Klemmer

Another very happy Delorme PN-40 user here. I agree that if you are just geocaching then the compass and altimeter are not essential or very useful. However, for serious hiking and Benchmark hunting, I believe they are worth it. Either way, PN-XX and Topo USA is a really good deal.

This was a very sad story locally some years ago: YORBA LINDA, CA — A police detective was killed by a freight train Wednesday while searching for a baseball bat believed to have been discarded near the railroad tracks after an attack, authorities said. As another officer waved his arms and shouted a warning, Terry Lee Fincher, a 16-year department veteran, apparently took a step away from the approaching train, police said. But the 48-year-old detective was sucked into the side of the locomotive by the pressure of the passing train, which was moving downhill about 50 mph, Brea police investigator Bill Hudson said. Fincher was hurled down an embankment, where he was pronounced dead. "It's such a shame that he was killed over a baseball bat," said Hudson, who had worked closely with Fincher. The accident occurred about 8:30 a.m. when Fincher and several other officers were searching the area near Esperanza Road and Hickory Drive. Hours earlier, police had arrested four young men on suspicion of following a couple from a bar and beating them with a bat near some railroad tracks. The detective had been combing a rocky area near the tracks with his back to the oncoming train, police said. The train was just rounding a turn, and the view was partly obscured, said Mike Martin, spokesman for the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Co. The train's crew spotted the detective walking on the tracks when the train was about a third of a mile away, Martin said. By the time crew members hit the brakes, they were about a sixth of a mile away, he said. "There's not a lot of time to react when you're traveling at around 75 feet per second," Martin said. Fincher stepped back when the conductor blew the horn and flashed the lights, Martin and police said. Although he stepped away, Fincher was pulled into the train by what engineers call the Bernoulli principle, the same phenomenon that causes a piece of paper thrown out of a fast-moving car to fly back toward the vehicle. The train, with two engines pulling 19 cars, originated from Kansas City and was heading to Los Angeles. Because it was heading downhill, the train might have been less noisy than usual, Martin said.

Thanks for the chuckle, TillaMurphs. Unfortunately, how very true....

Folks: I'm not sure about the geodetic / database issue here (I'm as puzzled as the rest of you), but I do know: WAAS is not a datum. As many of you know, they (or often it) are a set transponders on geosynchronous satellites that (with help from ground stations) can improve the accuracy of your GPS receiver. What Lat / Long coordinates your consumer handheld units displays to you is also heavily influenced by the datum you set into the unit. In fact you can set in NAD27 as a datum, and get good valid coordinates (using WAAS) to cross over to older USGS 1:25K Topo maps. I've done that several times. So - for NGS to assume the coords are HH1 and are input with an ITRF2000 datum,and then translating them to HH1 NAD83 just does not seem right, as several folks above have said. Can anyone give DaveD a heads-up to check this out? I've also got 20+ scaled finds (some way off) I'm getting ready to log, including HH2 coords. BTW: TillaMurphs - I agree with Paul - keep up the good work! Klemmer

If these are what you were looking for (I'm not sure), here's a link to the US Coast & Geodetic Survey Special Publications and the US Coast & Geodetic Survey Annual Reports The latter one goes back to 1837! Both have a further page link that allows various modes of indexed searching. Good stuff! Klemmer

Looks like we will soon have one less WAAS transponder operating (i.e. WAAS "satellite"). It will only effect Northwest Alaska. Details here in the InsideGNSS article: "GEO Failure Puts WAAS Service under Stress" It's worth remembering that WAAS service (and EGNOS in Europe) comes from "tag along" transponders (fancy word, think of it as the radio signal transmitter for WAAS). These L-band transponders exist on some (not all) commercial geostationary ("geosynchronous") communication satellites. So far, no effect on continental US. If you're ever out there in the field and can't get WAAS (it's happened to me), you might be caught in a "switchover" (also discussed in the article). Give it 10 minutes or so, recycle the power on your receiver, and it could take 15+ minutes after that. WAAS is not at all as "dependable" as basic GPS.

The PN-40 comes with Topo USA. When you get it that way, it does include Canada (despite the software name). I haven't used them, but the CD I have says "Canada and Mexico Road Maps". So, again despite the software name, they don't seem to be Topo maps, but road maps. Go figure! These are "pre-cut" maps, ready to be transferred over to he PN-40. There are also available for download Canadian "1:50K Sheets". I think those are Topos, but can't swear to it. Once in Topo USA, they can be uploaded to the PN-40. When I bought my PN-40, you get $40 of "download credit". You can also get an unlimited amount of downloads for an annual membership to the Delorme "netlink" system, for (I believe) $30. Good deal. By the way, I'm very happy with my PN-40. Klemmer

How about a redwood 4 X 4 and a Rock Cairn from 1899, or what's left of the post: Seriously, that is what they used on the 1898 - 1899 survey up and down the CA - NV Oblique boundary. Actually, many of them are in better condition that this one. Amazing what the Mojave desert climate will preserve.

From a pilot's point of view, Z15's quote nailed it. We talk about airfield elevation, but aircraft altitude. When your aircraft altitude equals field elevation, you just landed. Hopefully.

Haven't seen a survey request. Been a member since 2001. Huh.

Wish I'd caught it. I'll have to look for the book. I enjoyed doing some research on the CA-NV oblique boundary surveys.

PART II The next stop on my 4/19/2010 hunt for 1899 drill hoes was BOUNDARY MON 138 1/2 CA NV (FS1140). Yes, it is one thirty eight and one half. Like Part I above, it is not in the geocaching.com database, and is in the NGS database with "No Descriptive Text available". In this case, the description in the 1900 field report does not seem to be incorrectly attached to any other published NGS datasheet. Nice 4 wheel drive to parking, decent half mile hike, some pretty easy rock scrambling (a little climbing), and the cairn was in sight (with PVC pipe signal pole). Original wood pole pieces and support wires found (familiar from other marks in the area). A more complete report with lots of pictures (including of the actual drill hole) is located on the nearest geocaching.com benchmark page, for BOUNDARY MON 138 CA NV (FS1142) Another great find! More Parts to this report, hopefully tomorrow, time allowing. BOUNDARY MON 138 1/2 CA NV GPS with drill hole. GPS "Go To" set to NGS database coordinates. 5 feet difference from 1899 to consumer GPS accuracy. Pretty darn good result! Klemmer (Larry) 4/25/2010

PART I On 4/19/2010, after spending a great weekend benchmark hunting with 2oldfarts and southpawaz in the Laughlin NV area, I extended my stay in the area for some solo benchmark hunting. I had started with months of research (off and on), including wading through most of the large 1900 Annual Report from the US Coast & Geodetic Survey. Several years ago, several of us (2oldfarts, the fossillady and Klemmer) found a number of drill holes from 1899. My goal was finding more of them. My first target was BOUNDARY MON 137 CA NV (FS1143). The survey mark (technically a triangulation station) is not in the geocaching.com database, as it did not have a datasheet in the NGS database, and so was not "picked up" in the upload by Groundspeak around year 2000 or so. As far as the NGS database is concerned, it "exists", but is of the type that has "No Descriptive Text available", and therefore has no datasheet at this time. BUT - it does have coordinates in the NGS database, and (as Papa-Bear NYC showed some time ago), when a find is logged, then a datasheet will be "created". Thanks for the inspiration, Papa-Bear! More details and pictrues are posted at the related mark T 137 (FS1147) on geocaching.com. I previously logged T 137 as a find (in 2007). Since BOUNDARY MON 137 CA NV is not in the geocaching database at all, I used T 137 to "log " it. Yes, I logged a "second" find on T 137, which is actually for the boundary monument. All things considered, I'm OK with that ethically in this case (not as a general rule). In summary, I recovered the mark (drill hole under cairn) for the first time since it was drilled in 1899, as far as the NGS database is concerned. I have two more similar situations to be logged. I'll add Parts II and III on this thread when I can log the other two, plus few others on 4/19 (I'm still on the road today, working from a hotel room on my laptop). I have to rate 4/19/2010 as my most successful solo benchmarkhunting day to date. Hopefully, there are more to come! And I sure had fun! BOUNDARY MON 137 CA NV (FS1143) (note that the wood post used to be a redwood 4 X 4 in 1899) Klemmer (Larry) 4/25/2010

I assume "3D" means both horizontal and vertical control on the same datasheet? Not something you usually see, at least in years past. With GPS, no reason it shouldn't be both, with good enough data gathered.

My best "Good Day" ever (so far, as there are always more to come, right?): I'm still downloading / looking thru pics, but from a solo day (Monday 4/19) west of Laughlin NV. Three "ghost" 1899 drill holes (these are marks in the NGS database with "No Descriptive Text Available"). BOUNDARY MON 137 CA NV BOUNDARY MON 138 1/2 CA NV BOUNDARY MON 139 CA NV The coords from the NGS "List" function were EXACT within HH2 tolerance) all three times. Amazing. All three drill holes there, one a "poor" because of the rotten granite eroded since 1899. These are the ones with no datasheets at the moment. When I log them, the datasheet will then exist. Papa Bear NYC was my inspiration for this "technique". I did a lot of reseach on these using the 1900 annual report from US C&GS. Thanks to NGS for scanning those reports an putting them on line. Of course, these will all be first recoveries. There are many more of these along the SW border of CA / NV. Come and get them! Also, two more 1899 drill holes, tri -stations: BEATTY - Will probably log as poor on NGS, as the rock with the drill hole in looked to probably be moved. QUAIL: Good. T141 - might be there. Cairn destroyed. Too much digging for me. Tired, late, hot (humid!)..... BOUNDARY POST 141 - 1936 disk (and RM's) recovered. I need to research what happened to the 1899 drill hole (BOUNDARY MON 141 CA NV). I think the 1936 disk was put into the 1899 drill hole. T142 - destroyed, in a dump area (per previous log, I think) BOUNDARY MON 142 CA NV - Needs more research. Newer mark over the old one, I think. One GREAT DAY! (after two previous great ones with 2oldfarts and southpawaz, and one more before that solo). Still recovering..... Many, many pics to sort, logs to write....

Hi Okie John (so as not to be confused with 2 oldfarts John!): We sure had a great time! I extended a day in the Laughlin area, and had a third (actually fourth in a row for me) great day. I'm still traveling, in Vegas area this week, still BM hunting today over near Pahrump NV. Not a great day today, had to quit early because of rain. Had to go through SNOW (!) on the way back to Vegas from Pahrump (5500+ ft pass). One teaser: On Monday near Laughlin, THREE drill holes from 1899, previously unfound since drilled. See "Great Day" thead.

Yeow! What a tragedy. What does your friend look like, by the way?

You said East - West in your original post.... But 167 degrees is pretty close to North - South. I would just go with: "... from a fence running approximately North - South..."

I created a similar cache about two years ago nearby in Southern California: "Can You Help ME Find My Cache" GC1B73V It was fun to create (including the upfront "fiction" part), but other than a few locals with the math / computer skills (and a good friend of mine), it doesn't get much attention. I suspect it's on a lot of the locals "Ignore" list. Oh yeah, a couple folks on the forum solved it also. You really only need three of the four benchmarks (I made it easier than I had to), and the key is the Tienstra Method. (top of the list is Mesa Mike, a forum regular - wasn't there when I created the cache!) Drawing lines on a map might work (if you're very accurate), and did for several of the finders, but the proper way is the Tienstra method (formula). It was a challenge I enjoyed to implement the Tienstra method in an Excel spreadsheet, and have it work! If anyone wants the challenge, I'll be happy to "grade" your solutions. Extra credit for doing your own math, rather than using Mike's Website. Drop me an email with your coords for the cache: lklem "at" roadrunner.com Klemmer

I'll be there! Since I need to be in Vegas on business the next weekend (plus a few days), I'm going to stay a few days longer in Laughlin (probably thru Wednesday). Hopefully that will give me more time to look for some additional 1899 drill holes. I've been working hard at "decoding" the field 1900 reports.

Paul: You may want to take a look at some of the publications from the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA). They are the Department of Defense (DOD) experts in most things to do with maps and related materials (e.g. imagery). HERE is a good link for their public documents relating to maps. Documents 2 and 3 have a lot to do with map datums, and are the basis for conversions of many worldwide & historical datums. At just a quick look, I didn't see any conversions from older Military grids, but I might have missed it. Item 5 (GEOTRANS) is the actual software to do the conversions. Might be related to the Army Corps of Engineers CORPSCON, not sure. I worked with it some, and it's relatively easy. There's also some general info / training materials on Geodesy there that are pretty good. They were not able to help me with my recent datum conversion project from an 1899 survey, but they were very nice about it. You might consider emailing them with your question. Larry (Klemmer)

GE = Google Earth Of course.

Thanks, Markduster. So - the 1899 survey folks couldn't find Von Schmidt's Field Notes, but now we have them on line (sort of - a bit difficult to retrieve). Huh. Will look into your info more this weekend.

Status (of the original problem): Doing Yolo Base Datum conversions (Klemmer's method, as easier for multiple points). Plotted the first two 1899 missing marks (No. 135 and No. 139) on map program (TOPO USA 8) 1) Both fell on the CA-NV border line (on USGS 1:24K Topo), well within reasonable error range 2) Both are located at spots on topographic features (hills) that compare favorably with the hand sketched topographic features from the 1900 field report. Remarkable! I'm happy! I think I may have a shot at recovering some of these 1899 marks that are not presently in the NGS database. Of course, I also plan to recover a number of 1899 marks that are in the NGS database. Company welcome. I plan to look for these 1899 marks (and others) west of Laughlin NV, in the time frame of several days (4/19-21) after our benchmark hunting gathering in Laughlin 4/17-18. Thanks for all the help!

Bill: Yes, I suppose it does say that. I didn't read the whole thing. The reason I mentioned it was more for the Appendices (A, B and C) which have all the datum transformations. Those guys know their datums (except the one I was hoping for). Here is a better link. Sorry, I didn't realize the next page from my original link was a sign-in deal. I had a different link yesterday with all their geodetic reports, that didn't require a sign-in, but I'm not able to find it again at the moment. Take a look at item 5 (GEOTRANS). It does all sorts of transforms, including one datum to another (as well as the usual geodetic to UTM, etc). Looks handy. P.S. I was able to go back and fix the link in my above post (in case you were wondering what Bill was talking about...)