Thorn Cachers

Micro-mark also has a good selection of casting supplies and equipment for the hobiest. I just made my first order from them, the one to one RTV rubber. Right now they have a sale going, but their shipping charges are steep. If you are going to be casting metals, I still think it is best to find a jewelry supply store and get a good crucible. I may also try casting some resin items soon. Though "geocaching related," they may not be sig items. Large craft stores, like Michals in my area, have some resin casting supplies, though you will probably need to get RTV rubber somewhere else. Cast resin may be a good way to make a plastic sig item if you do not wish to mess with melting the metals.

Judging from SueEmAll's name, I am the attorney on the other side. Currently my practice is mostly insurance defense. In a couple of days I'll be moving to a firm where I will only do insurance defense. Based on market share of the insurance company, if you get sued for an auto accident in Utah, there is a significant chance I will be your attorney...

I don't think anyone seriously suggests either banning PB jar caches or requiring Epi-pens. Well, OK, some may want to ban PB Jars as containers, but that has to do with how food jars do in the wild rather than allergies. As I've posted above, most parents of kids with allergies would just like a warning so we don't have to deal with a 5-year old at the cache being told he can't touch the "treasure." Yes, we know how unlikely it is to have problems if they are washed well and have sat in the weather a year--parents with kids like this have done pleanty of research--but we don't want our kid to be the "evidence." It wasn't to long ago that few of us thought kissing would be a problem. This actually makes me feel good about my insurance. We only had to pay about $60 each. Of course, we have to have a pair for the school, a pair for home, and a pair to carry around. For each kid. Any parent who has a kid with significant nut allergies is prepared for this, or your equilivant of the Department of Child and Family Services would be interested in talking to them about neglect. We'd just like to be informed ahead of time. The real point of this post is to explain a bit about Epi-pens. If you work with kids anymore, you need to know since it is a matter of time before you will have a kid with an Epi-pen in your class/troop/den, etc. (This is just FYI, no implications should be taken from this post by anyone.) Epi-pens are an auto-injector (spring loaded needle) with a strong medicine in them. Anyone who gets injected with one needs to go to the hospital right away. They are only designed to make it so someone who can't breathe can get enough oxygen to the brain to have a short time to get to the hospital. Therefore, you don't give one to a kid unless the kid can't breathe or is showing other signs of lack of oxygen. Then you call 911 and go to the hospital. Also, they should only be injected into the thigh. If it goes anywhere else, it can cause severe problems, such as loss of a limb. Basically, each pen has instructions, just read them. The delivery system is pretty idiot proof. But the medicine in one is dangerous enough that they would only be slightly more appropriate in a cache than Meth. (Don't put either in. And get counseling if you have the latter. )

I didn't mean the above to accusatory. Many people just don't realize how dangerous it can be. And for some odd reason the incidence and the severity is getting greater in our populations. I don't really have a problem with a cache in a peanut butter jar, but I would need to skip them with my son. Still, I think the rodents would be the stronger reason not to use any bottle that previously had food for a cache.

You may take peanut allergies more serious if you watched your child lose the ability to breath over a couple of minutes after being exposed. My wife has, after my son ate a snack that didn’t list peanuts as an ingredient. My first son had mild allergies. We just looked out for peanuts in the list of ingredients for him. For my second son, just a trace of peanut protein is enough to set him off. Fortunately, my wife was driving by our GP’s office when it happened. Yes, if I was caching with him I would skip a cache listed as being in a peanut butter bottle. I would appreciate it if you told me that before we get there, so I don’t have to try and pull him back at the last minute. As it is, I have a geocaching bag and a coat that have pockets to keep epipens. It also means we have to bring our own food to event caches. My second son would likely have a reaction if you put a safe food in a plastic bowl you last has peanut butter cookies in. I also learned to cast chocolate so I can give my kids some chocolate Santa’s for Christmas. (Try hunting for candy that lists allergy information that doesn’t have possible peanuts traces.) No I don’t think peanut butter should be banned. I love peanut butter and think every kid ought to have peanut butter sandwiches. But everyone should be willing to accept there is a risk and not try to minimize it. For whatever reason, more and more people can be killed by a food many of us love. Figure out why, and you will probably get a Nobel. On the other hand, I’m sure you can find a better bottle than a peanut butter jar. Especially if you have squirrels anywhere near the cache...

Sorry. I don't have any photos and it would take about a week before I could get one. It is much the same as the decon containers shown above with camo jobs. The boughs are just glued on with marine grade Goop. I really prefer the "hidden in plain sight" side of hiding, rather than the really hard to find side. Edit: removal of aviation reference.

It was hidden in a wild area of a park, in some non-rose bushes. It is rather obvious to anyone looking for a cache, since rose bushes are not in the area. However a muggle won't give it a second look since their are plenty of other wild flowers around. This time of year it is very obvious. Your are right though, if I did put it in a rose garden, I would worry about someone damaging the real bushes. Surprisingly, the cache I have that is the hardest to find is a decon can with fake pine boughs attached. It just blends in very well with the tree it is hanging in. I almost archived it once when someone moved it over one tree and I couldn't find it. Fortunately some one logged it before I got to the computer.

Ok, here's one I had to pull. It turned out not to be as waterproof as it should have been. Version 2.0 is waiting to be approved, and will hopefully be more waterproof. Opened: It's too bad we don't have any good public rose gardens around here.

Just because one person in a local parks and recreation department doesn't know about the caches, don't assume no one else asked permission. There is one city where I have placed caches that I expect would be more or less the same. I called in and asked for someone to approve an activity in the parks. I explained I wanted to talk about hiding a geocache. I got someone who sounded like the typical worker drone with little interest in the overall picture. I explained a cache and trading items. He asked something like, "So you'll be selling something there?" I said no, the trade items are just trivial little things, mostly to make kids happy, and it's all free. That made him happy and he said to go ahead. However, from his attitude and questions, I'm sure he never wrote anything down. If he ever mentioned it to anyone else, I'm sure it was just comment about some weird "geothing." I doubt his memory extended past lunch. I really wonder how often one person in an agency gives permission, but that is never recorded. I would not be surprised if many city rec departments would be surprised by the number of caches hidden where the hider dilligently got permission. Probably the first thing you should tell the guy from the city to do is to educate his people a little and have all calls about geocaching (or hiding things) directed to a single person. And that person really ought to write something down. With more detail than "geothing."

Perhaps those outside of Utah Admin’s area cannot understand what those of us in his area feel. Picture it this way. You have a nearby restaurant that is “pretty good.” However, one server provides outstanding service. When you walk in, you are seated right away. Every time you realize you need something, that server is there already to take care of you. Frankly, you go to the “pretty good” restaurant all the time because the server makes it so much better than any of the rest. This is essentially what we’ve had with Utah Admin. We see the problems and the gripes others have had around the country, and we see how we have been treated. Frankly, if we had a cache wait a whole day to be approved, we would worry about whether someone was sick. Craig has made geocaching.com much more appealing to us because of his great service. Do I know if the “trust breached” was enough to be worth this? No. Do I know if there is something more to make it clear that Groundspeak wasn’t just overreacting? No. But what I do know is that I wish someone could have worked this out. I understand that Craig took over as a favor after one of those periodic bomb threat stupidities. He has given a lot to Groundspeak, and to all of us. His site is a compliment to Groundspeak. It seams like things could have been handled better to make this work for everyone. Something before the resign or be fired stage. Regardless, I feel really sorry for the person who tries to take over for Utah Admin. Whoever you are, you have a lot to live up to.

Would anyone like to take a stab at making me a new avatar or make over my home-made avatar? I'd just like to keep it simple so I can use it for sig items as well. Thanks!

There are different alloy’s of pewter. The jewelry supply place I frequent also has a yellow version designed to resemble gold. Traditionally, all pewter contained lead. The modern lead-free pewter is mostly tin, with various other metals thrown in for extra shine, or for some other reason. However, you can also cast with pure tin and pure zinc, which can be much cheaper. The zinc is very cheap, but melts at a temperature a bit too high to use in the RTV molds I’ve been playing with. Silver, gold, aluminum and most other jewelry metals require much higher temperatures to cast, and you really need a centrifuge or vacuum assist machine to do well. Lead is not too bad if you are an adult and you use basic common sense. However, I do not want to leave it in geocaches or where parents may give it to kids; and I would rather others did the same for the sake of my kids. The lead may eventually form a powder that will get on the other toys in the cache. This is bad. If you try to cast with zinc, be aware the vapor is poisonous if you get it hot enough to vaporize. Also, investment (or plaster) must have all the moisture baked out of it before you cast and you must be careful of moisture. Water will vaporize with hot metal, and may cause an explosion or splatter. This is also why you should wear a face mask or eye protection when casting. (Think a glob of 500-600 deg F liquid metal in your eye.) I just found some pure tin ingots at a scrap dealer in Salt Lake City, which they sold for $6 per pound. This casts into items that are almost as pretty as the pewter that costs $18 in small amounts. They also had a couple of pewter ingots in their new scrap bin I could have had for $6 per pound, but since we could not tell if they were a lead-free alloy, I passed on them. A good scrap yard can give you lots of different metals to work with. However, either you need to be able to recognize the metals well, or you need someone there who can trust to do a good job identifying them. Most of the white metal alloys (tin, lead and zinc alloys, mainly) have some lead in them traditionally.

Where to by pewter: In the Salt Lake City area the best place for small quantities is Freshman's. This is a jeweler’s that sells jewelry equipment and supplies. They will sell one pound chunks of good lead-free pewter. (And various gemstones and gold if you want a really neat FTF prize.) I would expect most large cities would have some similar business. I agree with what others have posted. Lead-free pewter will look better, and given the minimal additional cost, lead is just not worth the trouble. I have cast using some old 1930's era molds I got from my dad. I've been experimenting for a while trying to cast a sig item with my own molds. Using investment and lost wax casting is fun, but it takes a relatively long time to produce multiple items that way. The investment is much better than regular plaster, if for no other reason than it is much easier to remove from the final item. I think the best way to make a mold is with RTV rubber. You can take several molds off of the master, and pour several at a time. I have recently used Quick-sil to make some molds off a wood model I carved. This costs a little over $30 for two pounds at Freshman’s. This should be enough for 5-6 molds of the size pictured below. Contenti also has a RTV rubber that can take white metal cast directly into it, but I’ve not tried it. These are the results of the first attempt with Quick-sil: They are still a bit crude as I did not take a lot of care with the original model (I was not too sure of Quick-sil) and I didn't mix the Quick-sil well enough. On my second attempt, the rubber mold was good enough the casts showed the grain on the wood, so my next batch will need a much better model. Here is a photo of the mold, made from Quick-Sil:

This is probably just expanding on what has already been said, but here it goes: Hiding good caches will give you good ones to look for, in the long run. A good, clever cache attracts (or at least should attract) comments in the logs about how cool it is, how tricky it is, etc. There are usually at least a few people who are competitive enough to try and place one just as cool and tricky, or better yet, do you one up. Some people just want to hide a box—big or micro. But at least a few will start raising the bar for “cool caches.” A corollary to this "rule" is that you need to praise good caches in the logs. We all like a figurative pat on the head. Seeing good logs, particularly from the cachers we know and respect, inspires most people to work harder on the next cache they place. A local organization does not have to be a “club.” Our own valley has a loose group of regulars that is semi-organized. Mostly, it is just a group of regulars that decides who will do the next event cache. It works for us. Bringing the cachers in an area together leads to talk of cool caches, the exchange of ideas, and inspiration. If you don’t have a local group, do a few event caches to get the “regulars” together and talking. Most of us here in Cache Valley feel our caches are of a high quality. We have plenty of ammo cans in the woods. But we also have caches that run the gamut from a container that is the mortal remains of the tin man, to puzzling micros that often require multiple trips to solve. Largely this is because we have seen other cool caches, and want to make our own caches meet the standard. Of course, living in “Cache Valley” also gives us a name to live up to…

I'd like some help with mine if anyone has any ideas. I'd like it simple, as I'd also like to use it as a logo on a sig item or stamp. A better looking "thorn guy" would be good. As an alternate idea, the "Thorn" comes from my family name, which originally referred to a wild rose. I'm not sure how you could work that in and keep the design simple, though. - Thanks!

For micros (or mini’s), I prefer decon containers. For larger caches, I prefer ammo cans. Having said that, I have two caches in “Tupperware” look-alikes (one isn’t approved yet). The first one was my first cache, and I had no ammo cans handy. If I re-did it, it would be in an ammo can. The second is new, and the container had to fit the camouflage. So the particular cache may change the best container. When I see an ammo can, it seems much more likely to turn out to have better items that are in better condition and a log I can sign without the use of an iron. The cans are also available in a variety of containers. As Black Mage said, they are readily available around her from Smith & Edwards, a local surplus/outdoor shop. If you are traveling down I-15 in near Ogden, Utah, they are worth a look. Today, they had decon containers, and ammo cans various sizes up to 20 mm shells. They also had what I assume was an “ammo can” about the size of a large ice chest. I only “guess” because there were no markings. However, its lid clamped down, it had a gasket, and it looked fairly waterproof. I was tempted to get one just for the challenge of camouflaging it.

If the cache comes to Northern Utah, I'd be honored to carry it for a while, then pass it on. If it gets here in a month or so, it may be able to help with my nemesis cache, the West Door of Moria. I may need additional karma for that. (Check my DNF log for why.) Maybe I could use it to beat back the orcs. Or at least stay upright.

I just read this topic last night. So, I guess I should post my latest log: Here it is. One of these days I'll have to learn that taking a buddy with me when I go into the woods should mean a buddy who can drive.

I was on a business trip in Cedar City, Utah and took a couple of travel bugs to trade. It turned out to be very difficult, as all the caches in the area listed in having bugs were missing them. After a couple of days, I hit a cache on the way out of town (actually in Panguich) and found a travel bug. It was only when I got home to Cache Valley, Utah and logged it that I found out it was my brother's travel bug. He lives in Idaho.

We have an event cache for the valley next week. I expect this topic will come up. Regardless, any ideas how we could catch the guy?

It keeps getting more odd. The cache from the thread Eartha pointed out is also in this area. If it is the one I think it is, it is only a couple of miles away from mine. I've watched bugs around our area, and released a couple. I've been impressed how well they seem to be cared for here. It appears someone is doing their dirty work elsewhere and dumping the tags here. Of the five tags, three are in the mail to their owners. One already made duplicate tags, and one is deciding whether he wants to send me a new hitchhiker. Oddly, one was just logged as picked up two days after I found the tag. Perhaps someone "fixed" that one along the way.

CarleenP, That is a good idea, and I haven't logged the bugs. In part because of what you said. Also, it just doesn't seem right to log them since I don't really feel like I found the travel bug. I noticed two of them had prior issues, were fixed and sent on again. Still, since they were in different states, I wouldn't think the same person was responsible for the first problems on both. I also wondered if someone had eliminated bugs which offended them. However, three of the bugs are not offensive at all. Two would require an extremely prudish person to be offended. One may have very mild political overtones, and the last one to be logged had a bit of "potty humor" about it. Still, that wouldn't explain why someone would trash the bugs. Just makes me wonder what the person was thinking. It is especially sad since one was all the way from Germany.

As an update, two people have asked for the tags back, I'll send them tomorrow or the next day. The other three haven't responded. What I find quite baffling is that whoever did this seems to have traveled well over a thousand miles to get the bugs, assuming the bugs were where they were last logged. There were no notes or any other taunting. As far as I know, no manifestos have been published in any papers related to this. It seems like a lot of work just to be a jerk. Maybe the person had an attack of conscious and decided not to go through with the juvenile taunting. That at least puts him or her a little higher in my estimation.

I recently did maintenance on one of my caches. It was in pretty good shape, other than it was left exposed a few feet from where it should have been. However, in the bottom I found a keychain with five travel bug dog tags attached. No actual travel bugs were in sight. No recent travel bugs were logged either in the log book or online. There was also a black “tag” with one of the bug’s mission information. Interestingly, most of the bugs have been active fairly recently, the oldest at the end of May. One was logged just a couple of days before I found the tags. Three of them were last logged in Idaho, ranging from about 30 to several hundred miles away. The other two were last logged in Louisiana and California. None had the same cachers logged as recent finders. I’m really at a loss about how these tags came to be in my cache. Why would anyone take five bugs from caches far apart, pull the tags, put the tags together, and drop the tags in a cache? Has this happened to anyone else, or has my cache just been chosen by some weird travel bug serial killer to dispose of the evidence? On the other hand, how should I take care of these tags? I’m e-mailing the owners now. Should I just mail the tags back to them? If they send replacement parts, I’d be happy to replace the bugs, but I’m not sure if this is “acceptable.” What should happen in these circumstances?

I'm de-lurking long enough to introduce myself. I don't often post to forums, as I tend to want to make sure I know the answer before I shoot off my mouth. (A lesson learned through experience.) As I am fairly new to Geocaching, this means I am doing far more reading than typing. I wish I had the time to do more of both. I'm married, in Cache Valley, Utah. (The valley was so named because the mountain men regularly left caches of supplies and equipment here.) I have three kids, and we have been caching for a little over a month now. I also have several brothers who also cache with their families. Now I must leave, as we are trying to go find a cache or two...