rhitchco

I belong to a wilderness SAR team in upstate NY, work for the Forest Rangers and State Police. Many of us use the Garmin GPSMAP60CSx and they work quite well. The radio feature of the Rino seems nice but is rather moot since we have to carry powerful handheld VHF radios anyway (programmed with 250+ public safety frequencies...the freq we use on a SAR mission is dependent on location and Ranger selection) and team leaders also usually carry GMRS radios (cheapies) for low-level communications within a team...when the info is not important for the system or the other teams. Only very rarely would one person work alone anyway. The location sensing feature of the Rino is neat, but realistically we just simply relay the coords to locate ourselves relative to other teams/people. The search base has a computer that can plot this on a very detailed topo map easily and almost instantly, and then they supply a bearing if they want us to join up or proceed to a specific point. And of course you can also plug in the coords in the GPS and make it a waypoint and do all the same thing....just a little more tedious; we just let the guys sitting in the A/C or heated command post do this! The Garmin Topo maps for the handheld GPS aren't the greatest (we use Maptech at search base...VERY detailed) but they suffice for the field. Don't forget to attach a secure tether to the GPS to prevent dropping it or loss. Small paracord works well.

If it has to do with cops and courts and traffic violations...the main thing is "follow the money"! It's ALL about fines. Of course the judge will rule in favor of the cops and radar, because that generates the money. You could set up Olympics-grade timing systems with an accuracy of 1/100 mph...and they'd STILL rule in favor of whatever generates a fine payment.

You're exactly right...FRS and GMRS are UHF based. I was more responding to the general question of reception in hilly wilderness areas and repeaters, which for most SAR teams are VHF. But there are UHF handhelds easily available with far more power than the consumer FRS/GMRS radios and UHF repeaters also. They are not normally what a ground-based SAR team would use but they can be gotten very quickly and programmed to match the Rino FRS frequencies. Obviously that wouldn't show GPS locations beamed from a Rino, but might be used to establish communications with the subject and could be used for picking up a broadcasting Rino unit and direction finding. Sorry for inadvertently adding to any confusion. rhitchco

Northwest PA, huh? Our team here (Rochester NY covering central to western NY) occasionally works in the northern part of PA if requested by state police or DNR. While NY state DEC and state police have big repeaters in the Adirondaks and Catskills region which we are permitted to use, we also have portable VHF repeaters and some dedicated SAR frequencies. And our SAR radios are permitted to have a bit more power, especially the mobile vehicle units. So for us, communication on VHF is almost never a problem. (The only time I can remember when our comms were messed up was in a search in the vicinity of many really high voltage transmission lines overhead. Disconcerting to hear all the buzzing and crackling overhead, pretty much the same on the radios. Got a nice suntan from 'em tho! We also know a couple HAMs with some interesting equipment. To make a long story shorter, if your son has a Rino type radio, and it's on, we stand an excellent chance of finding him quickly and efficiently.

"In a full scale SAR with a bunch of these things you'd have to set up your patterns with the line of site thing in mind. Wouldn't it be some kind of neat to have such a unit with VHF radios?" Yes, it would be VERY neat! Right now, when we go out, we're loaded with electronics (GMRS radio, 500 channel VHF radio, a second radio dedicated to helicopter comms, cell phone, GPS, night-vision, lights, etc.) in addition to a (usually) 45 lb pack (this is a wilderness SAR team). Anything that could compact some of this would be most welcome. It would also be extremely useful if a team could "poll" the locations of other relatively nearby teams and display them on the GPS's topo map. What happens now is that we periodically call in our coords over the radio to the search base and they update a computer map (MapTech) so as to keep track of who's where and can view the relative locations of the teams. If we need to hook up with another team or proceed to a location, we can either punch in the coords they give us or travel on a compass bearing provided by the base. If somebody would produce a 60CSx grade GPS married to a good many-channel VHF radio...like the Rino but with more guts...perfect! mogul2us

I am a long-term member (crew boss / team leader) of a state-accredited wilderness search & rescue team. I think this is really an interesting idea. If your son is in an area where he could or would wander off and you hang a device on him that can relay his GPS coords to a receiver via radio or whatever, that could potentially save a lot of work locating him (and potentially a lot of grief). I'm not all that familiar with the Rino model but my understanding is that it incorporates a GPS with a GMRS radio transmitter/receiver and can transmit GPS coords between units. GMRS radio has very limited range and SAR teams all use much (much!) more powerful VHF radios, but still...if the Rino can send it's coords to another Rino without active work on the part of the sender (i.e. your son), this provides an option that could potentially be lifesaving. As long as the batteries last, that is. Very handy for you and potentially useful for a SAR team. If our team responded to a callout like this and knew that your son was wearing a GMRS radio that was likely transmitting GPS coordinates, we'd move heaven and earth to get a bunch of these units almost instantly (there are ways of doing this) and try to equip every field team with them in hopes of getting his signal. It also opens up the possibility of being able to zero in on him quicky with helicopters and/or ATVs by flying/driving around likely area in hopes of picking up the signal. The GPS accuracy really does not need to be all that terrific; if we can get even an approximate fix we can get there quickly. If it were my son, I'd really consider it seriously. Alternatively...and maybe better, at least for a SAR team trying to find him...give him a sealed-up GPS capable cell phone to carry (one he cannot turn off). The battery will last a long time and if he's in an area of cell service and if that area is properly equipped (most are now), we can ring his phone (he need not answer) and get his GPS location. Or trangulate between towers. And this will last for days if necessary. The ultimate answer might be a PLB...but that depends on his being able to activate it and knowing when and how to activate it. The huge plus here is that a SAR team can walk right to him. The downside is that they are expensive and false or non-critical alarms are highly frowned on and possibly subject to huge fines. Oh...we all use GPS units of course, in our case Garmin 60CSx models. They are excellent. Good idea!

I think you'll find it'll do much better if you wait until you get to the first waypoint and then project to the next one from there. Some of us were playing around with chained waypoints and there seems to be something like a compounding of errors going on. If you put in all of the chained waypoints before starting, it will just get further and further off. mogul2us

Sorry about the double post...computer burped. rhitchco

Here's how this works in practice... -While responding to a SAR mission, or upon arrival at the CP or staging area, call up the area of interest on MapTech Terrain Navigator Pro and get the EXCELLENT 1:24,000 topo maps from it (can also get arial view, road maps, etc). - Print copies and distribute to each team leader. These will be MUCH more detailed than any GPS manufacturer's topo sets. - The teams go into the field, each team equipped with a hardcopy of the MapTech map and a GPSr with the GPS manufacturer's topo map set (i.e. in case of Garmin, Mapsource Topo). - The teams use the GPSr's with the built-in topo maps (i.e. Mapsource Topo) AND the printed maps (and compass, etc) to get to their assigned areas and conduct the search. - The teams can periodically call in their locations to CP and/or a clue find and the search base can put a waypoint on Maptech...with team number and time and annotation (i.e. "Team 2, LOC 1000hr", "Team4 found shoe CLUE #6 1055hr) - Upon completion of the assignment, the team returns to the command post, connects the GPSrs to the computer and uploads the tracks from the GPSr's to MapTech...the tracks (and waypoints) will be superimposed on the MapTech maps on the computer...giving an excellent idea of coverage...good enough to easily estimate POD's...and whether the area was covered adequately or needs to be redone. - Do this for all of the teams. You end up with an excellent overview of all the searching that was done for the day, with tracks for each team. - Continue this for every day of the search...keep adding tracks(different colors for each day or each team). You can annotate it with PLS or LKP, team ID's, etc. Measure distances, elevations, etc. All this combines to create an excellent search management tool and the search managers will have an excellent picture of what's been done, what needs to be done, special features, items of interest, etc. rhitchco

Here's how this works in practice... -While responding to a SAR mission, or upon arrival at the CP or staging area, call up the area of interest on MapTech Terrain Navigator Pro and get the EXCELLENT 1:24,000 topo maps from it (can also get arial view, road maps, etc). - Print copies and distribute to each team leader. These will be MUCH more detailed than any GPS manufacturer's topo sets. - The teams go into the field, each team equipped with a hardcopy of the MapTech map and a GPSr with the GPS manufacturer's topo map set (i.e. in case of Garmin, Mapsource Topo). - The teams use the GPSr's with the built-in topo maps (i.e. Mapsource Topo) AND the printed maps (and compass, etc) to get to their assigned areas and conduct the search. - The teams can periodically call in their locations to CP and/or a clue find and the search base can put a waypoint on Maptech...with team number and time and annotation (i.e. "Team 2, LOC 1000hr", "Team4 found shoe CLUE #6 1055hr) - Upon completion of the assignment, the team returns to the command post, connects the GPSrs to the computer and uploads the tracks from the GPSr's to MapTech...the tracks (and waypoints) will be superimposed on the MapTech maps on the computer...giving an excellent idea of coverage...good enough to easily estimate POD's...and whether the area was covered adequately or needs to be redone. - Do this for all of the teams. You end up with an excellent overview of all the searching that was done for the day, with tracks for each team. - Continue this for every day of the search...keep adding tracks(different colors for each day or each team). You can annotate it with PLS or LKP, team ID's, etc. Measure distances, elevations, etc. All this combines to create an excellent search management tool and the search managers will have an excellent picture of what's been done, what needs to be done, special features, items of interest, etc. rhitchco

I've thought about "rolling my own" as they say, but we get callouts all over the whole state (except metro NYC). It'd take the rest of my life to do it I think. Did load in all the Garmin topos for the whole state, that worked well...and they fit!

My SAR team also uses geocaching as a way to get members familiar with how to use their GPS. They need to know how to input coordinates in both lat/long and UTM, as well as what effect using the wrong datum will have on locating their search area. On a muddy trail at 3:00 in the morning, in the rain and poison oak is not the time to try to remember how to do those things! I sure do agree with that! Geocaching is a great and fun way to practice these skills...both by map&compass and by GPS. We are always in at least a 2-person team (minimum) and at least one of the team members better have this navigation stuff absolutely nailed. You mention both lat/long and UTM and one of the really great things I like on the 60CSx/76Csx is the ability to have both displayed simultaneously...we ground-pounders use UTM (NAD27 usually) exclusively while the helicopter pilots use lat/long. Also nice that they will properly convert a UTM point between datums. Between the helmet, glasses, headlamp(s), 24 hour pack, first aid supplies, rope equipment, bear spray, binoculars, big knife, the GPS, VHF radio, GMRS radio, cell phone, and pager it's a heck of a load and we are probably a walking electromagnetic disaster. We're using Mapsource Topo on the units (and Magellan equivalent, whatever it is) but the hard copy maps we're issued are from MapTech and much, much, much better. I would be one happy guy if Garmin would update the Topos and do them in 1:24,000. rhitchco

OOPS! Goofed. My bad! The handhelds are 5 watt, repeaters are 25 watt, mobiles and search CP base 40 watts. mogul2us

I belong to Massasuga SAR, a wilderness search & rescue team in upstate NY and we have been using GPS units for years. We have a couple "professional" versions, but they are old and clunky. Most of our team members buy their own and have a range of types...mostly Garmin models (Etrex Vista, 60CSx, 76C, 76CSx, etc)...at this point the best for our use seems to be either the 60CSx or 76CSx. No preference between these models, but some people like one keyboard layout better than the other (see comparision thread for more info). Both units do a spectacular job of holding lock under heavy tree cover, in drainages, etc. The built in compasses work well and are handy but most of us tend to use a regular compass for bearings, etc. We use powerful (25 watt handhelds for emergency use) VHF radios, sometimes with portable repeaters, to relay UTM coordinates to search base where they are entered into MapTech on computers...from this we can print updated maps, know where the teams are, etc. At completion of a mission assignment, the team's tracks are also put into MapTech, so that an indication of coverage is quite visible on a map. All in all, a good deal. Would recommend either the 60Csx or 76CSx. The "pro" versions seem no better and are not as cost-effective as the current high-end consumer types. mogul2us

Not to get off-topic too much, but to answer Alan2's question as to use of compass vs. GPS by SAR crews, I'd guess I'd say it depends on what the assignment or objective is. If ordered to follow a bearing to lay a bumpline or for some other reason, a compass is almost always used more than a GPS. However, the GPS is terrific for getting the distance measurements; much easier and more accurate than the usual pace counting. If we're trying to nav off of a terrain feature or such, most folks will use the GPS with the topo maps on it more. So no real clear-cut answer. The GPS is left on all the time though so as to get a tracklog of the coverage in the assigned search area...this, along with the tracks from other teams, will always get downloaded to a computer and put into Maptech to establish good documentation and to allow calculation of coverage ratios and POD's. This lets the SAR managers determine if a given area needs to be re-searched or not. If a lost subject wants to maximize their odds of being found by a SAR crew, they should not move around much. Somebody moving from an unsearched area into an area that has already been searched will greatly diminish their chances of being found quickly. rhitchco

Following the progress of this search was interesting and sad. A tragedy. I am an experienced member (state certified team leader/crew boss) of a search & rescue team and for anybody who ventures into the woods, off of a popular or well-marked day-use trail, I can only offer a few warnings: 1) A GPS can be a lifesaver if you know at least basically how to use it 2) BUT always take a compass and map as well...never rely on only the GPS (we all carry a GPS and 2 compasses and maps...always) 3) Try to get a general sense of the lay of the land before leaving any trail, preferably by topo map 4) NEVER, NEVER ever leave the vehicle if in a situation like they were in...this is your very best chance for survival...and of being found by the SAR teams 5) Stay put wherever you are...this will give the SAR teams the very best chance of finding you 6) If for some reason you must move, never leave the marked trail or road. Bushwhacking is a recipe for disaster if you are not equipped and know what you are doing. You will go in circles unless you are very careful. Mark as you go so you can find your way back; otherwise you probably will not recognize the way back. Nature can be very nasty. Be prepared.

Duuuh! Thanks! I'm not sure what I was thinking! Apparently not much... mogul2us

On my several months old 60CSx, when it is searching for satellites it displays a small box in the lower left corner of all pages that resembles "searchlights"...presumably to alert the user that the unit does not have a lock. Is there a way to turn it off if desired? Sometimes I just want to use the calculator and couldn't care less if it has a lock...but this little box obscures a key part of some screens. This may (?) have appeared with one of the newer software updates...I really don't remember seeing this when the unit was brand now. Thanks, mogul2us

I just recently upgraded from an Etrex Vista to a 60CSx. The Vista was a fine unit, but it would struggle under heavy wet tree cover, losing signal every now and then. The 60CSx is worlds better...simply amazing. It even works indoors in many places.

I confess! I'm guilty! I didn't notice! Me bad! Isn't it spelled "combative"? mogul2us

I took your advice and downloaded n-Route and tried it out today. VERY nice, I am impressed. Much better than the old Mapsource implementation of this. Works great with my brand new 60CSx. Thanks for the info. Much appreciated! mogul2us

Only the size. Much easier to see on the computer screen. Thanks for the tips! Wondered where it went...

Just upgraded from an eTrex Vista to a GPSMAP60CSx. Wow! But I remember that I used to hook my Vista to a notebook computer running Mapsource while in the car, and I had a display in Mapsource that showed my advancing track on the computer screen along with a compass and speed info down on the lower left of the screen. I can't seem to remember exactly how this modified Mapsource display cam eup nor can I seem to recreate it. Anybody remember this? Any clues or tips? Thanks!