evenfall

John, Again, I really have to wonder what end justifies your means. You were vehemently opposed to this Forum yet here you are... Again. I can't help but chuckle John. But I cannot take you seriously. Sorry John, Everything you say in here is lost on me. You may as well just say nothing at all, as I have tired of you having nothing nice to say. You will get further with me by saying nothing at all. I am not going to wade into it with you. I have offered to you many times the opportunity to contact me off the forum and you have chosen not to, as well as not to reply to my two attempts to contact you off forum. So I think I just put a fork in that eh? Done. :-) I wish you all the best with the Geodetic Interactive Spatial Referencing Devices thread in the other Forum. Going forward, You will be safe from my thoughts in there. As for everyone else, Thank you for your inputs and concerns. I do understand what you are trying to say, and I considered this, While you all make a good point, and a point well taken, the only official Horizontal Datum the NGS has is NAD 83. I am sorry that other Datums are close enough for whatever reason, but this is NGS work. We can avoid getting confused ever, if we try standardizing our practices, even when close seems close enough. Things are confusing enough. Intermixing these Datum can cause a lot more confusion that people think, This Confusion is not in my imagination either. I have seen it before. Been there. Washed my Truck with the T-shirt. It really is worthwhile to keep like with like. It is part of every surveyors work to deal with these things this way, and this is something that is part of that world. I am not saying anyone is wrong here, nor am I trying to back away from what I believe. But why not just follow the code. Why open the geocacher to the scrutiny that the Power Squadron has had put upon them. Integrity is made by following Standards. Buck had a very Salient point, in a very well thought out post. He feels he is somewhere along the growth phase of what a Benchmark hunter knows and understands. I am not anyones' Judge so I won't go there. But what I do want is for people to be Taught what is correct in the first place, If after they understand what is really what, and they want to play fast and loose with things, I cannot stop them, But they will know what was correct to the best of my knowledge if they learned it from me. It appears to me that Many People may really just want to do what they want because they are resistant and because the don't want to have to follow any form of direction. I hope I am wrong. Why is simply toggling your GPS to NAD 83 such a big deal? If we made any mistake from there, we sure would not have to explain that error, eh? If we cannot agree that a new Geocacher beginner bench marker is someone some would not feel comfortable working on a State Project in Wisconsin, Are we so sure we want to ask people to report things to the NGS when they don't understand how to toggle between Datum on their handheld? C'mon, I think we know that there are different Datum for different Purposes, and we know which ones we would be correct to use. WGS 84 is for Geocaching. I don't see anyone contesting that. If it is no biggie, then why would Geocaching bother to specify which Datum they are using? The NGS is 200 years old, they have their Datum too. It is what it is, and you all may do as you like, but I feel it is important and that is where I come down on it. As always, Rob

John, You think this is riduiculous? Was that you flaming me? :-D This makes NGS recovery equal Geocaching. Period. There is nothing further needing said. I mean you know that since you are in Arizona, that what goes in Arizona, Goes in all America, You are sure. Arizona = America? The people on the N. Slope in Alaska hope you are right. The Western United States especially in Vertical Movement is Undergoing Volatile moment which is in the multiple meter range in some places. This is something that WGS 84 does not even track. These Vertical anomalies can force changes to previously located Horizontal Positions. However The NAD 83 Datum adjusts for this. Why will NGS be developing the NAD 83 (2006) Datum if nothing has changed? Besides John, you have been opposed to this Forum from the very beginning, and you are not interested in NGS recovery. I don't see how this is your issue or why you would choose to become involved in it. If you want to take issue with me, The email is the most appropriate format for doing so. This in answer to you is worth repeating. I only need to quote myself from earlier in this thread. I digress. So Ah, Datum Schmatum, and Official NGS recovery now = geocaching. You can treat it the same as the game. For the record, This seems to be an interesting new NGS Sanctioned direction. I have always wanted to file an official not found on the Seattle Space Needle in the WGS72 Datum... Or, Whatever_Datum_I_Want! Just because I could. I was getting tired of walking the line, and Now I can! It isn't significant and No one will worry about it! Lucky Me! I wonder if it is healthy and happy? Is there a radio button for that on the Mark Recovery Entry Page? I feel so free! Ya think? Sure will make all this technical crap a lot easier. We no longer have to care! Now I can get back to my true focus of extolling the Virtues of red and white striped chaining pins! Yeah! Rob

John, I do understand what you are saying. I appreciate that you are trying to point this out. And you are not even technically wrong in the context of what we are doing. But there is a bad habit that can develop from thinking this way, and that is what I had hoped to avoid. My interest in this matter goes a bit beyond the obvious. A datum in and unto itself is a difficult thing to get ones mind around, and to add difficulty to that, people as a general way of being, filter information and remember it in generalized ways. We never know who will read this or what the concept is that they my have or understand. What I mean is that if someone who is thought of as an authority on something, or even just a really convincing person is to be heard saying that something is this way or that, Even in a certain specific context, the listener and their filter will tend to omit some specifics and then take what is to be remembered and generalize it the rest of the way. Then they will tell ten other people that their generalized understanding is the gospel truth. Their Listeners won't know any different, and won't know that what they have been told is a generalization, Not the actual situation or information. This happens all the time. But I feel we have the opportunity to teach a better way of thinking and approaching this. The survey field is literally awash with things that hard to understand, and that don't always make sense, but even still it is a science. One of the warts we see is that it is a general misconception among people that WGS84 and NAD83 are fully interchangeable. Some even think that a Datum is inconsequential. Generally Speaking, even while this is never technically true, to most, in the lay person category and even some professions, the difference does not matter. Still, after the "is it bigger than a bread box" test is applied, It is an erroneous construct. An improper belief. When we are dealing with Datum at this level, Which I mean for us to understand as the level we are working with here at geocaching, when recovering Survey markers to the NGS, it is safer, and just plain good practice to be as correct as we can. There is nobody standing over us with a stick here, but we should take it upon ourselves to go that extra mile, because we actually are dealing directly with the objects that physically represent the Datum itself. There are many things we discuss that would be technically incorrect if we do not observe this. And Scarier still to allow people to regard Datum data as not a big deal. It is safe to say that some people may think I am making a big deal out of that, I am, and just because the tendency of human Nature is to over simplify and disregard what seems too difficult to otherwise do. I am also saying that it is not always in our best interests to oversimplify, especially when this really isn't that hard in the first place. My premise is to help everyone understand that there is importance here. We are dealing at a level where the Datum really does matter and that we should endeavor to understand this as well as we can. We have a great opportunity in this forum to teach things in the correct way up front. I cannot affect how you chose to believe or remember, all I can do is tell you what we in the field feel is currently known and widely held as true. It does not seem beneficial to say what we have said and leave the general reader with the impression that NAD83=WGS84. It does not equal, not really, and since we are dealing with the differences even in discussion at a geodetic level, then I feel very not really. The understanding is safer when we just follow the age old advice of making sure you are working in the Datum on the Map or that which is listed as the correct Datum for the work we are doing, Rather than dumbing it down so that is is simple and easy. If it were simple and easy, we would not have the system we have. I trust that the Pros who work at that level wish it were simple too. Casey said earlier in this thread that the NAD83 Datum would be the preferred Datum. He has since reversed himself. As an Official employee of the NGS I wish he had stuck with his Agencies own Datum and the first thing he said. He is missing a wonderful opportunity to help his agency put to rest some widely held misconceptions about what the NGS and their Datums are for. Especially the one that points out why the NGS does not use WGS84 in the first place. The NGS developed and own NAD83. It is the only Horizontal Datum they currently use. At this level of thinking and activity, it is important to have a correct understanding. It is the right thing to do. Just my.02 Rob

AA9599... Nice Touch Dave! If the Power Sqdn Folks can find you I am sure these folks can! Geocachers seem to hate Not Founds! This would seem to be a guaranteed recovery! Rob

caseyb Posted on Apr 5 2005, 10:38 AM I digress. So Ah, Datum Schmatum, and Official NGS recovery now = geocaching. You can treat it the same as the game. For the record, This seems to be an interesting new NGS Sanctioned direction. I have always wanted to file an official not found on the Seattle Space Needle in the WGS72 Datum... Or, Whatever_Datum_I_Want! Just because I could. I was getting tired of walking the line, and Now I can! It isn't significant and No one will worry about it! Lucky Me! I wonder if it is healthy and happy? Is there a radio button for that on the Mark Recovery Entry Page? I feel so free! Ya think? Sure will make all this technical crap a lot easier. We no longer have to care! Now I can get back to my true focus of extolling the Virtues of red and white striped chaining pins! Yeah! Rob

Hi Patty, I am glad you asked this as it really is a common misconception. The way Casey addressed that is right on. The NGS is looking for us to do things a certain way, and for very good reason. "Also, isn't NAD83 the same as WGS84? I believe it's common for consumer-grade GPS receivers to use the latter, so perhaps you could say "use the NAD83/WGS84 datum" so that folks won't think they have to change models when they switch between geocaching and benchmark hunting." Nope, they are not the same, and at the geodetic level, very not the same. Sorry, People really need to change the Datum to do NGS work. And we need to educate this so people will know to toggle back and forth. Degrees Minutes and Seconds are the method NGS prefers to annotate as it is the way Survey instruments work. This is the age old method. It is best to work in the traditional way that survey equipment works. Please feel free to call me an alarmist Surveyor if you like. :-D I have written exhaustively against the use of the WGS 84 Datum for this work and if you look back through my posts on my user profile page you can read what I have said about it in a number of places. I have attempted to express what the differences are and why I feel this is a bad idea. I have a number of friends in the field, and some who work at NGS who agree. For a quick look, here is one I posted in the NGS Forum: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...dpost&p=1378019 I know that if we grab an FAA chart, it will say NAD83/WGS84 Datum. In an airplane it is close enough... They are dealing with large distances. Both datum are similar enough at that level to be the same. An airplane is way larger than the difference between datum. We unfortunately are not working in the same scale. We are dealing directly with the objects that help define what the NAD83 Datum is. Some are less than one centimeter accuracy. They are not expressed by WGS84 in any way, in fact expressing their location in WGS 84 would introduce error. There is a 1 meter difference between the two datum taken spherically in three dimensions, and at the level we work, it can make a difference. To the airplane that is the size of carry on baggage. It really would make a difference if and I say it could happen, if consumer gear were to become even more accurate than it is. You never know. Sorry, But the correct datum is not that hard to use, and important when doing NGS work. NAD83 is the only Datum. WGS84 will work for Geocaching and even for getting you close to the where of a Benchmark for playing the game, but the real Datum is the NGS owned and developed NAD83 Datum for use on their proprietary Survey Markers. Rob

Bill, Those are the regional forums I was thinking of, but how are we to know who might not enjoy this hobby as we do if they are never exposed to it? I bet a good many geocachers never come to the forums and when they do, they may never find time to look beyond what they find. This is not the front page forum. I would not want to prejudge this. Casey has come forth with a need and is just asking if we can fill it somehow? If they want to volunteer for such a project, there will be rules to follow and adhere to, as well as a learning curve. If they don't like rules then they won't want to volunteer as it would not make for a good relationship. It is no different than volunteering to paint my house. There is work involved and an expectation of a job done well. I will watch to see how well you do. If you come over to help and do poorly, well, I will probably stop the activity kindly and call it a day, maybe not ask you back tomorrow. No offense, just a bad match up. A Local success story is the USGS National Map Forum. I am not at all interested in it myself, but some people are! Imagine that! There is one different stroke eh? Some doing the Map work like benchmark hunting too, but there are quite a few posting there and working their quad who have never posted here! It really comes down to what will appeal to each of us. Different Strokes. To be sure, we had nothing to do with how good they are at completing a quad, and for those who never heard of benchmarks, well, we just don't know. Volunteer work is still work and there will be people who will overseeing things to see that criteria will be followed. There are people who enjoy volunteering and don't mind following instructions and direction. Some may become just like we are, people who found something they enjoy, just as we enjoy. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'd like to see it given a chance. Rob

Bill, I smile at your thoughts, I saw one at a farm supply while back and thought the same thing, but a probe with foot assist is likely to be the kind of probe that could do damage. Can you imagine a 250 lb jump on that probe because there is something hard down there? Yikes! I think if we hit something hard, we carefully dig to learn what it is, not see if we can force our way though it. I am not saying you would but Murphy's law uniformly applies. Someone could, and we don't want that. When I have to help locate a Fiber optic conduit, the Industry procedure is to survey out the area where the plan says it is supposed to be, then a call a Locator. That person comes out and meets with me. I show them where I want them to look and they home in with their equipment and will flag it out with paint or sticks, However I ask. Then I call a Vac Truck outfit to come in on the sticks and suck the dirt out of the ground in little holes until the can see the actual pipe. Then we take 2 inch PVC pipe cut to sit on top of the buried conduit and stick a foot or so out of the ground so we can tape measure from the conduit to the top of the pipe to the buried Conduit, and then from the top of the pipe to the ground. The difference will tell us how deep we can safely dig with a machine without hitting the conduits. Is it this big of a deal? Yup! Fiber Optic outages are some of the costliest mistakes in the world. When you are digging near the Main Trunk line that services the Microsoft Campus in Redmond Washington, Like I was, the bill for that outage could be even higher, and we just don't want to know how high. I fear the difference is between being fired and Summarily Shot in Public in that case. "we interrupt to bring you breaking news... The MSN Network is down this eve because a couple guys dug a hole in Redmond Washington today, where upon they ran away and were last seen screaming wildly that they had to hide before someone handed them the bill. Police Have confiscated all their equipment and will sell it all at auction to help cover the costs of repair and the outage. It may take days to get the internet back to normal, News at 11..." Please do not think I am kidding. It does seem humorous, if only it really were... :-D Then there are all the other underground utilities, and some have no other locator than "Be careful!" I know professional, Conscientious Excavator hands who can dig up anything without even trying... They have a disadvantage of a lot of power and no feeling when they dig so it sometimes happens. Even when as careful as we can be and we try as we may, the locates are not always right, or something else happens. But we benchmark hunters can be careful, we just probe and dig by hand and carefully, and though it is true we may dig a few empty holes and don't go as deep, it is better than forcing a foot assisted probe through a plastic, yellow, medium pressure Natural Gas line. Forcibly probing a direct buried Electrical wire could be our last act on Earth. It is good to remember that not every thing ever buried was buried the way we think it should have been. Many things are closer to the surface than we think, or would like to believe. Enjoy! Rob

Casey, I am not sure we have any benchmark hunters, at least that we know of here in the forums working in Wisconsin, though I wish there was. I can tell you that there are people here in this forum who would be willing and interested in the states they do live in. When you say this: "Probably not. But we will see. If this takes off in WI, I might be able to get some other stuff going in other Height Mod. states. Has anyone responded to this?" I fear the idea could go to the scrap heap for lack of a participant in Wisconsin. I think we can save the baby and the bath water though. Can we try a state or a couple states where there are willing Volunteers? You have a Bunch near you in DC and surrounding area, Some in North Carolina, California, Michigan, Ohio, Colorado, Montana and so on. Who knows who is willing to volunteer, But I have never seen any in N.Dakota, or Alabama, or Wyoming, Oklahoma... And I am sorry if I am in error and there are people there. Even still, We are a relatively small group. No matter what state we are from. Some do this but never speak of it. Unfortunately we have not got ton of benchmark hunters who can congregate like the Geocacher players do. We almost always have to go it alone. We are a smaller market segment I fear. Maybe if you were to ask who the people are who would be interested in participating in projects like this in either paid or unpaid capacities, and learned in which and where in what state they live, Perhaps that you could go to those states and tell them I have X volunteers in your state you would like to participate... I bet there are people drooling over this opportunity but regret they don't have such and opportunity close to home. Who knows, It may generate an interest in such a state when they learn there are people willing to become involved in this sort of work. There is a regional forum here at Groundspeak, I wonder if someone posted that there is a need for paid benchmark hunters in that regional forum which covers Wisconsin if it would see better fishing action? Seems worth a try! If you want such a list, I am sure that there will be volunteers come forth to let you know. and perhaps they should email this personal data rather than post it here publicly? In any case, I think the committee of the willing will answer you :-) Just a few thoughts Casey. Let us know how you feel on this. Rob

Billionhunter, There is a lot of info here in the Forum on how to go about hunting these things, Feel free to take a look back! Blackdog raised a point we discussed while back as well... "There's also the bizarre situation where some surveyors used 0 degrees to mean South! No way of knowing which it is for your PID. A casual look around on location will tell you, of course." We worked that problem in this thread: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...wtopic=81352&hl Now it is a really long thread but well worth the read, But for the sake of saving time, the lowdown on Geodetic azimuths, which is why those surveyors used Bizarre methods back in the day is in there, Just scroll about half way down and try picking it up from there. It is a very technical thread. Looking at the datasheet for your stations, all the RM's were called out in the narrative in Cardinal directions, Not bearings, The Box score compares with the Grid Azimuth so if these had use the old Geodetic Azimuth at one time, it appears to have been corrected in the data. LW3513'REFERENCE MARK NO. 1 IS A STANDARD DISK STAMPED LW3513'HERRING-1937-NO. 1 WEDGED IN A DRILL HOLE, IN OUT CROPPING LW3513'BEDROCK, ABOUT 2 FEET LONG AND 1 FOOT WIDE. IT IS 73.00 FEET LW3513'NORTH OF STATION. LW3513| CB7769 HERRING RM 1 22.244 METERS 00547 | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REFERENCE MARK NO. 2 IS A STANDARD DISK LW3513'STAMPED HERRING-1937-NO. 2 WEDGED IN A DRILL HOLE, IN OUTCROPPING LW3513'BEDROCK, ABOUT 3 FEET LONG AND 2 FEET WIDE. IT IS 64.10 FEET LW3513'NORTHEAST OF STATION. LW3513| CB7770 HERRING RM 2 19.542 METERS 07009 | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REFERENCE MARK NO. 3 IS A STANDARD DISK LW3513'STAMPED HERRING-1937-NO. 3 WEDGED IN A DRILL HOLE, IN LW3513'OUTCROPPING BEDROCK, ABOUT 4 FEET LONG AND 3 FEET WIDE. IT IS LW3513'79.68 FEET SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF STATION. LW3513| CB7771 HERRING RM 3 24.296 METERS 16923 | I concur with everything based off grid N Azimuth, and not a possible Geodetic azimuth of South. This First order Station was primarily surveyed using a Bilby Tower. LW3513'HEIGHT OF LIGHT ABOVE STATION MARK 13.4 METERS. First Time. LW3513'HEIGHT OF LIGHT ABOVE STATION MARK 18 METERS. Second Time. LW3513'HEIGHT OF LIGHT ABOVE STATION MARK 60 FEET. Third Time And the fourth time... LW3513'THE RIDGE ON WHICH THE STATION IS LOCATED IS NOW HEAVILY WOODED, LW3513'AND THE USE OF TOWERS OR SELECTIVE CUTTING WOULD BE NEEDED TO USE LW3513'THE STATION MARK. To convert meters to feet, divide the number of meters by.3048 to get feet. Reverse the bearing to the RM's 180 degrees to find your way fromm the RM's to the Station Mark Enjoy! Rob

Hey Matt, I do have a set of Chaining Pins, They were $20 for the set at Forestry Suppliers, but I have found that the handle of a screwdriver is a lot easier and comfortable on my hands when trying to push them through Rocky or Hard soil conditions, so my go to tool is the screwdriver. I don't even mind tapping them in with a hammer if needed. I reach for it first because it offered the most pleasant experience and seems to work about as well. I just stab the end of the loop on the tape through the screwdriver and on into the ground. It will not come loose unless the screwdriver pulls out. If you think the chaining pins are cool, buy them. I use them on a long stretch of measuring where it may be to my benefit to leave a place marker for that measurement it the ground for a bit while I determine other solutions. In most cases the measurements are not so distant that I need to break chain, which is to put a place holder in the ground so I can move the measuring device, (in the old days, a chain) up to the next stretch to be measured. Sometimes what I begin with a screwdriver, which I may replace with a chaining pin as well, but for the most part, the Screwdrivers get the most use from me, I just like the feel of them better, so that is what I use. I suppose R_C and his longer screwdriver may see a dual duty tool as both a probe and a chaining pin, and how cool is that? :-) I guess we all develop a fondness for a tool or a method which works for us, and even something which is supposed to be an improvement doesn't always bring the feel good feeling that we thought it would... And so it goes. I started with screwdrivers years ago, and I still like them :-) Some people like hunting these with a Palm Pilot and a GPS, But my favored way is the Datasheet on Paper, a tape and a screwdriver. Mostly :-) Rob

Yeah Matt, I am way High Tech on you this time! Not really, you have me beat by miles! I went to a Hardware store and bought a 3 foot 1/4 rod and ground a point on one end with a bench grinder. Bent the other side into a handle on my bench vice... I think I may duct tape a softer handle on it though. Heheheh The sticky tape and bent steel solution. My Tape anchors are a couple of Stanley screwdrivers I bought at a Pawn shop for pocket change! I mean why lose something spendy? I am basically using junk. Er, Old Junk. Yup, that old broken screwdriver now has a home R_C! Gotta love that Low Budget action! I think you have me beat on the $25 fork collection! :-D But really, I think you should use what feels good in your hand and works for the way you like to hunt. BDT uses a piece of bent wire for a probe. Ultimately, what ever works for you is what works period. Rob

kc2ixe, Ahhh Ok, Bring Money. Oh and don't forget to share some with us here too! Your GPS will need to be able to interpret your signal. Of course non hams will not really be able to play. I'd write the FCC for further interpretation. The other brand of signal is proprietary DOD and not for use on Ham Bands. But you are welcome to try what you like. Blackdog, In the way you think of the Coast Guard DGPS, Yes WAAS is taking it's purpose over, as WAAS is post Selective Availability where DGPS was Pre and meant to help Boats stay out of harm's way, But please remember that DGPS as a concept is not dead. I do use it in my work, and I do set up DGPS Bases for use in my work for Local control. It is not the Coast Guard service, but it serves the purpose for local correction without atmospheric distortion. Rob

kc2ixe, A quick look... Sec. 97.113 Prohibited transmissions. (a) No amateur station shall transmit: (1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part; (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules; (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest, including communications on behalf of an employer. Amateur operators may, however, notify other amateur operators of the availability for sale or trade of apparatus normally used in an amateur station, provided that such activity is not conducted on a regular basis; (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification; (5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services. (B ) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that communications directly related to the immediate safety of human life or the protection of property may be provided by amateur stations to broadcasters for dissemination to the public where no other means of communication is reasonably available before or at the time of the event. (C ) A control operator may accept compensation as an incident of a teaching position during periods of time when an amateur station is used by that teacher as a part of classroom instruction at an educational institution. (d) The control operator of a club station may accept compensation for the periods of time when the station is transmitting telegraphy practice or information bulletins, provided that the station transmits such telegraphy practice and bulletins for at least 40 hours per week; schedules operations on at least six amateur service MF and HF bands using reasonable measures to maximize coverage; where the schedule of normal operating times and frequencies is published at least 30 days in advance of the actual transmissions; and where the control operator does not accept any direct or indirect compensation for any other service as a control operator. (e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and originated from United States Government stations and communications, including incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a space shuttle and its associated Earth stations. Prior approval for shuttle retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators. Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal amateur radio communications. (f) No amateur station, except an auxiliary, repeater, or space station, may automatically retransmit the radio signals of other amateur station. [58 FR 43072, Aug. 13, 1993; 58 FR 47219, Sept. 8, 1993] I mean, you can see where you would be pushing your luck. a5 and section e kind of look bad if you know what I mean. You could argue it, But Hollingsworth rarely smiles as you know :-) DGPS sigs are already broadcast, and so this would be a Broadcast, and Hams are not legally allowed to be broadcasters. Retransmission of a broadcast is well, Broadcasting. They do let forth where it would be allowed but this is not one. GMRS is Part 95 and that is a different radio service with different rules. If you like the part 97 is here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx...47cfr97_00.html Part 95: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx...47cfr95_00.html The rest of the story is that the DGPS broadcast is at a known horizontal and vertical location and has a time signal which syncs up like the satellite constellation does in the receiver. This time relation over distance and direction has to emanate from the source, and synch with the birds. if it does not, then it tells a lie because it will be one, late, and two, not coming from where it says it is supposed to be , so the telemetry you think is no longer the telemetry you get. Besides, this is not the telemetry that the FCC had in mind for Hams. Telemetry for Hams is about the remote control of radio stations. Their own stations in their licensed frequency allotment. Enjoy. And Congrats on the Extra ticket :-) Rob

kc2ixe, You are correct that there is or was DGPS available on some models, Consumer Models. WAAS is very high accuracy on an aircraft, Higher than consumer. DGPS on a surveyors GPS is very high accuracy, but in consumer grade gear the accuracy is limited. What I am saying is this. Consumer grade accuracy is limited. It don't matter what you do. Buy DGPS and WAAS and you get what you get. They are broadcasting the accuracy but you cannot see it beyond your equipment's limitations. Consumer grade accuracy from consumer grade Equipment. if you want to play, they make you pay. It is not legal for you to rebroadcast a DGPS signal over you ham frequencies and I think you will find that Part 97. Sorry, and besides, it wouldn't help you enough to matter. Any Consumer grade gear is stopping at 5 foot accuracy. Really. You have a really fun idea but it simply is not possible. Not yet. You GPS 60c already has a signal coming to it which would get you there from here if the unit could get there from here. But here we are. You could look for used Survey gear, but even that is very spendy, and the learning curve on it is steep. I cannot express to you how happy I am that I do not pay the bill for it to go in the shop and oh yeah, it goes in the shop! Believe me, if there was such a cool toy to be had reasonably, It would be on my wish list. I wait patiently. :-) Rob

You said it well Matt, NAVD 88 is a Vertical Datum, NAD 83 is a Horizontal Datum. A GPSr is not concerned with Vertical datum. It will only help us locate things Horizontally. I have a GPS Elevation capability on my eTrex Vista, But I consider it a ball park estimate at best. In fact, I rarely even look at that feature. It is a nearly hidden nested menu as it is. Generally speaking, Our mental note to ourselves is just that when we see that the Horizontal NAD 83 Control has been SCALED, We automatically check to verify if the Station's primary purpose is for Vertical control. It tells us we are dealing with a Bench Mark, Not a Triangulation Station or some other control. That is all. Then we can see if we can improve upon the scaled location with our GPSr. The aforementioned thinking is sound in most cases, but there are exceptions such as stations which have been given both kinds of control via GPS in the modern day, or Both kinds of control via Optical methods and leveling. I have also seen Old Tri Stations which were given only a vertical update Via GPS, and the opposite holds that some Bench Marks have been given Horizontal Control as well. This is the case I make, It is fine if all we want is to use the basic information that the Geocaching pages give us, but we can know more, much more if we use the datasheet. Of course Geocaching makes their older copy of that available and much of what we will want will be on it, but the best data is always a comparison of the NGS Datasheet and the Geocaching site to see if anyone else has found it. Time is a funny thing that plays on Data... There are 2 marks at a beach front park in Seattle that have been recovered by geocachers. A recent City Parks Sponsored remodel of buildings in this park took out a Station disc which had been in a sidewalk, and a flagpole which had been near the remodeled Building. Both were Third order horizontal and one was a landmark. I have them as not founds. But there was a geocacher find on them. Now, no one else will ever recover them either, and I have updated this at NGS. I could have the Flagpole destroyed in the NGS Database, and am considering doing that, but the Station Disc which is now gone will be eternally not found. It was excavated when the old sidewalk was broken off and hauled off. Depending on how you approach these 2 stations in the future, and depending on what I do in the end, a person may have to look at both Geocaching and NGS to know the full history. NGS will never tell you how many Geocachers did find these before they were lost, but Geocaching will never show the removal of the destroyed Landmark. It seems to be a good practice to look it all over, but the best, most up to date source for meaningful info is the NGS Datasheet. Oh, And Zhanna's Site is Cool! Good luck! Rob

Hi Mike, Quite often I would be running DGPS between my base set up and Coast Guard signals. I try to set my base up over control I have in GIS and is loaded into the gear. Often it is based on what the office has used to work up the job in the first place. They go with local control that they get from County, City, PLSS, Geodetic, whatever. Often the Local Counties are Running OPUS, Some are running CORS and fix their own control to that. In Platt development, we go with what the local municipality wants for Datum, especially when the work will be deeded to them upon completion. Sometimes it is found that NAD 27 fits the PLSS locally better than NAD 83 will and the developer make a political decision. They do not to ruffle too many people over the moving property line thing. Most of the PLSS is done in the office on these and they become points in the GIS, Those points are loaded and I go stake them. For Instance, let's say Point 2763 is a Property corner for Lot 17, and so I stake it, and write the point number as well as the proper nomenclature for the stake. It may include a Lot grade on the point so I drive a Hub and calc the cut or fill to lot grade, and write that on the other side of the Lath. It all corresponds to the building site plan. Most of the time I am on the rover is Construction Staking. Sometimes, when alone, I can get the accuracy I need without a local base if the DGPS Sigs I get from Coast Guard are good. But you know how that is. the closer you are the better, and hilly conditions can decrease the DGPS Sig quality quickly. Often you just set up the base anyway as you know it will be needed no matter what. I often have GPS running in the Heavy Equipment at some sites, which means a base with what is essentially many rovers, and with difficult terrain it sometimes takes a Permanent base, (temporary permanent, and then I will have to set up another base (tripod) to augment where the main Bases cannot see. The more differential signal you have the better it is, and that is iffy if you don't set up a local base. I have run into situations in hilly situations and late in the afternoon that even with a Base set up, I cannot get enough signal from the Constellation to do my work and I have to go optical. The DGPS is fine but the constellation won't provide an adequate solution. I may have to Augment GPS with construction staking in difficult places as well. I can rove with optical too if I have good local monuments, so I can still go it alone. If not then it is the old fashioned 2 man show. Other things I may do on large jobs is hop on a quad runner and go take a bunch of readings around the site to topo the thing. We are always needed to help keep track of how the material balances are going on the Cut/fill ratios, as well as materials which may need to either leave and come on to the site. We collect the data and take it back, they load it is the GIS and compare. It gives them an idea as to where the dirt is and if costs are in control. We just do what we have to to get it done. The ultimate solution is the one that works. Rob

Hi Dave, Unfortunately the monumenting narrative was omitted from the datasheet. It is an old station to be sure, but beings that this is a drill hole in a rock that the Monumentation is in, and based on the History of the Industrial Age, the original Monumentation was not the disc. The Steel Industry was young, this era was very pre internal combustion and electrical power, so I imagine the disc we see in your recovery picture was placed at the time of the 1939 recovery. I do wonder how it was defined prior to receiving the disc. In any case it is an old survey. There is one error in the datasheet though. The Narrative calls this a Second order mark, but it is listed as a Third. It is possible this was not an error really, there was a time when the CGS or NGS redefined the methodology for defining Order and that re definition may have been a factor in causing this station to be downgraded to third order. Interesting. Thanks! Rob

Klemmer, Oh Yeah, those landscape architects can GIS Map the dirt down to the last weed if they want :-D Then they can give you a punch list of which plants they want you to pull... How is that for micromanagement? Rob

R_C, Sorry, No Notes at the NGS site, and besides, they are looking for the Station Mark. There is no useful survey data ascribed to the RM on this one, It is simply there to help you find the REAL station. :-) Knowing an RM's status would be inconsequential to them if they do not have specific data ascribed to them. Interestingly, this is a rare occasion where a Third order Station Had an Azimuth Mark. 2 RM's on Third Order Control is a rare thing too. It is common for them to have no RM's or maybe one. The way I see it, you have some options, and challenges, if you like that sort of thing. This one is not a slam dunk easy station so you can skip it because it is difficulty, But I would not file a not found with NGS because you did not actually try to find the actual station. If you file a Not Found, it will in effect cause no one else to look ever again, and it very well may be there just as the Geodetic Surveyors say, Buried under at least a foot of soil. It is sort of a not found for you at geocaching if you never go back, because you attempted and decided not to find it. But your note does say what you did found, and your note will be a place holder for you while you decide if you are done looking. If You want it, Build a Probe and bring a long Tape measure and a shovel, get permission if you need to and try to find all for monuments. 3 out of 4 were found in previous recoveries, and for all we know until we try, the azimuth mark may be there too. It is true that just because a previous party did not find something, that you may find it anyway. Once you hunt, reporting whatever you do find is worth your while if that is what you want to do, but for now, the last recovery of the station is the best information going. Good Luck! Rob

Bill, It can stabilize out, and with an RTK GPS Setup, I may set the main unit up in the clear and then go in to the covered area with the rover. It is a DGPS set up in a local manner. I have surveyed deep fill rockeries to be built with heavy woods adjacent to them totally barring the rover from seeing the constellation with that set up, just as an example. Further the Pro gear has Larger Antennas with much higher gain, and computer processing that dwarfs what a GPSr has... In addition, the antennas are often mounted on a range pole like set up, where I can telescopically raise the antenna up a bit to perhaps improve it's view. Then all I have to do is tell the computer the difference between the Antenna Height and the ground, or if you will, the length of the pole. They are the same thing but that is also the effect it has. In any case the computer now knows where the ground is supposed to be if I was accurate in telling it. In other applications There are D-9 Cat Dozers outfitted with GPS systems that cut grade at full throttle in 2nd gear with GPS telling the operator where the blade needs to be. To the operator it is like watching TV as they do the Job. We still have to keep that Cat knowing where the grade is at when the woods are trying to clutter the view. In other word there are problem areas and we have to find ways to mitigate them. This is an example from Trimble of a unit that a modern Surveyor uses all the time in many shops... Leica makes Fine equipment too, and I use what I am given. This is just one unit, not the whole set up in any number of configurations, and configurations vary. http://www.trimble.com/5700.shtml If I were trying to do a geodetic survey it could take 2-3 long days of basically setting up over the station and watching the unit while it does it's data collecting. The Unit has a couple days to look at the satellites in the full constellation over a period of time, and since there is always movement in the constellation we get a lot of triangulated solutions. In any set up where GPS is a doable at a location to survey, we want to have a look at birds that are low on the horizon. The incidental angles are large, not obtuse and we get the best solutions from this. This set of photos is showing this setup during the waiting game. Artman, If you do not know if a location is GPS observable and want to use "don't know" as a fall back, that is fine. I am not insisting a thing, but I am attempting to expose you and others to a situation where it looked iffy but was doable, and I feel that the season had a lot to do with it. We all have strengths in the way we learn. There is a percentage of people out there who learn from examples and that was an example photo of a location that had some problems yet got the job done and the photos illustrated some of the background environment. I simply shared my thoughts on this example as there has been discussion in other threads concerning what constitutes an adequate site for GPS OBS. If anyone gains a little better understanding, then it served the purpose. Rob

Cudalike, Everyone here gave you great advice, there is not much I can add. But if you like, and can figure out who owns or is responsible for the tower, they will have records for it and will be able to verify your questions. The FAA, FCC and other agencies will require it, and there are other records. There is likely an employee responsible for keeping after the tower's needs as well and they will have access to the info which will detail the history of the Tower. Good Luck and thanks for wondering! Rob

No worries everyone! Just because the NGS websites are not working this weekend, and that they seem to be off line from time to time, it really is not a Big deal, and there is nothing we can do about it. Most IT departments are aware when things are not working. In this case we were given notice, and it really isn't a big deal, Just enjoy the weekend and Have Fun Anyway! Go Outside, Buy a new piece of benchmark equipment, Download a datasheet from the Geocaching Site instead, Make a more comfortable handle for your benchmark probe, re-calibrate your Compass, Get a massage... Plant Tomatoes or Clean up the car! You Know! BBQ, Even if it is raining! That Ol' website will be along soon enough! Rob

FYI, NGS had posted on their web site that they planned on being off line this weekend, the first weekend in April, and this may already be the case. They have things they are doing to their system and will be back after the weekend. So try and enjoy the outage as best you can. Rob

R_C, Soon you will be driving around, and thinking of all the ones you know you are driving by, and the status you found them in, if they were gone, Hard to find, if they were landmarks now long since gone, and many are... many are still there or seem like it but may be not the original, some are famous, and in great locations, you will go to Neighborhoods, Great Views, Poor views... Places you might have never gone otherwise, and that is the reason, well one of them, that I like to go. Why Not? Enjoy the challenges! Rob