least for the immediate future. Within the next few weeks, we will be getting information to our site managers on exactly how this will be managed. We gave this quite a bit of thought, weighing the interest we had in the positive sides of the recreation, and the concerns we had about it. At this point, the concerns were a greater issue and outbalanced the positives, from our perspective. We are not necessarily thinking of this as a permanent decision, but only time will tell on that. For now we felt that we needed to take a position, and this seemed the most responsible approach for us. The concerns that we have are as follows. First of all, you have to look at this from the perspective of a Government Agency. If we sanction the activity, we are not going to be able to avoid responsibility and just walk away. If there are problems, we will be partners in the resolution. If there are court cases, we have deep pockets. I think that you can see what that could mean. Second, there are resource concerns. We are very concerned about maintaining the resources and ecosystems in state parks. It is a major responsibility that we are given through state law. Obviously, a poorly placed cache, or one that is dug into the ground, or one that is disguised by covering it with vegetation from at the site, or one that attracts quite a bit of use into a sensitive area could be quite damaging. In some areas, even a small amount of traffic can have serious impacts, destroying plants, creating volunteer trails, starting erosion, and so on. Third, there are concerns about what might be in caches. We understand that people who pusblish the locations of a cache (especially if they worked with us before hand) would most likely use good judgement about what they place in the cache. We trust that they would avoid any offensive or dangerous materials. But if we don't work with people in advance, we are not so sure that the sites would always meet standards of good taste and safety. We are concerned about what visitors to the site might do to the cache, in terms of making it hazardous or offensive to others. This seems to be an uncontrolled aspect to the sport that could be quite enticing to people whose intentions may not be all positive. The fourth issue is workload. Some of the concerns that I mentioned above could be mitigated by having our staff work with geo-cachers on placement locations and contents, check caches on a regular basis, work out problems if they arise, etc. It might not be completely effective, but would certainly help. Timing on this is just not the best, as we are looking at large reductions in our budget for next year. Our focus right now is how to reduce work load on staff, and we are simply not very interested in taking on extra responsibilities at this time. I hope that answers most of your questions. With some time, we may be able to work around the concerns we have. We may not. Also in time, we may see how the sport evolves. It may evolve very positively, or it may not. Given the issues listed above, we felt that the logical approach, at this time, is to not allow geo-caching. I would be happy to discuss this further, if you like, and I am sure we will be willing to give this further consideration and re-evaluation at some future time. Mr. Hains. As you can see, he put a lot of thought into this letter. The issues are real and genuine. I guess the state doen't want to be liable if anything happens. This is understandable. What can we do??? Keep the good ideas coming... Here is Mr. Hains email address. ron.hains@dnr.state.mn.us If you write, please be courteous and respectful. Sounds like he is willing to listen and work with us in the near future. We need to get a good relationship going. Thanks Bob [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 22, 2002 at 03:34 PM.]

And... here is the response I received from Mr. Hains. Thanks for your note. As you have heard, we are working on procedures to not allow geo-caching in state parks, at least for the immediate future. Within the next few weeks, we will be getting information to our site managers on exactly how this will be managed. We gave this quite a bit of thought, weighing the interest we had in the positive sides of the recreation, and the concerns we had about it. At this point, the concerns were a greater issue and outbalanced the positives, from our perspective. We are not necessarily thinking of this as a permanent decision, but only time will tell on that. For now we felt that we needed to take a position, and this seemed the most responsible approach for us. The concerns that we have are as follows. First of all, you have to look at this from the perspective of a Government Agency. If we sanction the activity, we are not going to be able to avoid responsibility and just walk away. If there are problems, we will be partners in the resolution. If there are court cases, we have deep pockets. I think that you can see what that could mean. Second, there are resource concerns. We are very concerned about maintaining the resources and ecosystems in state parks. It is a major responsibility that we are given through state law. Obviously, a poorly placed cache, or one that is dug into the ground, or one that is disguised by covering it with vegetation from at the site, or one that attracts quite a bit of use into a sensitive area could be quite damaging. In some areas, even a small amount of traffic can have serious impacts, destroying plants, creating volunteer trails, starting erosion, and so on. Third, there are concerns about what might be in caches. We understand that people who pusblish the locations of a cache (especially if they worked with us before hand) would most likely use good judgement about what they place in the cache. We trust that they would avoid any offensive or dangerous materials. But if we don't work with people in advance, we are not so sure that the sites would always meet standards of good taste and safety. We are concerned about what visitors to the site might do to the cache, in terms of making it hazardous or offensive to others. This seems to be an uncontrolled aspect to the sport that could be quite enticing to people whose intentions may not be all positive. The fourth issue is workload. Some of the concerns that I mentioned above could be mitigated by having our staff work with geo-cachers on placement locations and contents, check caches on a regular basis, work out problems if they arise, etc. It might not be completely effective, but would certainly help. Timing on this is just not the best, as we are looking at large reductions in our budget for next year. Our focus right now is how to reduce work load on staff, and we are simply not very interested in taking on extra responsibilities at this time. I hope that answers most of your questions. With some time, we may be able to work around the concerns we have. We may not. Also in time, we may see how the sport evolves. It may evolve very positively, or it may not. Given the issues listed above, we felt that the logical approach, at this time, is to not allow geo-caching. I would be happy to discuss this further, if you like, and I am sure we will be willing to give this further consideration and re-evaluation at some future time. Mr. Hains. As you can see, he put a lot of thought into this letter. The issues are real and genuine. I guess the state doen't want to be liable if anything happens. This is understandable. What can we do??? Keep the good ideas coming... Here is Mr. Hains email address. ron.hains@dnr.state.mn.us If you write, please be courteous and respectful. Sounds like he is willing to listen and work with us in the near future. We need to get a good relationship going. Thanks Bob [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 22, 2002 at 03:34 PM.]

Hi folks. Here is a email I sent to Mr. Hains down at the MN DNR. Dear Mr. Hains. Please send me the information on the issues the State has with Geocaching in Minnesota State Parks. I think it is possible to work together and continue this activity with the cooperation of Minnesota State Parks on a park by park basis. I think guidelines can be developed on the type of cache used, and the location in which it is placed, and on how often it is moved. I think geocachers can develop a relationship with individual park management to work on these issues. Geocaching is a rapidly growing activity and there are parks around the world that are starting to sponsor it. I know of scout troops, elementary classes, and schools that have built caches and started travel bugs to learn more about the environment and geography. Please put more thought into this and maybe we can all work together on some guidelines to follow so this activity can benefit both geocachers and Minnesota State Parks. Sincerely, Bobhiker. [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 22, 2002 at 03:28 PM.]

Hey, I'm part of a union, and it sure is nice to be a member of one. As a group we can get more done. I agree with moving the cache every so often. I am not sure after how many visits it would need to be moved. I guess it would depend on how often it is visited and if vegitation around it is getting trampled or not. If a cache doesn't get visited often, it might not see much wear around it. But I think one person per park needs to build a relationship with the Park Manager so that we can learn the individual issues they may have in that park. Such as sensitive areas to avoid, how far off the trail to place it, and how often they feel we should move it. I think it should be checked every so often too, just to check the contents for inappropriate items, and see how the area is weathering. So this is why I don't think just anyone should move it after so many visits. Issues I think we need to discuss are: 1. Type of cache. 2. Lockable? 3. How often moved. 4. How far off trail. 5. Relationship with Park Managers. 6. Define areas of park not to cache in. 7. Who is going to maintain cache. 8. How often to check on. Might be able to do this with notes people write on their visits. ... Eventually we will have guidelines set up. I don't want to call them rules, but I think we need something set up so that we are all together on this when we go to a park manager and try to convince them on sponsoring this activity in their parks. If we have guidelines, they and we will know what to expect from each other. I received a reply from Mr. Hains from the DNR down in Saint Paul. When I get home I will try to copy it over on this forum. He mentions many issues I listed above. I am also in contact with a manager with the Minnesota Wildlife Refuge. He said he was glad I was asking, but that it would be illegal to bury a cache in the refuge. We have a lot of educating to do! The more ideas we get, the better. Thanks for your input.

Hey, this is not just a local group. All Minnesotans are welcome! Even new ones! State Parks are all over Minnesota and we will need people from all over the state to work with the individual managers to respectfully sponsor a cache in State Parks. Sounds like we might have a chance on the individual level, refering to the notes over on the "Illegal caches in Minnesota" forum. Those folks down there near forestville SP. Good Job. Let's try and meet with Arol and find out if there can be a possibility of discussing and working together on the issues on his or her mind. Lets identify issues and set guidlines as a group as to how we will geocache respectfully. I'm not a tree hugger, I've cut down many, but I think we do have to identify issues parks have and show them that we can work with them, rather than against them. Here is link to the Wisconsin Geocaching Associations website. www.wi-geocaching.com Anyone with computer skills to build something like this. Or any other ideas on how we can work as a group together. Thanks for your inputs. Rob My email is WWW.BOBHIKER22931518@CS.COM [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 17, 2002 at 08:38 AM.] [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 17, 2002 at 08:41 AM.]

Hey, this is not just a local group. All Minnesotans are welcome! Even new ones! State Parks are all over Minnesota and we will need people from all over the state to work with the individual managers to respectfully sponsor a cache in State Parks. Sounds like we might have a chance on the individual level, refering to the notes over on the "Illegal caches in Minnesota" forum. Those folks down there near forestville SP. Good Job. Let's try and meet with Arol and find out if there can be a possibility of discussing and working together on the issues on his or her mind. Lets identify issues and set guidlines as a group as to how we will geocache respectfully. I'm not a tree hugger, I've cut down many, but I think we do have to identify issues parks have and show them that we can work with them, rather than against them. Here is link to the Wisconsin Geocaching Associations website. www.wi-geocaching.com Anyone with computer skills to build something like this. Or any other ideas on how we can work as a group together. Thanks for your inputs. Rob My email is WWW.BOBHIKER22931518@CS.COM [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 17, 2002 at 08:38 AM.] [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 17, 2002 at 08:41 AM.]

If anyone has any ideas or skills on getting this thing going, please post them. I think if we all get together on this we can come up with a system of working with parks to make geocaching work. I think if we do not do this, we will loose the Three River Park District too. (Formerly Hennipen Parks). If we don't come up with a positive side to this and communicate it, they will only see the bad. I think if we come up with some guidelines and work with individual parks to sponsor a cache, we can make this work. But it will take all of us to work with individual parks and managers to identify the issues that we would need to work around. Some issues are identifying areas considered sensitive, the type of cache to use, wheather it should be secured or not, amount of traffic each cache receives, how often it needs to be moved, and a sponsor to monitor and maintain each cache. As you can see it will take all of us to do this. You can say each cache out there already has an owner, but I think most of them have not been in communication with the individual park managers, nor are they being properly maintained. I am thinking of one in a Three Rivers Park that I visited. I would be embarrassed to even use that one as an example due to the poor quality of it. I don't consider gladware full of water a cache. If anyone is interested in this idea and has ideas, please post them. The Three Rivers Park is about to rule on this activity and I don't think they have a very positive view on it. We need to work fast. If we can gain their support and show we can improve this activity working with them, then we can work on the State Parks. If we don't improve our image as a local group concerned about the issues, we will be only be allowed to cache in our backyards. Thankyou for your time.

Hey everyone. Lets get started on getting together and forming the Minnesota Geocachers Association. We could get a web page and have annual get togethers. We could set up standards and guidelines for caches and hopefully work together with all parks so that we may continue our activities that we all enjoy. If anyone has any experience in forming an association, post some ideas. I think or neighbors to the East of us in Wisconsin have such an association. Here is their web page www.wi-geocaching.com [This message was edited by Bobhiker on May 15, 2002 at 06:25 PM.]

Is there anything in the rule book about vertual caches in State Parks? Maybe everyone who has one in a state park will make an interesting vertual cache to replace the actual cache. There is more we can do with this game! There is alot of abandoned litter in parks. Maybe we could use these as caches?

Thanks for the notes! I still have not been able to get ahold of anyone downtown. The number I was given is to Mr. Ron Hains. 651-296-2609. If you have email addresses, let us know them. Maybe we can all email them to show support for our sport. There has got to be a way to do this responsibly in OUR State Parks. I know there are managers out there that support it. Then there are others that see it as just more junk and litter in the forest that we all want to tramp off and find. I think if we come up with some standards for caching in our parks we can make this acceptable. The present caches are not that frequently visited. I think some things we can do is to keep them close to the trails. Use durable cache such as ammo boxes, well marked of course. I think the owner of a cache needs to manage it closely with the involvement of the park manager. Set them up with an account watching the cache so that they can monitor it via email. I also think that maybe they should be moved around often so that a trail is not trampled to a cache. Maybe parks would feel more comfortable with some kind of a locking system for each cache. These are just some ideas to think about. I think we all will need to become familiar with their issues and work with them on how we can make this work. If anyone else has ideas, post them. I have not heared anything other than that they had a meeting last week. Some of you sound like you know more. Let us know what you heard. Is anything in print yet? Did managers take your caches out of the parks?

I just got off the phone with a Minnesota State Park Manager. I wanted his opinion of geocaching. He said there was a meeting about it last week and that its been decided that it would not be allowed in all state parks. He gave me a number to a guy downtown St. Paul to talk to. I will try and talk to him today. I met this week with a Nature Center manager in Richfield about placing a cache. I wanted to introduce her to the sport and all the educational possibilities that it has. I used examples of caches that some girl and boy scouts have started, what the White Cliff Recreation Area did with starting a cache in their park in Missouri, and the positive learning aspects of a travel bug for classes and groups. She was very interested and said she would think about it. She was interested in getting together with all the Nature Centers in the area and doing a cache in each center. She also suggested that a travel bug could move from center to center. She was open to discussing it more and I will continue to work with her. This sport is going to be extremely limited to us if we continue just throwing caches into the woods. We need to work with park managers and educate them on the benefits of geocaching and the positive effects it can have on their parks. We need to be sensitive to the issues they have with geocaching. There are many issues and I know we can be creative and work within the boundaries of these issues. We cannot let geocaching be outlawed here in Minnesota and in the rest of the country. I think every park in the nation will be discussing geocaching this summer. Most sound like They're not going to allow it. Let's work with them to set guidelines to figure out a way to positively geocache in all parks. We need ideas. I will try and talk to this guy and see what issues the state of Minnesota has with it.