TheCallanCrew

I expect that you may find that doing a thing is quite a bit different than merely reading about a thing . I would encourage you to explore all the possibilities of the hobby...including collectable trinkets that you choose to trade. After a while you may find that you want a "brand" trinket that you choose to leave as a signature item in caches . When you find a few regular caches with these collectibles it will be clear what I mean here. So, until you get out there I would not discount the added value of trading over and above that of the hunt/hike/discovery/adventure/comraderie. Many folks enjoy both . The Puzzle/Multi is a common combination . People find them quite a challenge. We have several in NC and I have two of my own (will be three soon). Good ones are difficult to think up , but some people really crave this genre, so by all mean "go for it." Good luck with your New Year of geocaching for real . The Callan Crew Patriarch

Thanks for sharing. Indeed. Here here for good coordinates. We recall some beauties where the coordinates were way off , and after several trips we finally reviewed all the logs to find a few entries where some nice folks left us waypoint breadcrumbs . Keep the breadcrumbs coming in log entries on those drifty coordinate caches. They are life savers . We do not much care for the "no clue for you" or leaving no hint. However, if confessions are good for the soul...I must say that we do leave bad Haiku or encrypted riddles as hints every now and then. Well, perhaps not riddles, but we do employ plays on words, puns and esoteric references in line with the cache name or theme. We find these rather charming, but are aware that not everyone appreciates Haiku...particularly bad Haiku .

Care to trade yours for an 8yr old that usually maxes out at 700ft? He's actually gone a few miles when there were other kids to distract him, but that's generally the exception, not the rule. Wouldn't trade my 3 kids for the world. Although, one of the 3 year old twins may likely rival your 8 year old in a few years . (He just cannot keep up with his twin sister and older brother on our group outings.) However, put him on a playground and he suddenly finds bursts of energy . Who knows, a lot can change from 3 to 8...

Thanks for the thoughts. Glad your Dad is doing better now. We have one of those rubber chickens out there as a TB ourselves (Vulcan Squab TB). They are indeed a hoot . Thanks also for the vote of confidence and for seeking our caches . Happy Holidays. The Callan Crew Patriarch

We definitely concur...to a point. Good stuff attracts...bad stuff repels. And, all would (we hope ) agree that the initial stock of the cache is most certainly the responsibility of the cache owner. One could also go so far as to say that a periodic quality check of contents might also be expected of cache owners . If contents are not living up to expectations, then trade up some of the also rans during the next maintenance check . Also, although mentioned briefly in another topic thread, having a mixture of stuff for both kids and adults will encourage more adults caching alone to trade. And, No, we do not expect you to play with McD toys as an adult... Thanks for the ideas.

Trinket cache migration might prevent trinket rot...just depends on the trinket and whether the breath of fresh air helps or not . Gee, I was appreciating your mind and enjoying our repartee. White flag it is then. Guilt, no guilt, it is a personal thing. Certainly, do not feel any guilt on my account...only if you violate your own conscience. As to a shrivelled soul...believe me, your soul will survive to cache again . Personally, I would find it hard to believe that anyone feels guilty about a nearly free game, but there you have it. Where else can you get exercise, a sense of accomplishment, and visit new places for a few bucks a trip? Life is short...don't be cheap is a good motto . Happy Holidays...may the New Year bring you many exciting finds. The Callan Crew Patriarch

Wow! 18 miles . I don't even know if I could hike 18 miles . I did a 10 mile up in PA on a cache once and ached for 2 days . A good 6 miler is about our limit and, having tested it, my 7 year old has a range of 8 miles. However, he will be house-bound for a day recovering afterwards. Thanks for sharing. The Callan Crew Patriarch

Whoa. This is a a stretch. It would only be true if (1) Almost nobody traded, and (2) all items acquired through trade were retained and not used as swag in another cache, and (3) all items had an equal probability of being acquired through trade. Actually, your logic and argument fails, despite your implied expertise at debate . Permit a bit of a refinement and clarification: Many caches are located in wooded areas . Despite being waterproof (hopefully, waterproof ), cache contents over time begin to take on the odor of the surrounding areas . (Fact) Thus, left alone and in the woods without trades or with but few trades, caches will become negatively affected (by the musty odor). Unless one likes the aforementioned odor. Items #2 and #3 of your argument really have little bearing on the original premise (proper analysis is a one-cache consideration, apples-to-apples, etc.) . However, cache aging, which is the central premise behind the assertion to which you object, does depend on not enough people trading to circumvent the natural tendency of cache contents to age. Although this is certainly less than all as you suggest . Certainly a content cache (not log-only) can be seeded with only one item , many would consider this a lame initial cache set-up. (I certainly would.) Hopefully, the intent of the original "TNLN Rant" was to reduce this occurance. Although we have encountered sparsely stocked caches, I cannot recall a non-micro that was stocked with only one item when we found it.

Oh yes, definitely. And, I am finding the responses very interesting, educational and informative. Quite a refreshing forum experience. Yes, I have heard Tube Torture is a nearby must do. My eldest is not yet up to it. Soon though, we plan on getting the skateboard, gloves, etc. etc. and making a day of it. Shame about the Carolina Coastal Challenge...definitely our favorite thus far. Thanks for sharing. The Callan Crew Patriarch

I think they mean they just won't write TNLN. I doubt you're causing many people to switch teams. I don't trade often but I do leave nice long logs. As I mentioned in another post...my experience with forums is that very few people change a viewpoint. I shall accept no credit for causing anyone to as you say, "switch sides." And, yes, I well understood the possible interpretation that you suggest. One would like to hope... People convince themselves of whatever they choose to do. Sometimes the written word helps them examine some notions that they might not otherwise. Glad that you trade every now and then.

Excellent! Very glad to hear it. Welcome back to the take something, leave something crowd. (Well, we hope you are back. )

Hmmm. Wonder if I screwed up with the lengthy list of questions . Perhaps this should have been several topics... Great ideas for a thought process. Thanks much for sharing. The Callan Crew Patriarch

Thanks for a local perspective (SC & NC). Also, just got Croteus' post that Carolina Coastal Challenge was "discovered." It is our favorite as well and we would hate to see it remain de-activated. So we have: In NC GC60C9 Carolina Coastal Challenge GCKRRD Avian Gray Matter GCK8BW Bonnet’s Revenge In SC GCM2K7 The Forty Acre Enigma GCGA6A The Mother of All Caches Part I - Upstate Ramble (part 1 of 4)

But, what do you, personally, like? Let's get specific.

Excellent, thanks for sharing . For some favorites in Tenn, we have: For must hit theme caches, GCKP0N The Working Man For memories, GC317D Get Your Feet Wet For silliness, GCKEE0 Code Name "Chicken Walk" For location, GC80F2 Stones River Greenway Cache QUALITY Vote...keep them dry. Keep, em coming.

We do not much participate in forums...often have found them a terrific waste of time . Nevertheless, two topics were pointed out to us by caching friends in which we did participate: "TNLN Rant" and "Cache Placing Limitations." After this experience, we sense that despite the fun that folks are having there is some growing angst and frustration out there about cache quality . So, we want to open up a topic about QUALITY. We understand that their are different levels of players and that people seek different things out of the hobby/sport and this is OK. What are three of your favorite caches and what made them so? What were three items that you took from a cache that you either kept or remember fondly? What characterizes for you a cache with quality contents? What characterizes for you a quality cache hide location? What do you look for in a cache description and/or log before seeking a cache? What do you do when you find a less than stellar cache? Have you hidden any caches? If you did, what sort of thought process went into your cache hiding effort? Do you have a geocaching hero or role model that consistently hides excellent caches? In addition to descriptions, logs, terrain and difficulty ratings, should we consider a quality of experience rating? Does quality mean different things for a micro, verses a regular cache, verses say a multi-cache? Do you like series caches and prefer them over multi-caches? Do you seek special cache experiences to commemorate reaching a find threshold like 100, 200, 1000? Your thoughts may give rise to ideas that help clarify for many what makes a quality cache. It is often easier to reach a target when one knows what it is. May the New Year bring more quality caches. Cheers, The Callan Crew Patriarch

Good recommendation . I often wonder why people merely talk about things when they can affect better outcomes locally by acting. Your post demonstrates this. We often write posters directly to congratulate them on difficult finds or good trades. We have also found that a kind word regarding a TB helps keep them moving and a kind word to a TB owner is always appreciated. --> The line of discussion you quoted was unpersuasive because it contains faulty logic. People recognize faulty logic and become unconvinced. Having said this, I cannot say that I have found too many folks get convinced from online forums anyway. I was asked to post by a friend that felt that the topic could benefit from my ideas...so call him crazy. Now to the unpersuasive arguments you quoted. Let's analyze these...despite the OP having met his/her goal... #1: Cache contents degrade over time when three things occur: 1) People take items without leaving anything (reduces content) 2) People trade down (reduces quality) 3) People fail to trade (content ages or begins to take on odor and deteriorates, thus reducing quality) So, cache contents can, but must not necessarily degrade over time. #2: TNLNSL does not change the contents, but according to 3) above, this will reduce the quality of the contents. So, TNLNSL over time can affect a cache's contents over time. #3: Proper trading improves a cache's content, so the premise' conclusion rests only on down-trading, which is not considered proper. So, trading does not necessarily degrade cache contents...only improper trading. #4: TNLNSL robs others of a freshened cache and over time, according to 3) above can negatively affect a cache. Thus, it is a selfish act. The groups in question are the TNLNSL crowd verses the non-TNLNSL crowd. Both attempt to rationalize choosing to "take something, leave something" or ignoring the rule. It is an interesting debate, but I do not think that many will chage sides. It is simply too easy to TNLNSL for many in that camp to justify the additional time, pleasure and joy, and surprise that they could give another geocacher with a change in habit. Perhaps if online logs and follow-up emails begin to mention specific content and the experience geocachers have in find them, then trades will resume and become a highly respected part of the game again.... We can only hope

You're right--I plumb missed the response. Sorry to beat a dead horse. Congratulations to the OP for being a good sport. It's commendable to be open to persuasion; it's remarkable to acknowledge a change of mind in a rough and tumble public forum. In honor of Techno Team, Team Mule Ears hearby pledges to increase its trade-to-TNLNSL-ratio. Excellent! Welcome back to the trinket side of the house.

You clearly made presumptions...denying it does not make it so. Again, we have our opinions. "Those in the know" -- what a crock and excuse for good rhetoric. This is called appealing to an unknown authority and is pure nonsense. No, I got it right. You merely believe otherwise, which is fine. You can TNLNSL all you like. Some of us will simply find it a selfish cop out when you do. No problems. Lots of people have fun finding the caches and don't even log their finds for months, if at all...they feel, what's the bother? This is not much different from TNLNSL...well, almost...it is a bit more selfish. Now the issue of TNLNSL, as I understood the OP post, applied primarily to non-micro or log-only caches. Clearly, a very small cache has no room and we all must merely sign the log. Some of us will even leave small collector's pins in the small micros that can enclose them. Call us crazy, but it is all part of the game.

Or flogged. Thanks... you made good points... I hope I helped expand on them. The bottom line is you will start failing to have fun when you start to push your preferences on how others can have fun. Why do that to yourself? Well now, you seem to be the one presuming . First, I do not wish you to forgo gravy at all. If you want to hike, then hike...just hike. Second, if you cannot "get" the ideas in the post then one seems hard pressed to see how you could "appreciate" the salient ideas in the post. Your post indicated that you missed several. No one is dictating . All are opining. Forums are for opinions . You have one...your signature presumes that people are failing to have fun. How preposterous and presumptuous? It, too, is but an opinion . Take something, leave something is pretty clear. It is about trade, swap and keeping contents rotating. Take something without leaving something was not part of our topic. (How you made it such escapes us all. ) Such behavior is not in keeping with the rules, but I am certain that it does occur. It is selfish when it does. You did expand on the points I had made, but I cannot say that the expansion was much on course with the original topic of TNLNSL. However, the rhetoric did keep the ball bouncing as it were. As to pushing preferences. I realize that people will do as they will. You will. My preferences have nothing to do with it . You can continue to TNLNSL and I shall continue to feel it selfish . I can continue to take something and leave something or simply leave something and you can feel it selfish . Your opinion of my way of playing in no way diminishes my fun. One can only hope that you will continue to have fun regardless of what others think of TNLNSL. Lastly, you presume that I and others fail to have fun which is preposterous . You also presume that we are "doing something to ourselves" which is equally as nuts . It is no wonder that you have a lunatic in your head. Let the lunatic out for a while and just "be." It would be a 60s act that you could appreciate. Perhaps you might notice that merely living is an act of success and that fun is also part of this thing we call life .

The logical progression of what you have observed in two years is that caches will grow and grow and good placement locations will be taken. One can only hope that pride, personal or otherwise, will compel players to hide with skill, stock with care, log with panache and trade with enthusiasm as they do grow. One saving grace is that you will not be able to find them all, as placements will grow to outpace a person's ability to find them. So, what others write about a cache will be how players differentiate one from another. Eventually, there will be a steady state reached and then quality will force the "also ran" caches to be removed. It is unclear under what circumstances that a cache should be archived. Should a good location be reserved? Is the locale borrowed for a period of time and then it gets freed up for a new cache by someone who reserved it? Sounds a bit like domain names on the Internet. Should we create a blackmarket that deals in prime cache locations? I do jest, but you get the idea. Should we begin looking at cache traffic to determine archival candidates? Some caches because of their difficulty to terrain do not attract beginner players. These caches may go a month without a visit. Are these to be archived to free up the location for a more conspicuous cache? You have posited an interesting question but it has complex ramifications in the long term. Right now the rules are simple. Chaotic systems have a way of exhibiting surprisingly intelligent behavior. The quality of caches in your area may improve on their own as new players in your area enter the game. Cheers, The Callan Crew Patriarch

Personally, since we are dealing with preferences here , I would prefer that people be less selfish about what they want and more considerate of other cachers that follow them . So, for caches with interesting and varied items, my preference is that the jaded TNSNSL crowd not bother seeking them . But, that is a preference. The second question, as posed, is about people visiting or not visiting on the basis of their log/trade behavior. People who actively play the will visit a cache near them with an interesting description regardless of their log/trade behavior. So people will visit caches anyway . Others will do what they will. You cannot police log/trade behavior, nor does anyone have the time to try. The important thing to get is that caches and their content should evolve over time. In this way they remain fresh. And, most of us know that over time the stuff in a cache begins to smell like the cache surrounds (many in not the most aromatic locales, if you know what I mean ). So, be a pal and add some items if you want none or switch those that you like. Heck, use the trinkets like untracked travel bugs and move them around if you like. Most people can find something to contribute to a cache other than TNLNSL . True TNLNSL leaves no impact...but leaving no impact is a selfish act when we are speaking of keeping a cache active, interesting and alive. NOTE: Leaving no impact on the environment and cache site is a considerate act. Thus, leave a setting as you found it, but keep the game itself dynamic. TNLNSL is about "me me me" rather than about those that follow (others others others). To the topic of caches that are not exciting... Recall that it is about the journey rather than the destination. Life itself has its slow and fast moments. Not every moment is exciting. If you rarely find exciting caches...create an exciting cache . It may surprise you to know that people are not all the same and that what you find exceedingly dull another may find exciting and visa verse. Also, if you find a cache less than stellar, then send a private message to the cache creator(s) and let them know how it might be improved . Not all feedback need be public or logged . Sometimes, looking around a cache site for a less obvious hide and providing this info would improve the same cache for others that follow. Cheers, The Callan Crew Patriarch

We have 3 kids and 139 finds and know both newbies and the 1000+ veterans of the game. The essence of the game is the journey not the destination. I recall an experience of hunting one of WE4NCS's micros with my (6 year old at the time) eldest son that puts this topic in perspective. It was our second time out on this particular micro and we had been at it about 40 minutes (typical for WE4NCS's micros) when two teenagers happened by to ask us what we were up to on the ravine. We explained that we were geocaching (modern day treasure hunting) and were currently seeking a cache. They got interested and asked what types of treasure we find. I said that it was less about the treasure than about the experience of seeking and finding something hidden. Although, Addison, my son, said that it is always great fun to explore the items that one finds in a cache. They asked if we got to keep the treasure. We replied that for each item that we take that we must leave an item behind. The teenagers found this a bit "raw" until we pointed out that by doing so it keeps the treasure constantly renewed. And, we never knew who might be the next finder of the treasure. They wandered off as did my thoughts. It is true that the kids like the treasures and it is a rare veteran that likes swapping trinkets. Although we have taken and left our fair share of McD toys we have also purchased many unique toys in large quantities to initially stock in our caches as well as to trade. We also purchase travel bugs, geocoins and a fair number of geocaching collector's buttons and patches to trade as well. Additionally, we leave executive audio tapes, inspirational quotation and story books and desktop sculptures for the adults. I, as the patriarch and head cacher, try to stock a cache to be interesting for adults and for children. I believe that the cache hider reads the online logs (we try to hide 10% of the number of caches that we find) and enjoys the joy and frustrations other gamers have with their caches. So, signing the log is a courtesy that should be taken seriously. TNLNSL is part of the game that we have come to expect from veterans, but we are dissappointed when we see that in a cache that is full of interesting items. The $1 being bandied about is nonsense. Spend what you can afford and wish to contribute. Try to leave behind something interesting. If it is a McD toy, make it an interesting one, not a lame, broken one. Leave items in good condition. Hit a Dollar Store and spend a few bucks. Drop by a flea market and pick up some interesting items. I never keep track of what we spend, it is a hobby and we spend what we can afford, but often it is above $1. As to McD toys. Kids like them. So what if they come with meals? Your kid went to Burger King and got a toy that mine has never seen. My kids got something from their grandmother that they played with for a while and want to trade for your BK toy. So what is the harm? I have a book of stories or quotes that you might find interesting and inspirational, so I leave it. You have an old Army patch that I might collect (I don't but you get the idea). The point is that you never know who will find the cache after you, make it worthwhile. As to collectibles...they are the nifty part of the game. I will never forget going to our first geocaching event (WE4NCS's 1000th find) and meeting a geocacher that had collected pins, buttons and namesakes from cachers all over the world. It was amazing. It was impressive. It made us realize what a global community that geocaching creates. So, you are jaded, do not have room for junk and live for the large numbers...slow down, take time on the logs, keep a backpack for geocaching filled with trade items. Think about those that follow. There will always be others with more finds and less finds. It is their journey, not yours. Help make their's enjoyable and hope that they do the same for your's. The Callan Crew Patriarch

After hearing that the 100th find is the most memorable, we sought the advice of many experienced geocachers to locate a very special multi near the beach or mountains of NC for our 100th find. By all accounts The Carolina Coastal Challenge cache is a thriller. When the Jeep TB got logged in our chosen cache two days before our departure we knew that Navigatus, the god of geocaching, had smiled upon us. We gallivanted up and down the NC coast, logging over 470 miles over two days before returning home. On our journey we encountered pirates, sharp cutlasses, skulls, several shrunken heads, cannons, gunpowder, a half dozen peg-legs, pints of ale, several monkeys and one really famished 14 foot alligator. We crossed sea, land and air. We heard sailing songs and battle cries. We were forced to walk the plank and learn to sail (paid for the lesson, of course). We even got stranded on an uninhabited island to boot. Dialing knobs, turning cranks we added and subtracted. We triangulated and paced. We circled and got lost…again. Alas, after many trials and tribulations (not the least of which was trying to secure a hotel room at 10PM on a Saturday night on the coast during the height of tourist season) we were awarded our prize. Yes indeedy, we swiped the highly coveted Jeep TB from our chosen cache! In its stead we launched our very own travel bug to commemorate our most memorable geocaching adventure and 100th cache find. Upon finding the stash and posing for photo ops, Addison, my six-year old fellow adventurer remarked, "Dad, this is the best day of my life so far. I am really happy you got your Jeep." Well, you cannot top that for a father and son weekend of geocaching. Thanks very much to Nittany Dave (who, BTW hid our very first cache and our very first micro cache find) for pointing us to The Carolina Coastal Challenge. Thanks also to CrotalusRex of T.S.M.Ex.T for taking such great pains to create such an excellent geocache. Thanks also to my wife, Lisa, for buying the 100th cache celebratory cake that Addison and I returned home to eat. Thanks to all of you who emailed us and posted messages about your favorite geocaches. The Callan Crew

We are told that a geocacher's 100th find is a very special milestone and we would like to make a trip out to either the NC mountains (Blowing Rock, Grandfather or Asheville) or the the Outer Banks or Wilmington to seek a memorable cache for our 100th find. We want a memorable find...but nothing extreme like Tube Torture or the sort. We like multis that end in a full sized cache with something to trade...possibly collectibles . We have done difficulty 4s and some level 3 or 4 terrains. Preferrably we would like the multi to contain less than five stages and include some reasonable distance that can be covered in a single dedicated outing. We also would like some unique or memorable containers or hides . We also have the additional constraint that the cache needs to be practical for my six year old regular caching assistant. My six year old has a maximum hiking distance of 8 miles . Any memorable caches in these areas that you believe meet the criteria that you would recommend for our 100th find? Thanks, The Callan Crew