BigCatMomma

I browsed through the forum posts and pinned posts and didn't really find an answer to this, so perhaps someone else knows. I have two really nifty collector's coins that I got at a local museum's gift shop. I have no idea who minted them, and obviously they don't have a geocoin code stamped/engraved on them. Is there a way to get a coin code that I could then have a local engraver put on the coins so I could turn them into trackables? I think these would make really nice geocoins.

I'm glad to have come across this topic, because we seem to have a local problem in my area where TBs disappear, never to be seen again. I suspect a "collector" is among us. I have often wondered if the solution might be to simply not show TBs and geocoins in a cache inventory. Let the finder log the TB or coin when they find it and not disclose where they leave it. If you don't move a TB or coin, simply don't mention its presence. That way, those who want to collect the things are going to have to go to an awful lot of effort to expand their collections. They'd literally have to keep visiting every cache in hopes they discover a TB or coin there instead of simply looking at cache descriptions and seeing a TB or coin in the inventory. So basically I'm suggesting a change in the way TBs and coins are logged in order to protect them from "collectors." This might not work so well for TB hotels, but I have seen at least one cache that got muggled so often that now the cache owner requires you to email him in order to get the combination for the cache as it's now locked and chained! That would be a solution, I guess, to a TB hotel having all the TBs in it go missing. You'd at least know who snagged them, and perhaps banning the perpetrator from geocaching.com would be in order. I travel a lot and really enjoy moving the TBs and coins around, so it's disappointing to me to see them disappear when I place them locally. As a result, I will probably STOP placing them locally. I've just started fielding my own TBs, and would hope that if others know they've got a "collector" in their midst that they'd not drop my TBs where they know they're falling into a black hole. I'm really interested in others' thoughts on how to solve the problem of "collectors."

I think it's a bit unfair to complain if the cache is rated fairly. There is a rating system on the form for submitting the cache, and some folks don't use it. You have to keep in mind that there are all kinds of cachers out there: elderly, handicapped, people going caching with their young children. My area is full of spots where the hike to the cache can be anything from a nice stroll in a park to "Hey, hope you brought your climbing gear." As a 54 year old with arthritis in my knees, I don't have any problems with saying, "That Terrain 4 is questionable for me; think I'll skip that one." But when someone calls it a 1 and I find myself scrambling up and down the banks of arroyos through forests of thorns... well, that's not a 1. I have the option of turning back, but is this fair if I drove a ways to do this one thinking it'll be a walk in the park that my knees can easily handle? Yes, I'll turn back - but I won't have kind thoughts for the person who didn't accurately rate the terrain difficulty. There are plenty of opportunities to clarify the terrain for the various cachers out there. Put in some attributes. If there's an easy way in for the less physically able, mention it. I've seen some very thoughtful "If you go by the direct route this will be a 4, but if you park at <coordinates> it will be more like a 2." Gives the more physically capable the choice of taking a challenge and the less able the choice of taking what would be less of a challenge if they already weren't challenged by physical limitations or accompanying young kids. Frankly, I'm more annoyed by the folks who, simply because they want to place the cache, artfully neglect to mention that you will be greeted by signs that say "NO TRESPASSING" or will have to scale a fence or try to shimmy under barbed wire. Y'know, the fence and/or barbed wire is there for a reason, and it pretty powerfully says "Stay Out!" to most folks. Also, I think people get different things out of caching. I got into it as a good way to keep my mobility in the face of age and arthritis; I have been pleased to find that I'm actually regaining some of the mobility I had lost to this disease. But I also appreciate clever caches that depart from the ubiquitous UPR or micro stuck on a guardrail, and because I travel a lot I like to move the TBs and coins around (and therefor have a real hatred toward those who take the TB and just keep it). But I also recognize that there are other people out there looking for a physical challenge. So I think as long as the cache description lets folks know that this is one for those who like the physically demanding, then those who whine about it being physically demanding need to understand that there is a reason for a cache description.

Actually, I didn't say it was for the return of my bugs only. I said it was the final destination for my TBs. But I can see how that might get stretched to the notion that it's for my TBs only. It probably wouldn't be a bad cache to act as a travel bug hotel - and that might actually fit the theme nicely. The Humane Society takes in pets and gets them on their way into new homes.... My cache takes in TBs and gets them on their way to new homes. You've given me a great idea! This cache is also not far off a major north/south highway and near a military base as well, so as they say: location, location, location. The modified cache has been published, but I'll email my reviewer and see if s/he will allow this additional modification.

It never did have the theme of "humane society is cool." It had the theme of "reward your pet." Now it has the theme "reward your new pet" and it's not a geocache anymore. The modified cache does, however, still have the original function: a receptacle for return of my TBs. It just doesn't add the "reward your pet" portion. Can't. That function required me to put out a 2 gallon container, and I just can't do that in this urban environment (El Paso is the 23rd largest city in the US with 700,000 people) without serious risk of it getting muggled on a regular basis. I'm not even sure the modified cache won't get muggled.

Well, first of all let me say that the original idea of the cache has been scrapped. And how I agree with so many of you that the idea is the sport. So the whole thing has been modified greatly. The cache is now outside. It contains nothing other than a logbook and pen for those who want to claim the find. There is no swag. The sport is finding the cache, not getting something from it. It's large enough to contain my TBs, but pet-related swag tends to be smelly and attract animals, so the swag has been totally eliminated. Other sorts of swag would not be appropriate to the theme of my cache. Someone suggested that perhaps I should take up something other than geocaching, and I'd like to respond to that person's comments. I took a four-hour hiatus to cool down after those remarks, but still feel they need responding to. As a relatively new cacher (note I've only been a member since 4 July), I found your remarks to be, shall we say, contrary to the whole idea of a "sport" to begin with. It smacks of cronyism: this is our group, you stay out. It was immature, and it certainly doesn't make me want to associate with you, nor with your group if indeed that is the group's feeling. (I don't get that impression, but who knows? I could be wrong.) In that regard you are very right: perhaps I should take up something other than geocaching, and indeed I am part of another sport that actively promotes itself and does everything it can to make newcomers feel welcome and even help them improve in their participation in the sport. I have never had that sense as someone new to geocaching. Geocaching as a sport is NOT my first love as a recreational activity, nor do I suspect it will take over that position. Regardless, I don't think telling newcomers to simply buzz off is a way for any group to promote itself. Unless, of course, you want to watch your sport die off as each of you does so. I like geocaching just as I liked orienteering back when I did that, but do have to admit that after 80+ finds it's getting a bit predictable. It's always under a pile of rocks, or some SOB thinking they're being cute will make you crawl under a barbed wire fence after it. And to the posts I have made, yes - I had fun. But I also believe that ONE standard should apply to ALL caches. I do not see why others could not have had fun with my original cache - perhaps more fun than they will have with the modified cache. If it is soliciting for me to locate a cache inside the building of a not-for-profit organization where it is nowhere near the staff simply because that facility has a mission then it is certainly soliciting to require the cacher to go inside and sign the visitor's log that sits RIGHT NEXT TO the donation box. (I was also actively solicited by one of the staff when she found out I was geocaching although I chose to ignore it, but I'll bet others have caved to it.) And as for looking up the address in the Yellow Pages, you can do that for any of the Visitor's Centers where you have to go to the desk and ask for the cache as well. You can do it for Border Patrol and similar virtuals. Yes, yes, yes - that doesn't set a precedent for my cache. But again, ONE standard should apply to ALL caches. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of which agendas the reviewers subjectively decide they can allow (like contributing to the support of a private museum) versus the ones they aren't as personally inclined to support (like housing pets awaiting adoption). And from what I can see, there is a great deal of subjectivity being applied to which caches may be allowed and which are not. And I suspect there may even be a little cronyism involved as well. I would have wished that all of you would have looked at THE CACHE LISTING and ONLY THE CACHE LISTING along with the reviewer's remarks in making your replies. You got way, far away from that, especially in bringing up my past forum posts. I felt I was very careful with THE CACHE LISTING to eliminate all sense of solicitation, and in fact that was never ever my intent if you will look back at those previous forum posts where I discussed this. This was just a mechanism by which I could knit together two things I do. And for the person who suggested I could find another way to support the shelter, I did. I took all the contents of the original cache - all the treats, toys, collars, little cans of pet food, etc - and told them to put them at the counter for anyone who has just adopted a pet to take. And I'll keep that well-supplied for them. It is, after all, more in keeping with my desire to see the shelter supported to encourage those who will be actually going in to adopt a pet than it is to reward people who are just seeking out a cache (and thus people whose presence would have been unrelated to the shelter's activities). So I thank you for all of the discussion as it has allowed me to make those changes necessary to place the cache as a receptacle for my TBs without transgressing from the spirit of geocaching as you have explained it to me as well as see that my previous expenditures for the original cache did not go to waste but will indeed go to supporting what I consider to be a worthy cause (albeit without any links to geocaching). I'd like to also add, in editorial mode and as an afterthought, that I personally don't see a problem with promoting an agenda as long as the agenda is clearly stated in the cache listing. That gives the cacher the option right up front when deciding on which caches to seek of simply not going to that cache, a decision I have made myself with regard to caches located on Arizona Public Lands ($50 is too much to ask an occasional visitor from out-of-state to pay simply for the privilege of seeking out an occasional geocache). Park fees are also stated clearly in the caches for those located in parks. You have to admit that there is a very fine line between caches that lie within the envelope and those that don't, and the location of that line seems to vary from reviewer to reviewer. Is not the gift shop of a state park a commercial enterprise? Then why is it allowable for a cache to be located inside the gift shop under the counter where one must ask the clerk for it but not allowable for it to be located inside a business? Why would a cacher feel less compelled to make a purchase in the park's gift shop than in a business? Plus, I will wager a BIG wager that as a result of the subjective nature of reviewer's decisions there are LOTS of caches out there with BIG agendas that are approved simply because the cache owner has not been up front and honest about their cache. The example I cited of the cache that's located near a restaurant is prime, and I've encountered many local caches that are located just outside businesses or clubs. I, of course, can't prove it, but it sure looks like these caches are designed to advertise the business or club. Some even explicitly state that they are. So I feel that largely I ran into the resistance I did simply because I was up front and honest about the circumstances of my cache. You can ask yourselves what I may have learned from this.

I guess from what I'm seeing here I should just ditch this cache entirely. But I'm angry. Sure, caching is a "fun family activity" but I can't put in a cache with stuff in it that people can take for their pets. (Note it is a recommendation to not put smelly stuff in a cache, not a prohibition.) I can't place a cache where that stuff will be safeguarded, even though plenty of other caches are inside buildings that in my frank opinion do more to solicit for charitable causes or promote businesses than mine does. I have to go to the expense of placing the cache and then find out I can't place the cache. I do all this after I have ASKED in the forums how to go about doing it and taken that advice. I am sorry I bought a premium membership. I wish I could get my money back. I am sorry I bought TBs from geocaching.com and wish I could get THAT money back. And right now I don't regard caching as a fun activity. In fact, I am seriously considering removing the three other caches I've placed and having them archived because I don't feel like bothering with them anymore.

"I'll also point out that state parks and non profits with entry fees are exempt from the commercial guideline." So why then is a nonprofit WITHOUT an entry fee not exempt? I can appreciate the allusions to my former posts, but please also note that at no time did I say I wanted a CACHER to make a donation to this organization. I would be the one to do so, and I took the advice of those who said I should make sure the wording within the cache description clear in that regard. I think the guideline is being over-interpreted. I also think there are clear, logical reasons for where it was placed, but I feel a bit cheated by the system when I find I will have to go to an additional (and likely costly) expense to model a new cache container simply so it can be placed on the outside of the door rather than on the inside. As I said, I can't communicate with my reviewer until the cache is placed, and I've already gone to some expense on this.

On placing outside, again: the cache has cat and dog treats in it, as well as catnip toys. It will get invaded by local wildlife (insects, lizards, and perhaps even a skunk). The area is fenced and the fence is locked during non-business hours, but that doesn't keep critters from getting to the cache. Second, I don't see how bringing a cacher to the door of the Humane Society is any different than having them go into the building. The main difference that I see between my cache and examples I cited is that there is nothing to buy inside the Humane Society building, no donation box, and my cache doesn't require that you ask the staff for it. In short, it's less intrusive and potentially promoting of commercial interests. The Executive Director has embraced it largely as a mechanism to spread the word as to the location of the facility, as this is a new facility (has been open for less than 6 months) and quite distant from where the old one was. Plus, she checked out the geocaching.com website and thinks it's cool. I'd have to do some radical changes to place the cache outside, including changing the cache container itself. (The real pain here is that I cannot contact my local reviewer without actually going to the time and expense of placing a cache, as his/her only mechanism for communication is through review posts on the cache page, so I am already out the money for the cache container - $30.)

I discussed this cache here in the forums before actually placing it, and feel I have a cache that meets all of the guidelines. However, my reviewer has archived the cache. Here is the cache description: "Final destination for BigCatMomma's Kittens TBs This cache is placed on private property with the permission of the Executive Director of the El Paso Humane Society. Hours of access are restricted to 10 AM to 4:30 PM Mon - Sat and 10 AM to 3:30 PM Sun. Even if you don't have one of BigCatMomma's Kittens TBs to deliver, feel free to visit the cache and exchange items. Try to keep items pet-related. " And the hint: "Look inside, That's where I hide. I'm so blue, And furry, too." Here is the reviewer's reasoning for archiving the cache: "I'm sorry, but unless you want to relocate this outside the building, I'm afraid I can't publish this. The placement of this inside the lobby can only be seen as a way to promote the Humane Society. As noted in the guidelines, "caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda." While you say "Visitors to the cache do not need to involve the staff in their visit", that's most likely going to happen whether or not the cachers wants it. " First, and in retrospect, I think the reviewer might be confusing the Humane Society, whose mission is to take in pets which for whatever reason the owner can no longer keep and adopt them out to people who are looking for pets, with the animal control shelter whose mission is to enforce the city's ordinances concerning stray animals, or the ASPCA whose mission is to promote humane treatment of animals and seek punishment for those who treat animals inhumanely. Second, and having read the guidelines VERY CAREFULLY, there is no prohibition against having a cache within a building, and I can even cite examples of caches within buildings that in my humble opinion push the envelope far more than my cache does. Third, note that my cache is very careful to not promote the services of the Humane Society, request a donation to them, or even ask people to play with the animals while they are there. In fact, the lobby area where the cache is does not house animals - they are housed in completely separate buildings. It is up front about the fact that the cache is located there, as well as the fact that it's inside the building. But the cache container itself - one of those "kitty condos" you see for sale at pet shops - is out in the open and does not require cachers to interact with the facility's staff to access it. It's not even located at their desk - it's in a corner away from the reception desk (and visible from near the front door). I placed this cache where it is for two reasons: 1) It's logical that a kitten that strays ends up in a shelter, and I have a series of TBs that all have little kitten hitchhikers that I intend to activate. I travel frequently and would like to see their "adventures" as they make their way back home (aka "The Incredible Journey"). 2) I wanted people to be able to visit the cache and take some of the swag even if they didn't have a TB to deliver, and the swag consists of pet-related stuff, including toys and treats. Given the treats in the cache, outside is NOT obviously a good option! (At least not if I don't want a cacher greeted by a formerly hungry skunk.) Here are examples of caches I think go far beyond the location on the guidelines envelope where I believe my cache lies: 1. Any cache which is located within a state park and which requires an entrance fee. In my opinion, this could be construed as promoting the business of the park. And there are LOTS of caches out there that meet this definition, including caches locally within the State of Texas' Franklin Mountains State Park (which explicitly state they are placed to get more visitors into the park), caches placed by the New Mexico State Parks system to promote their 75th anniversary, and caches located on Arizona Public Land which require a $50 annual permit to access. 2. Caches like GC1847J ("Take a Hike or Get Taken for a Ride") which not only requires either a park entrance fee or a tram ride fee but is also located inside the gift shop at the top of the tramway and requires that you ask the rangers for the cache. How does this cache not promote the commercial interests of the park? 3. Caches like GC155CH ("Welcome to Raton") which both require cachers to interact with the staff (you ask for it at the desk) and which are located in a facility whose sole purpose is to promote the businesses and tourist attractions in the area? 4. Caches like GCD8E2 ("Border Patrol") which, although there is no entrance fee, require you to sign the museum's visitor's log which is located right next to the donation box as well as walk throughout the museum and past their gift sales area multiple times (which is not physically separate from the exhibits). Plus, the Border Patrol promulgates a definite political agenda that not everyone agrees with regarding recreational drugs, illegal immigration, and more specifically the border fence - the latter of which is such a hot political topic locally that there have been heated protests over it - and that agenda is quite evident in the museum. 5. Caches like GC1R1JE ("Dinners Delight 2") which is not at all shy about promoting the nearby restaurant: "Please try them out when over there caching. The food is good, the service is great and atmosplere is nice. Their hous are 5thirty to 9pm." So, as you can see, I don't feel that my cache has in any way pushed the envelope set forth in the guidelines and should be published. I feel that I have taken the advice I got from the forums earlier and have been very careful to ensure that the cache meets all of the guidelines. I am currently appealing the reviewer's decision. But what say you?

Ah, this is very good advice, because I do want to make it clear that neither I nor the shelter will be soliciting from anyone. It does seem like there is a very fine line between solicitation and non-solicitation. For instance, we have several caches in this area (and I've been to one of the 6 or 7) that plainly say they are designed to get more people to visit a particular state park, and of course there is an entrance fee. I went to one of them this weekend, and have to say I didn't mind paying the fee at all - it was a trip within this very large park that I'd not done before. And the cache was actually a hoot, with a hint being "Ask the rangers - they know where it is." After crisscrossing the area for about 20 minutes with another cacher, we finally went inside the gift shop where I held up my GPS to two smiling rangers and said, "OK - we give up. Where is it?" Turns out it's under their desk! They'd been watching us come to the door, move away, come to the door... and had already figured out why we were there.

Caches that Solicit Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda. MrsB In this case, though, I am not soliciting anything from anyone, nor will the shelter. I will be making the donation - not the person delivering the bug to the cache. And if someone wants to go to the cache without bug in hand and exchange items, they will be able to do so. (My plan is to fill the cache with pet-related swag, like squeaky toys, treats, etc.) As I said (but maybe didn't make clear) in my original post, I see this as a way of combining caching activities with my personal desire to support the shelter. I would consider that anyone who drops off one of the TBs would be supporting the shelter vicariously through me, delivering it knowing a donation would be made. And given the number of TBs that I've already seen that have simply disappeared into apparently someone's personal souvenir stash, I would REALLY consider delivery of the TB a support of the shelter! (So far, I've only located perhaps a fifth of the TBs that are listed as being in caches!)

I would like to set up a series of TBs that would travel back "home" for a charitable cause. Specifically, I want them to travel to my local Humane Society shelter, and with each one that returns I would make a donation to the shelter (and then send the bug back out on its mission). I see this as a fun way to combine caching with my desire to support this charitable cause. How would I go about doing this? I've already talked with the shelter director and the shelter is "go" on the idea of hosting a cache where the bugs can be dropped off. I would drop the bugs in caches while on my travels and wait for them to arrive at the shelter (which is conveniently along my route of travel to and from work), stopping off to pick up any returned travelers and make the donation to the shelter. I'd probably leave a batch of swag at the shelter, also, for cachers bringing in TBs. But again, the big question is how to go about doing this in the first place, given this won't be a strictly traditional cache. Should I just set up the cache and activate it and see what the reviewer says about it? Or is there a specific protocol for setting up a cache with the intent of supporting a charity?