Alan2

OK< now that I know how to post a picture from from my cache site, how would I post a picture stored in an image file in my computer? Alan

OK< now that I know how to post a picture from from my cache site, how would I post a picture stored in an image file in my computer? Alan

Test

Test

We all seek, Treasures of the heart, Only to find ourselves. Alan

If a cache truly ges traded up, who gets to keep the stuff at the end of the cache's "life"? Why? And when does a cache's life "end"? Alan

Wow! I could use a beer about now too. I thought this was going to be a lively topic when I started it – but it seems to have gotten everyone’s juices flowing. First let me thank everyone for his or her response. I read them all. And I agree with many of the things said on all sides. (I do admit though that some of the personal attacks stung!) Let me clear up one thing right away. The topic title .com or .org was not meant to imply or suggest that Jeremy should change his commercial site to a .org or non-profit. It’s his site and terrific one at that. When I first started logging on back last October, I sent Jeremy an email complemented him on how great it was. And it’s gotten a lot better. I appreciate his talent, hard work and excellence, as I’m sure we all do. The .org or .com was an idea or vision not for geocaching.com but for us – the geocaching community in how we wanted to move into the future. In reading the forum after the recent changes and checking my own feelings, I felt that a healthy discussion of a Vision for the future might be important. I expressed my feelings and concerns and asked others to join me and/or express their views as well. I may have muddled the thing up by combining two issues however. The first issue had to do with having a collective voice through some sort of non-profit organization. It would attempt to congeal and promote geocaching and keep it healthy. Similar to organizations like Sierra or the NY and NJ Trail Conference and others. Many posts hit upon the positive aspect of this including a very good summary by Webling in Scott’s poll topic: “Support for a Nonprofit Association?” Please check it out and vote there on what you think. The other issue and the one that caused the most heated debate centered on the “profit” angle or commercial aspect. First let me state as a former business owner, I believe that for profit sites will probably always outclass non-profit sites. The profit motive always causes people to do better. Having said that, my concern was and is that profit motives also cause people to want to maximize them. That too is human nature. And in the process it could damage the nature of geocaching. And my concern was to somehow “protect” where the community might want to go by creating its own site. I don’t know enough about that process maybe to judge it. Many have expressed the great difficulty in that –and I’ll accept that. It’s just that I don’t think it’s healthy for the reasons I gave (and you can and have disagreed) for a businessman to decide the sport, who gets to see what cache and when and things like that. So, where do we go from here? I’d rather not open the second issue again. I don’t think that would be productive. We could focus on the first issue – one of creating an organization that promotes various aspects of geocaching. It could work hand-in-hand with all the .coms. The organization would stay out of the website business and leave that to the Jeremy’s of the world who will probably do a better job than the organization. This would leave the organization to focus on promoting the sport, setting standards and good practices that would be appreciated by land managers for example. This time I’m not volunteering for anything. If someone else wants to organize – go to it. I’ll help but frankly I don’t want to run anything. For me I’m interested in keeping low key. Now where’s that beer? Alan

The issue isn't member’s only caches. The issue is allowing money to decide how geocaching, the hobby/sport, should be organized. And allowing one person to decide for the entire community. It is true that running web pages cost money. It is also true that a person is allowed to use his hard work and desire to create a business and run it how he sees fit. However, we the geocaching community, must decide what we want. Next year, the business owner (whoever that may be) could decide that "all" members must join. Maybe after a "free" 30 day trial or whatever so the newbies can be hooked. And the owner will decide how geocaching is going to be run. I believe we should decide - through membership participation and voting like any other non-profit organization. Sure there will be need for membership fees, but the members decide how much, and where it's spent and how the organization will be run. The voting membership will decide on mochaches. The membership, in another example, will decide how approaches to people in the National Park Service boosting geocachoing in parks should happen. Orgainized approaches through a national organization would have more power rather than "ad hoc" contact by individuals Or whatever it is we as a community by everyone voting on where and how we move forward. Just like thousands of other hobbyist groups. Otherwise the rather minor item of "mocaches" will be just a ripple in a tide that will sweep over all our last remaining input and independence on how this will be run. The "almighty" dollar and profit motive will run it and it will lose it's community outlook and standards. So here’s my suggestion. I don’t know enough about web pages. But after reading the posts over 6 months, I know there are brilliant technical people out there who do. I don’t belong to any other hobbyist group. But I’m sure others out there do and can contribute organizational standards. And others can handle setting up a non-profit organization. I’m willing to contribute my time to help get this started in whatever capacity I can help. If others are interested please contact me at alank2us2002@yahoo.com or better yet respond to this post in the forum so others can see your thoughts and ideas. Thanks. Alan

Try and eraser on the contact pins. Also, try fresh batteries. Alan

Try and eraser on the contact pins. Also, try fresh batteries. Alan

quote:Originally posted by Wander Lost: quote:Originally posted by Robereno: If I were new and was looking at the map and getting enthused about going for a search only to find after clicking on the icon that I have to pay money for the details, it would really turn me off. I'd be nice if there were a way to hide the MOC from the general viewing public so they wouldn't even see them listed. After they have visited the site a few times, gone on a couple of hunts and gotten hooked my guess is they will look into getting a Charter Membership. 'Nuff said. You're a genius Wander lost! You just figured out Jeremy's business plan or advising him. You see Charter Membership and Member's Only cache's are the only ways to create a pay for cache service. It's the only way to make the pay structure work and get people willing to go along. MOCahches are a smoke screen. Don't you guys get it? It's not about preventing vandalism. It's about getting "free" software and then having to pay $29.95 for the upgrade for the "real" goodies. Sure the "freebies" will always be around to pull in new addicts, but you'll have to pay for the "pure" stuff. Once the trap's been set, and there's no place else to go, geocaching will be only a pay for cache sport. Lessen the chance for this by not falling for and posting MO caches. Otherwise follow the remaining scenario. Others will jump into the fray marketing their own web site and fees. Hey a person has to make a buck! Frankly, that's going to reduce the number of geocachers. If it's not kept free, less people will get involved and less people will buy GPS equipment. So, the manufacturers might start their own "free" sites to keep interest higher and subsequent equipment sales greater. Of cource, the whole thing could become so lucrative, then true commercialization might occur - with companies having high stakes geocaches, with TV syndication a la "Survivor" with alligators along the waypoints, jungles and hidden videocams watching people do "bee dances". Jeremy are you listening? Sure you are. I've probably missed some other great money making ideas you're contemplating. Alan

I cannot make up my mind what to do. I feel very uncomfortable and I suppose you really couldn't care. I guess what's bothering me, Jeremy, is there seems to be disingenuousness on your part. If you would come out and say straight out, "Yes, I intend to make a profit on this - it has now become a fully commercial site. While I enjoy doing this before as a labor of love, things have changed" I could accept that. But you seem to also want to play the knight in shiney armor looking for what a great job you did for the "membership", still asking for "donations" through PayPal instead of caling them "fees" and while not willing to provide an income statement for geocaching which you imply will probably never be in the black. I feel I'm being "hoodwinked", like there's a con job going on. That you made a business decision (your right by the way) to maximize the financial benefit to you but playing us along giving us "well, it's good for the group" "espris de corps" "we gotta pay for servers" and all that stuff. I smell a business plan that's going to maximize this thing to the hilt. I'm not asking you to tell us the business plan. Just acknowledge it and cut the cord to the past. Then I ca join fully concious that I'm paying your business a service charge like a golfer pays greens fees. I just don't want to feel like a sucker! Alan

I get suspicious whenever money is involved. I assume others feel the same way. In order to alleviate that feeling, and reduce the squawking,I recommend Jeremy you take a position as follows. (I apologize if you have already, I may have missed it in the threads). Will this become a commercial site in which you profit or not? If not, then all income and expenses should be listed on a regular basis. Not revealing that, then we should all assume you have made this a commercial site and we, your customers, will know this and underdstand that we are paying for a commercial service. We can than decide if we want to pay or not but either way the udnerlying suspicion of what's really going on here with the money will be eliminated. I believe that if its the former, and you regularly post an "income statement", most of the complaints I'm reading other than discussion of the format will disappear. By the way I take no position on the way you should go. Cerainly you've earned the right to decide. You've more than paid your dues and if you feel you want to make something on it now because of the time and effort, well it's a free country. (Sorry my overseas friends). However, if you don't and you want to continue this as a "labor of love", than posting an income statement, like any non-profit organization is just the right thing to do. Just my 2 cents. Thank you. Alan

Jeremy, How about a secondary geocaching site that is for commercial caches only. The establishments who set up the cache pay Geocaching for it and that could offset your costs for the "free" site. Publicity can be given around it. Or just have commercial caches as part of the one, main site and flag those caches as such. Sure, many won't like the idea but there are costs and that's the way it is. The one thing that I don't think was discussed, and this may be a sensitive issue, is how much money are we talking about? What do you need to run this? what are the hard and soft costs involved? This data may help define what has to be done. Alan

Jeremy: I know you piut a lot of effort into the switch and I complement you for the effort. One thing that I mess though is the data on the person is mising in the post - their town/state (if they had it to begin with). I always found that very important as many times questions cannot be anwsered or good info given without knowing that. In addition, it realy takes away the personal touch of people you're "talking" too. I know you can click to get that info, but that's too much to do with all the posts. Just my 2 cents. Tks Alan

Depending on the area figure 25,000 sq miles in 8 meg Legend and triple that for 24M Vista. That's for topo only, no Roads and Recreation which you might want to add later for detailed street info which will take away from these amounts. If you have the extra 80 bucks for the Vista go for it. Beside triple the memory, you have altimeter and magnetic compass built in - not available in Legend. Alan