Lostby7

I don't do many puzzles either. If you don't want people to earth cache and have it be elitist great. I would like to do earth caches. I enjoy the ones I do. But if I'm apparently not welcome to do earth caches because "not all caches are for all people" then fine. But if that is the official stance of earth cachers I would hope that is clearly posted on all earth cache pages and promoted by the overseeing group. So people don't become disenchanted and think earth caches are meant to be found by all cachers. Not just the select few. EarthCaches are no more an elitist type of cache than are puzzles...the fact remains that I cannot solve many puzzles...does that make the owner elitist? No. You many not want to publish a photo (any photo) does that make an EarthCache owner elitist? No. It's not a big leap to state that every cache is not for every person. I would occur to me if they did not want this activity to be widely accessible they would then eliminate the guideline about making them understandable by your average high school aged person. I get that some earth caches I'll never be able to do. Same with some high terrain caches and many puzzle caches. That's the reality. Earth caching is no different than any other cache in that some are going to be able to be found by many and someone aren't based on terrain alone. But this is my issue with these forums. You go Joe Average cacher with no education in geology being told what a great hobby earth caching is and how great it is to start ot learn about geology only to come here and find posts like "all caches aren't for all people." And how exactly does one think that looks to people? This is why I regret ever coming to these forums is posts just like these because it speaks louder about the community beliefs than all the warm fuzzies on the earth caching website. And as I stated before my issue isn't with taking pictures at the cache site. It was the numerous people who then made a leap from there to post pictures of yourself at the cache site. And maybe they guideline would not have been simplified to the degree it was if people hadn't spent so much trying to find ways around it. I couldn't care less if someone says take a picture of that giant rock over there. If that is what makes them happy fine. But don't demand that I be in that picture. I'm confused, if you agree with me that all caches are not for all people why do you chastise me for stating that obvious fact? Pictures of peoples faces is crossing the privacy line and I don't believe those should be allowed, eliminating pictures of the location itself is where disagree with the new rules.

I don't do many puzzles either. If you don't want people to earth cache and have it be elitist great. I would like to do earth caches. I enjoy the ones I do. But if I'm apparently not welcome to do earth caches because "not all caches are for all people" then fine. But if that is the official stance of earth cachers I would hope that is clearly posted on all earth cache pages and promoted by the overseeing group. So people don't become disenchanted and think earth caches are meant to be found by all cachers. Not just the select few. EarthCaches are no more an elitist type of cache than are puzzles...the fact remains that I cannot solve many puzzles...does that make the owner elitist? No. You many not want to publish a photo (any photo) does that make an EarthCache owner elitist? No. It's not a big leap to state that every cache is not for every person.

I know I have been attracted to some locations due to the photo gallery. One can still encourage posting of a photograge this way: Optional - to earn "extra credit," post a photograph of yourself with your GPS at your favorite location with your log. I have stated on my pages something to the extent of: Uploading photos to the cache page is the best way to say thank you to the cache developer and to encourage others to visit the location. Or Uploading photos to the cache page is the best way to encourage others to visit the location and to view changes throughout the year. Posting images of a waterfall year round really shows the process of its development and erosional powers. Check out this photo gallery taken all year round from a trickle to a flood and finally an ice flow... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/gallery.aspx?guid=679e3306-48a3-4d20-92c9-bab0db1fa439 Imagine the loss of these images...the images are what makes this listing so special to those who cannot make the visit...and encourages many folks to make the trip in the first place. Let's face it a cache page is not only for folks visiting the location, it is also for folks visiting the cache page.

I have seen the same thing where a very large number of favorited caches here in WI seem to be Earthcaches (or challenge caches). My question is why mess with success? Clearly the people have spoken, and they have said they like ECs regardless of the photo requirement. Here's a leap, but what if people are attracted to these listings due to the images which have been loaded on the cache page? But in the end I don't expect the new rules to be rolled back or to convince folks that my opinion is the right one. I just like a civil debate and to express my opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

Agreed. My point is just that all Puzzles are really geocaches with an ALR. There is no consistency in the guidelines across cache-types and there shouldn't be an expectation of consistency. Each cache type has it's own set of rules. There is no reason to require EarthCaches to follow the ALR rules when they already break those ALR rules due to the need for answering questions.

Or another way of putting it, Fun wins out over control. Groundspeak has a pretty well documented record of promoting fun, sometimes at the expense of control. People that have issues letting go of that control don't tend to do so well on this website. I went ahead and made the photo optional in ALL of mine. I guess the smiley wins over validation? Fun huh? I think finding all those puzzle caches would be fun. Groundspeak could you please send me the coords for all those so I can have some fun. I feel that many of the puzzle cache owners are too controlling in that they are way smarter than me and because of that I cannot go find their caches. I mean they require me to do internet research or complicated math or code breaking...I simply cannot be bothered by all that extra work. I don't feel the cache owner should be able to require me to do those things.

Yes I know arguing the photo requirement is like spitting into to wind. The decision has been made and I accept it...I just don't agree with it. My 10 caches have been updated to reflect the changes...the 20 others I wrote for friends are still out in the wild; I don't know if those folks will read about the new guidelines or not. I'm guessing not. The constant changing of the requirements is a PITA and are bound to cause more angst and frustration than any benefit that could come from the changes being made in the first place.

Well said Chokecherry...but every cache is not for every person. No one says you need to do EarthCaches. I love puzzles but avoid many (most) puzzle caches because they are simply too hard. I'm not going to demand that the puzzles all provide answers or hints just because I think they are too hard.

I went ahead and made the photo optional in ALL of mine. I guess the smiley wins over validation? OK I said I wasn't going to touch this subject but I guess I changed my mind... It was made clear that my obligation as an EC owner was to ensure that finds were legitimate. By watering down the proof of visit requirements, the "policing" of my ECs becomes more difficult. It seems clear now that TPTB no longer really care about the legitimacy of the finds, which isn't all bad cuz now I don't have to worry about reading and replying to all those pesky emails folks send me...but I have to wonder how they will bring back Virts without them having on ALR? This could get messy...well messier.

Wow! That's an amazing number of visits. I also saw a palpable measure of success the other day when I was going through my Favorite's the other day. All but perhaps three or four of the EC's on my Found list had been Favorited, a few in the double digits! I don't think any other cache type on the site can boast that kind of success and acceptance. Truly astonishing. Thanks for coming up with this cache type idea and for managing the program. Happy Holidays! Of the 15 of my caches which were favorited...none was a traditional and 8 of them were EarthCaches. Clearly folks appreciate EarthCaches.

Looks like I have some work to do....now that all my photo requirements have been made optional. I strongly disagree with this change...and that is the last I'll say of the topic.

If true then I salute his determination and stamina.

Thank you, it does not seem fair to the other user to me either now that I think more about it. The archived caches are the best source of information. Now for me to try and put it into my words. My listing will not be worth publishing without some of the geology lesson that I gained from the archived cache...... I do see where this is a difficult task for you. The original EC owner has done the work and gathered the information....this is hard work and once done an EarthCache is born. By his gathering the information and placing it in one nice package (the cache page) he has created possibly the best resource about the feature. Yep that's going to be hard to ignore. Can you use some of this information, yep you sure can but you will also need to do some research on your own. Where was the listing lacking information, what could you do better or differently? In many ways recreating the EC is tougher than creating it in the first place as now you have all the information in front of you and cannot fully use it. I think if you take your time and really try, you will be able to pull it all together. Doing so will be a great accomplishment. I don't know of any 14 year olds who have written a listing....I'm really excited to see how you do. Impress us.

I'm thrilled to hear that Groundspeak has taken a stand on plagiarism...particularity when it pertains to a fellow cacher's work. That said, I'm equally if not more thrilled that you have an interest in the sites and hope you can create some really great listings. There is very little that is easy about creating an EarthCache so you will need to do your best and try not to be discouraged...even for college grads this process is no walk in the park. As for the treatment of EarthCachers, I'll not touch that topic.

If you don't want your caches to appear on OpenCaching.com, the way to do it is to... upload them to OpenCaching.com!........ Nice step by step description...that should do the trick. And I applaud you on your wit. I have to also wonder what type of random numbering system they are using over at OC...is it possible for them to randomly assign an OC number suffix which matches an existing GC number suffix by chance? With a million caches in play seems like this could happen.

What's the point of trackables other than profit for the listing service...how many placed actually still roam free...maybe 50%...if it's a coin maybe 20%? Thank's I can do without the trackables. Good for you. For the rest of us, those that do like to see our trackables move and like to move those of others, it's a concern. The best way to avoid or reduce further loss in the traveler population is not to have caches cross listed. I think listing GCs caches there is a bad idea.

What's the point of trackables other than profit for the listing service...how many placed actually still roam free...maybe 50%...if it's a coin maybe 20%? Thank's I can do without the trackables.

For a site with no review process the sure did remove violating cache fast. hmmmmm... I think this is a moot point, they will regulate caches - next argument boys.... Its pretty obvious from their responses to issues brought up here that they are monitoring this thread. I suspect they are taking a close look at caches mentioned here. I bet caches that are not brought up in this thread will not receive the same scrutiny. I think that is obvious...just as Groundspeak is monitoring their forums...and checking out the profiles of those who post there. It will be interesting to see how both sites improve because of this development.

interesting timing. coincidence? I have a feeling we are in for a bunch of well timed changes and updates...at least I hope we are.

Agreed. It is not required that the face of EarthCaching be required to weigh in on every subject. He has our best interest and the interests of ECs at heart wether he posts his opinions or not. We shouldn't be attempting to drag him into every tiff or complaint we have. That is not fair to put him in that position. If he has something to add he will add it. Also Groundspeak has already shut down three threads about this subject so clearly they have expressed their feelings on the topic.

I'm also disappointed in this decision.

Here are the guidelines from the EarthCache site....to get specific ideas about your own placement I would recommend looking at other EarthCache listings on Geocaching.com.

Very cool! Nice of you to send multiple prizes. Time to update some HTML on my pages. Thanks for involving the community.

I agree with your first statement but totally disagree with your generalization about absentee EC owners. How many ECs or Virtuals for that matter do you know have been archived after TEN months of non maintenance especially when the owner wasn't allowed the so-called maintenance? I may be proved wrong and that wouldn't be the first time, but I dare say this situation doesn't fit the normal rules! P.S. An awful lot of us are absentee EC owners i.e. the lack of the applicable "vacation" rule! As much as I would like to, we don't get to the Bahamas very often! I'm not sure how long a (virt) cache must be unmaintained (nonresponsive to emails) to get archived, I only know it does happen. Virts have met this fate in the past and ECs are the same as virts in terms of maintenance needs. If one does not monitor the logs on verts then the logs all become suspect and armchair logs become problematic. Caches with fake logs get archived when those caches are discovered by the powers that be.

He must have really ticked someone off. I understand why the caches needed to be archived though; there cannot be absentee EarthCache owners. The same thing will happen to a virtual which is not actively "maintained". This is a very sad situation though.