G & C

What evidence do you have that we are counterparts, and why would that matter anyway? This statement seems designed to shut down a legitimate debatable discussion posted in a thread that is solely designed to discuss the nuances of geocoins. I started this thread and the only person I have ever met that has also replied in this thread is the original coin owner who stated his preference about the entire issue. The only other coiner who has posted that I have had any relationship with (due to playing geocoin fantasy football) has a counter opinion to mine (and she presented her views very well) That said I don't think who knows who really matters in this discussion as long as it remains a discussion that is civil and debates the actual points presented. Feel free to support your friends and geo buddies, but please present a logical argument. In fairness, I am the one who made the original statement regarding counterparts. And the only reason I brought it up was to combine the fact with another that was pointed out earlier about another group of log deleters from (I believe) Ohio, and that the practice of deleting logs without reason seems to be localized in groups for some reason or another.

No you haven't. I've met one person who has posted in this thread. The rest I don't know from Adam. The same can't be said for you, and you are correct that it does not minimize your point of view. It does seem to localize it, however, which was my only point to begin with. Yes I can make the Same Assertion as you. And being I am from Oregon (BTW,the birthplace of geocaching) maybe my point should carry more weight. J/K of course. I'm not sure I understand this. You can make what same assertion as I can?

No you haven't. I've met one person who has posted in this thread. The rest I don't know from Adam. The same can't be said for you, and you are correct that it does not minimize your point of view. It does seem to localize it, however, which was my only point to begin with.

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so. The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made. Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon. In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin. OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...? ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO! Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever. That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die. I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point? The point is - I do not have to convince you or anybody else as I am not asking for a rule change, you are. I prefer it to stay the way it is. and far as I am concerned you have not convinced me that it should change because the issue is not vast enough, not everyone removes logs only a very small few do this and from what I have read they are only discovery logs from events nothing more so this to me does not warrant a rule change. Cool. Point taken. You don't want a rule change. I'm not really sure why, if you have things the way you want them, that you continue to post here and stir the hornets nest. Don't get me wrong, it's fine by me. I appreciate you sounding the rally cry for the vast majority that agree with the need for a rule change on this issue. I'm just not sure how it's helping from your perspective. From my side, I just like to debate. These issues are fun for me, IF there's an actual argument to the contrary. That's what I'm trying to find from you, or one of your Oregon counterparts randomly taking part in this thread, one at a time.

I think the "cheap" comment was already discussed and apologized for, so I would hope we don't need to continue to address that. You make a very good point though. The one who purchases the coin, be it new or used, does "pay for" the icon. I also recognize your right to request that YOUR coins not be discovered at events. They're your coins and you have the right to request that. However, in the game of geocaching and in extension, geocoining...discovering IS allowed and a reward IS granted for doing so. The 'Cheap' comment may have been addressed already, but I felt that my view point needed to be made. Also, The tracking #'s were added to geocoins a few years back at the pleasure of the geocoin owner so they could benefit from watching it being moved by other geocachers. This original idea was strictly for the geocoin owner and not the person that moved it and the original icons for coins were all the same, generic. When the unique Icon was developed and introduced it pretty much created a monster with geocachers wanting to collect these tiny pics. But in reality, the geocoin is owned and so is that icon. In The original content of this thread it was stated that the only logs removed were discovery logs at a single event. That coin never moved again. With discovery logging at events, alot times the loggers have never really seen the item, they just received a tracking # list to log, and never saw the coin and did not even know what they were logging. The owner of these coins should have the option to get rid of these logs when purchasing an activated coin. OK then, how do you differentiate between those who never saw the geocoin and those who picked it up and turned it over and over in their fingers for several minutes muttering "Wow" "Great geocoin"...? ETA - the later certainly deserve the icon IMO! Well, the NEW owner would not know this, but it should still be Their Option to keep or remove these logs. You are getting upset with the new owner but they are not the ones getting rid of these coins, maybe before logging a coin at an event you should ask the owner if they plan on keeping this coin forever. That's not feasible. If you want to change peoples minds, you need to come up with something that's at the very least reasonable. Things happen. Folks lose jobs. Guys stop geocaching. People die. I'm still wishing and waiting for one solid reason to come up for continuing to allow deleted logs of the regular variety. Not the mistake logs, not the editing of logs, but the deletion of rightful discovery logs for no apparent reason. It's fine if you want to argue your point, but what exactly is your point?

Most of the time, a single DNF doesn't deter me. Like you said though, several usually will.

Thank you very much yanagi, your coin is beautiful, and I appreciate both of the great coins that you sent. It's like Christmas in February!

It sounds like you want geocoins to be handled in the same manner as geocaches, which is what we've been looking for. Owners have the final say, in that they can remove their listing at any time. But if their coin/cache is a part of the site, then etiquette has to be followed, meaning no deleted logs without sufficient reason, ie proof of fake log, virtual logging, etc..

I know. It can be a blessing and a curse. But when coin owners go "changing" logs, a lot of people want to "change" the rules, which is why we have this thread here. It's a good discussion, at any rate.

I think we all wish that. But apparently people aren't acting what the community as a whole, or even a majority, would consider responsible with the freedoms they have, hence the desire for change.

Those discover logs were not just minor entries on a webpage. They legitimately credited an icon to the loggers in question, added a stat to their Trackables tab and became a part of their geocaching history. When the logs were deleted, the icons were removed, the numbers reduced and a piece of their history for that geocaching day was removed. For me, that's a problem I would like to see GS address. I don't favor any rules "removing the ultimate freedom of ownership regarding coins/tbs", but I do favor guidelines that would protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game. I agree with Geominions, The problem is not vast enough to warrant More Rules and Guidelines that will take away ownership rights on coins/tb's I'm not trying to make this sound like your opinion doesn't matter, because it of course does, but you have 0 finds, have seen 0 trackables, and own 0 trackables. What experience with the differences between log types do you have to give you such an opinion? I see you have 2 posts, both of which have been made on this topic. Where does your knowledge on the subject stem from? These are just a couple of honest questions. I have a geocaching ID and a Forum ID - which is stated so on my profile. I have been geocaching for quite some time and moved and discovered several hundred coin/tb's Yea, I saw that you just added that. Thanks for the reply.

Those discover logs were not just minor entries on a webpage. They legitimately credited an icon to the loggers in question, added a stat to their Trackables tab and became a part of their geocaching history. When the logs were deleted, the icons were removed, the numbers reduced and a piece of their history for that geocaching day was removed. For me, that's a problem I would like to see GS address. I don't favor any rules "removing the ultimate freedom of ownership regarding coins/tbs", but I do favor guidelines that would protect EVERYONE'S rights in this game. I agree with Geominions, The problem is not vast enough to warrant More Rules and Guidelines that will take away ownership rights on coins/tb's I'm not trying to make this sound like your opinion doesn't matter, because it of course does, but you have 0 finds, have seen 0 trackables, and own 0 trackables. What experience with the differences between log types do you have to give you such an opinion? I see you have 2 posts, both of which have been made on this topic. Where does your knowledge on the subject stem from? These are just a couple of honest questions.

There are lots of ways to make decent proxies, but keep in mind that some people are uncompromising on the issue. No matter how close the replica, it won't be good enough for some. People get very heated on this topic, so be aware of that as well. I highly recommend that if you are going to release a proxy, you change the title of the coin to reflect that it's a proxy. That all said, I found one about a week ago that was made out of clay. Not much larger than the actual coin, but very well done out of clay, and sort of 3-D-ish. I was pretty impressed. Others have been photos of the coin in a coin case, so that it looks like the real coin in the case. I've moved along a LOT of laminated paper copies, but I don't know how long those last. I've also found some really bad one, including one that was simply a folded up piece of notebook paper in a plastic baggy, with the coin name and tracking number written in pen. Pretty lame.

Is this actually done? Doesn't the buyer expect an adoption request? And if an adoption doesn't happen, there wouldn't be a new owner trying to wipe the slate clean...right? No, without an adoption you can't do much of anything but move and/or discover the coin. There is definitely a concern about buying stolen coins on eBay, as I found out with three coins I bought from the same seller when I first started collecting geocoins. In the end, I had to report the seller to eBay and I sent the coins back to their rightful owners.

Visited logs, as far as I use them anyway, are for tracking mileage only. If I'm writing a log and posting pics, I drop the coin in the cache. Rarely is there a log attached to a visited log from me.

Speaking as someone who moves a good deal of TBs and GCs, I did appreciate Groundspeaks addition of the "visited" button. But I don't use it for every cache I visit. I can easily see how that would get irritating for someone more interested in details about the places that the coin or TB visited. If I'm caching in an area and have a TB with me, typically I pick the best cache (or two if there's some real good ones) and dip it into that one. If I have a story to tell, it gets dropped and picked up so that the TB owner gets the log in an email. If not, I just let it visit, and save myself the time of having to pick it back up.

Sure. "I dropped the bug in the wrong cache, how do I fix it?" The inability to delete logs causes tracking problems. Excellent point. Again, I don't think we're looking for a removal of the ability for a coin owner to delete logs. I think we're just looking for Groundspeak to develop a policy that makes the deleting of legitimate grabs and discover logs against the rules. Similar to the way they handle caches. Understood, but cache log deletion and reinstatement is a very different animal when compared to travelers. Other than the stats that each log carries with it, how so?

Sure. "I dropped the bug in the wrong cache, how do I fix it?" The inability to delete logs causes tracking problems. Excellent point. Again, I don't think we're looking for a removal of the ability for a coin owner to delete logs. I think we're just looking for Groundspeak to develop a policy that makes the deleting of legitimate grabs and discover logs against the rules. Similar to the way they handle caches.

Yes, any of the following trackable log types should never be deleted: -Retrieve -Grab -Drop -Discover Any others I'm missing? Any deprecated/obsolete ones? There definitely needs to be some facility to prevent deletion of these, or at least notification of deletion and the possibility to appeal to appeals@geocaching.com for restoral like there is for cache logs. Personally, I would equate the "visit" trackable log to the "note" cache log as far as importance. Neither affect any stats, and for the most part no harm is done if one is deleted. The other log types absolutely affect stats, and so should never be deleted (unless proven to be bogus, inappropriate, etc.). Keep in mind we need to maintain accurate tracking through log deletion and the ability for the owner to delete bogus logs. Can you define what you mean by accurate tracking?

Momster, I sat and typed out a reply to what you wrote earlier, and I have no idea what happened to it. There was nothing in it that would have warranted deleting, so maybe I just never hit the post button. My apologies, it is an interesting topic. I'm not entirely sure that I agree that its history is inaccurate as a result of the way that it's logged. The coin did indeed start in Texas, and got its start there. And then, if I'm understanding it correctly, it actually was in California. So it did go from Texas to California, although not via geocaching/geocacher. Truth be told, and as I've stated in the other thread on this same topic, I'm not advocating for coin owners to never be able to delete logs and manipulate their coins. I'm just against deleting logs that put the coin with a cacher, be it discoveries or moving logs. So long as something is left that keeps the coin with that cacher, the rest should continue to be up to the coin owner. The other example that was brought up was a whole bunch of (what the coin owner considered) useless "took it to" logs, and whether or not those should be allowed to be deleted. That, I could care less about. The only thing that will be affected by that is the coins mileage. As long as the discovery logs are left alone, and the "grabbed it" logs are left alone, the rest really should be up to the coin owner.

What about twelve PAGES of bland "took it to" logs on three of my TBs one cacher "dipped" in over 100 caches? Why should I not delete those? I ask that question in another forum topic: Twelve PAGES of "dips" - why not delete them? My main concern revolves around the "grabbed" and "discovered" logs that affect people other than the coins owner. I don't see how deleting those "took it to" logs would make a difference to anyone but the coin owner, so unless I'm missing something, I'm ok with it. But removing a person from the coins history altogether is what I'd like to see put to an end.

So it is what I thought it was. There is no rationale here to the opposing side of this argument. Now it's spite, as is made evident by the last post made by GeoMinion, but even before that, it was simply "because." No good, decent, rational reason. I, for one, am glad that we got this hashed out.

I'm confused. I've never seen or heard of anything like this, and I can't think of any reason to do this. If a coin owner doesn't want any logs on their coin, why did they release it? The discussion in question revolves around people purchasing activated geocoins, and then deleting all of the logs that they have attached to them. Trying to re-write history, as they say.

I have tried to explain it to you and everybody else. If I buy or trade for a pre-activated coin I first check to see how many logs are on it, I will ask the previous owner what kind of logs are on it. If there are none, which is what I prefer, I am more interested and if there only a few discovery logs then I will consider purchasing it. I like coins that I can start out anew, no logs so if I can delete a few discovery logs to make the coin mine then I will do it. I set a new start date on the coin and a new place of origin and erase it's history. I then hold onto the coin for awhile before releasing a proxy. I do have a few coins that I have purchased that already have proxies and are traveling, I knew this when I bought them and would not erase their history because they have a real history, not just one single event with a few discoveries. Ok, I have read this three times now, to make sure I understand it. Now, please answer this: what is the problem with the coin having prior discover logs? How does that affect the way the geocoin is perceived, the way it travels, or the way that it is discovered? Why do you want them gone so badly that you are willing to anger and/or upset those whose logs get deleted, prompting a discussion the magnitude of one that this has become?

I wouldn't have thought that a rule on something so simple would have been necessary, but apparently it is. People deleting rightful moved and discovered logs, just because they want their coin to have a clean slate? That's not right. I've heard it equated to many things, but the one that made the most sense was comparing it to rolling back the odometer on your car. It certainly looks like there are less miles on your car, but there really aren't less miles on your car. Deleting a history of rightfully earned logs takes away from geocoins as a whole, not to mention those geocachers who really enjoy collecting the icons from coins that they've seen. It seems to me that there is nothing gained by the deletion of geocoin logs, yet there is something lost. And the something lost, as we have found out in the geocoin forum over the last day or two, is pretty important to a good number of people. I'd like to see Groundspeak adopt a policy for geocoins similar to the policy they have on logs for geocaches. Geocaches belong to the owner, but the owner can not delete rightful found logs for no reason. This is the what you agree to when you decide to make your geocache a part of Groundspeaks geocaching. Geocoins also belong to their owner, but should not be allowed to delete rightful moved or discovered logs without ample reasoning. Such is the agreement that should be made between Groundspeak and coin owners, such as myself, for allowing our coins to be activated and made part of Groundspeaks geocaching.