Doc_musketeers

Hmm ... I’d love to have the data so I can assess the difficulty levels we assign, whether our puzzle is a challenge rather than an annoyance, etc. I might change over for that reason. Thanks for the info!

I’m betting This has been discussed and I’m just not finding the right search phrase: is there a way with the “new” native solution Checker for a CO to see activity? Attempts, solved, etc? I know this is possible with some 3rd party Checkers, and as players we enjoyed being able to look at who else had solved a mystery/puzzle cache and how long ago. Now as CO’s it would be informative to see that data on our puzzle caches.

Makes sense. Especially since as you and Arisoft pointed out the fuzziness is INTENTIONAL. Yeah, what does “field puzzle” actually cover? Seems weird and almost more confusing to call it a mystery or multi when it just requires you to walk a few extra steps. Arguably these lampposts are so close most cachers would switch to visual search mode at about the same spot...

I like this idea- or just message the CO. As for the guidelines, I’m curious how many players (or even Reviewers) would consider this example a violation? The spirit of this guideline is that posted coordinates for a traditional cache should put you in a fair location for your search. Having 6 possible hiding spots equal distance and in line of sight with clear instructions seems to meet that goal. I’m not even sure it was 70 feet from coordinates to actual LPC, I haven’t looked it back up, but anyone who read the log name/description and knows anything about LPC’s would chuckle, not rant, so a challenge seems rather pharisaical.

Well, in this example, any log that listed more specific coordinates would probably have been deleted by the CO, lol. (Can you imagine someone posting the “correct” coordinates for a puzzle cache “coordinates were nearly 2 miles off!...”) but your point does fall in the “don’t complain if you can’t suggest a solution” ballpark. Definitely true for most caches.

As an aside, ignoring maps can lead to downfall too. After all, what’s one of the first steps in placing a new cache? Besides searching the area for existing caches, once you type in your coordinates you are asked to confirm using what? Your coordinates displayed on an online map. Granted that process isn’t supposed to involve the micro level adjustments I was originally referring to, but sometimes I wonder if players really look at that before moving on excitedly to typing the description, etc. case in point: we recently had a player place a hide at a specific location in honor of a family member. However the posted coordinates were off by a couple hundred feet! In fact it appeared to be in someone’s back yard. The cache name led to the correct location but it was still confusing. When a couple of us pointed this out, the CO posted updated coordinates only to have the cache instantly disabled because the ACTUAL location was too close to an existing cache. They subsequently found a new site for their hide that still met their desired theme, but I can’t believe they ever looked at where their original coordinates put you. This wasn’t “wrong side of the building” it was “wrong block!”

Lol. A great local cacher has a spoof LPC hide where coordinates dump you in the middle of a section of parking lot with 6 lampposts surrounding you. It’s called “1 of 6” or something similar and a clear explanation in the description ...and there are still logs saying “coordinates were 79 ft off!” To which the CO once replied “coordinates are perfect ...” i guess it helps to at least read the NAME of the cache even if you skip the description

Exactly the scenario. We haven’t ever merely “followed the map” but it has made us wonder who is off. We usually just go back out and take a few more readings. I’ve also plugged in the map coordinates and followed those - they are usually what’s off. But with the smartphone app bringing players into the game who might not own a separate GPSr, you wonder which THEY will trust? This is also related to an issue I brought up on the “how to” section about driving instructions. If the tiles are off it can make a hide appear on the wrong side of a fence. If a player relied on the image instead of or even in addition to coordinates - they can end up trespassing. Sure, a note in the description can clarify (we’ve had that discussion), but I can see why some CO’s might be tempted to adjust coordinates to alleviate the possible confusion. Again, this is all within a 10’ circle anyway. I totally agree with reliance on GPSr, I’m just noticing this discrepancy as we place more hides and wonder if it’s likely to become more of an issue with newer generations of players using smartphones. Maybe it’s just a matter of education. I wasn’t sure how accurate the maps were, hence my initial post. A good CO wants accurate coordinates. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to be concerned about it or to compare with other sources (cachers chime in about coordinates in logs all the time). The reassurance from the community to trust our coordinates is great, I think we will probably find we need to help newer players understand the limitations of online maps.

That’s pretty much my point. The ”10 feet off” is appearance on the map. easilt within GPSr accuracy - mine and the searcher. The question was more about dealing with the discrepancy between coordinates and display on the map. For instance: If I know my hide is on the front of the building, but Google Maps displays my coordinates on the side of the building ...

Good point. I especially like the bullet point that CO needs to obtain coordinates while AT the location, which rules out an armchair pin drop! So that limits it to using Google and friends to improve accuracy of coordinates, but NOT using the map to supersede GPS coordinates.

Wow. Great example. Thankfully in our case it’s a little less critical, and relatively small, less then 10 ft, but sometimes that’s enough to change a cacher’s search, especially in a “hidey-hole rich environment” like a boulder breakwater!

I guess another question has to do more with how cachers search. We have one very successful local cacher who either memorizes the sat map or prints it out and then searches without a GPSr, and our team is likely to use the map to decide which side of a building corner or other such feature to search at, so once we are within the typical accuracy of the searcher’s handheld unit, I almost wonder if “matching the map” is more instructive than true precision.

Normally, when placing a hide, we obtain at least a couple good averaged waypoints on different days (Garmin Etrex20) and navigate back to the point from various directions to check. But on occasion we notice that if we type the coordinates into Google Maps and use the satellite or hybrid view, the waypoint appears off by maybe 10 feet in relation to some visible landmark (fence, building corner, rock, etc.). Usually still within “working radius” for a decent GZ but we’d love to be as precise as possible. My inclination is to assume my waypoint was off a smidge and adjust the coordinates to match the satellite image. But I realize I have no good reason to assume Google’s coordinates are any more reliable to the last decimal place than mine, just because that’s how it’s labeled on the “picture” from space. I’ve also noticed what appear to be rounding errors on the Google Map App’s part when switching between coordinate formats (eg DDM to DD) which makes me even less sure who to trust. Any insights or experiences?

That’s what we feared, lol. I guess I’ll get a selection and start figuring out what we have around here. We actually see quite a few bisons in our suburban areas

Our team carries some in-field repair items. We have some o-rings for the nanos and bison-style tubes we use but would love to be ready to repair other sizes as well as a favor to other COs, especially for isolated caches! Can the community chime in about common sizes?

Lol! I have an old Tom-Tom. About 6 years ago I was in San Diego and using it to navigate to a store at night. It instructed me to turn left on a particular street. As I turned I realized one lane was blocked off by unlit barricades. I’d seen a “one-way” sign right before turning so figured the second lane was also mine to use and quickly switched lanes, barely noticing the minor bump of my tires as I did so. A moment later I realized that I was now driving down the light rail track and that the light approaching dead ahead was a trolly on a collision course. So you know that test that some states give new drivers to see if they can back up in a straight line? Yeah . . . Turns out that it IS a maneuver at which you might want to be proficient. Tom Tom didn’t miss a beat when I changed directions and advised me to “make a u-turn when possible and head East ...” I did not comply

Cropped it a bit to make the file smaller

Just for context, here’s an actual screenshot of Google directions to the “private” cup-de-sac. In this Satellite view you can at least see the fenceline and maybe realize the problem. The proper approach (as now indicated by a Parking Waypoint we added) is right before the parking lot for the Montessori. Sure, an observant cacher looking at this map should notice the fact that there appears to be (and is!) a fence between them and the cache, but I can’t see anything on this map that would make me think I was trespassing. edit: ...and apparently it won’t upload the screenshot over cellular, lol. Nor allow me to delete this now somewhat useless post.

I agree with your point in general, but most of the time now, we aren’t staring at the map app. When I’m urban caching alone: 1) Using my iPhone, I see a cache I want to find 2) I read the description, mainly looking for clues as to general location and hide type. I might even check out some logs. 3) I hit “start” and then the “Directions” arrow icon and select Google Maps. Maybe I check to see how close I can park to GZ. If the cache is described as a P&G then I probably don’t even look. 4) I begin driving while LISTENING to the directions. 5) while driving I would hopefully notice any warning signage, but if I’m maneuvering through residential roads I'm not overly analyzing each turn. 6) once I’ve “Arrived” I may or may not glance again at the Google App map. More likely than not I’ll switch back to the Geocaching App so as to use its direction/distance indicators. I hop out and follow the directional line. Short of signage, gates, obviously walking into someone’s front yard, etc. I wouldn’t necessarily have any reason to question my direction of approach. my point is that while driving in an unfamiliar neighborhood, map reading skills aren’t really at play. Without some contraindication, I’d tend to trust my navigational app. When I’m traveling and ask Siri for directions to the nearest gas station, I don’t pull over and analyze the route. I wouldn’t challenge it unless I saw something while driving that raised concerns. That’s just how most people use navigational software, not a failure of responsibility. The problem is that Geocaches are seldom at an actual address and the map app just gets you as close as it can on the road, which DOES require us to be a bit more aware.

There’s also the definition of “Tresspass” to consider. If you are navigating to the address of a trailer to visit the occupant, that’s not Trespassing. These are “private” roads but there aren’t “No Trespassing” signs, although there are signs forbidding door-to-door sales, etc. The directions from Google park you at the end of a cul-de-sac. The field between you and the cache IS private property intended for the use of the trailer park tenants. No one is going to get arrested for walking out there, but they could be rightfully asked to leave and the management doesn’t want random people wandering around - and again you can’t reach the cache from here anyway! To clarify, this HASN’T happened yet, I was just flabbergasted to see the directions provided and the potential. I’ll admit that if I’m caching alone, I follow Google Maps since I’m driving. If I’m unfamiliar with an area, how would I know how I’m “supposed to” approach GZ? Sure I don’t intentionally pass No Trespassing signs, and I expect that a cache named after a City Park will be IN the public space of that park, but if I’m led to a cul-de-sac with an open field beyond, and the cache is indicated across that field, I wouldn’t have a clear way to know there was anything amiss - if I hadn’t read it in the description!

Thanks for all the ideas. I hadn’t thought of actually modifying cache type to avoid this issue, it’s something to consider for future hides. I think I’ll start checking where the road map apps are actually sending people to get to the cache before submitting it. in this case the manager of the property is a friend so even if it were an issue it wouldn’t lead to a bad rap for Geocaching. I did adjust the description and provide a Parking Waypoint. its just funny because I’d considered a number of spots around this area BECAUSE my connection to the trailer park management would make access and maintenance easy and open. But they are trying to fight constant incursion of “riff raff” into the trailer park itself. Having us decidedly oddball folks in the mix wouldn’t be good for anyone. This seemed like the perfect spot since it was easily accessible from City (public) property but placed on a privately owned fenceline that I had access to. It cracked me up that Google then had people driving all the way through the trailer park, parking in a private cul-de-sac, walking through a private field, and still ending up on the wrong side of the fenceline to reach the cache anyway! Lol

Yeah. And I think a lot of us exploring types have had the experience of caching or even just hiking in some area and you come out at a fenceline with “No Trespassing” signs and somehow you’ve gotten on the wrong side We use the App for most urban hunts and plug coordinates into the Garmin when we need extra accuracy or are in the woods and might loose signal to the iPhone. On the app we toggle between maps - street and satellite view. The fenceline at the Cache we just hid is obvious on the satellite image but a street map or topo doesn’t let you see structures like that and the nearest street might not allow access.

I posted my “D’oh” comment as you posted this wise reply. Thanks

I just had a D’oh! moment and realized one option would be to post additional waypoint for parking ... that still requires the cacher to notice and select that option so I’m still curious about others’ ideas.

So we just had a hide published that is placed on a fenceline at the back of a public park. The opposite side of that fence line belongs to a trailer park. The problem is that if you click on the Google Maps directions from the App it takes you to a cul-de-sac inside the trailer park instead of the roadside parking in front of the City Park. That’s the wrong side of the fenceline to find the cache, and could bring unwanted traffic into the trailer park. The management is aware of the cache and permitted placement on their fence line - but with the idea that it was accessible from the public side. We’ve tried to be clear in our description, but notice that fewer and fewer cachers seem to read even shorter descriptions. Any ideas how to mitigate this problem?