EXMAN

I didn't read this whole topic, so i hope that i'm not repeating something that has already been said, but i have 2 comments / suggestions... 1 - it's been mentioned that most swag is for kids, but something that would be enjoyed by both kids and adults are the mini coins that are available...they're about the size of a quarter and they cost as little as 99 cents each. 2 - to prevent Swag from getting 'wet and nasty', it should probably be in a ziplock bag.

OK...... Here's my thoughts. When i was a new cacher, the most exciting thing for me was finding trackables, so i started to mostly target caches with trackables in them. I began to notice that VERY OFTEN, the trackables listed on the 'inventory' list, were NOT IN THE CACHE. This REALLY irked me, and i spent a lot of time, trying to solve the problem, but in a very childish way. I started accusing COs of not doing their job. I thought "how dare you have an inventory list that's not kept up to date? It's false advertising, and it's ALL your fault." But i found out that maintaining an inventor list, is NOT in their job discription. I also threw A LOT of blame at GS for not fixing the problem. After caching for a couple of years it's finally dawned on me that the TO is the solution to the problem. WE often don't manage our trackaables well AT ALL. I consider myself a trackables GURU. I've had over 6000 visits to my profile page from people looking for advice on trackables and yet my own trackables are not up to date. I probably have 30 trackables and i KNOW for a fact that some of them haven't been logged for months. How dare I, after throwing the blame at everyone within reach, not do the exact thing that i was whining about. The trackables pages have been showing that my trackable is in the cache for months now, and I haven't taken the time to look at the logs to try to determine whether it's there or not. This is what we should be doing. - Is it an inactive cache? If there haven't been very many 'found it' logs lately it could still be there, but wouldn't it be the right thing to do to write a note asking for the next cacher to check for it. - If it's an active cache, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to search the logs a bit? Often you'll find a note from a cacher saying that there NO trackables in the cache. In this is the case MARK YOUR TRACKABLE AS MISSING. This isn't the obituary for your trackable, because if it's found and logged by a cacher, it's instantly 'back in play'. - If you don't see any messages, write that note asking for the next cacher to check on it. If you don't get a response, write another note, or just mark it as missing, like i said, it goes right back into play with the next log entry. I think it's up to us TOs to monitor our trackables and mark them missing after a certain length of time. Also... I totally agree that it would be great if GS made the process of logging a 'retrieved' message on the same page as the 'found it' page, but experienced cachers, generally make the log entry in a timely manner, in spite of the cumbersome process. Mostly though..... those that DON'T log them as retrieved, are either newbies or geocoin thieves, and so making the process less cumbersome isn't going make much difference in these cases. It's obvious why the coin thieves don't make a log entry. With the newbies.... - some of them take the trackable thinking it's swag, so it won't ever get logged. - some of them either don't know how to make log entrys for trackables, or they are not even aware that it's a requirement. In these cases... once they place the trackable back into a cache, the next cacher to retrieve it will probably be able to get it back on track,[it's not that difficult]. BUT... a lot of these newbies either never cache again or there's a long period of inactivity, and this obviously creates problems. Just my 2 cents. Any questions, feel free to contact me. EXMAN

+1

How you are saying something positive when you have to say something not so postive of people that just sign the log and leave? You have no business passing judgement on them. If that is their idea of fun, let it be. Some people are short on time and want to find caches that was in their list to do. Is it like a goal of yours to troll everything I post? He asked a legitimate question. You basically passed judgement on those who decided to sign the log and not hang out. NT simply stated that those who signed and took off missed out on alot of fun. Didn't sound like judgement was being passed on anyone. Oh well, so much for the positive forum thread.. Don't bother with either one of them - they are always looking to start some crap on here. +100

How you are saying something positive when you have to say something not so postive of people that just sign the log and leave? You have no business passing judgement on them. If that is their idea of fun, let it be. Some people are short on time and want to find caches that was in their list to do. I believe the poster was just saying that they missed a good time. Kind of like leaving a concert early and missing the 'encore'. Or the leaving the fireworks early and missing the 'Grand Finale'

glittery Lynn still hands out his coins, or did last year, if it's a momento or a keepsake then I would just bring it to events to show people and have them log it. Otherwise, might be fun to set it traveling and see where it goes. Traveling? You're kidding right? just messin with ya, but i would NEVER send a coin out there. it's proxys all the way with me.

glittery

No offensive, but I honestly don't need your swag. And don't you think really cool stuff would just get traded down by folks happy to pull the item? You're just setting yourself up for disappointment that Chuck Norville didn't get to pick up your tire gauge. Kids on the other-hand can't go out and buy their own stuff. I'm not a fan of SWAG either. I DO enjoy finding trackables though.

Not being a nano fan, I've heard about micro-log rollers but have never used one. But I might consider leaving them as trade items. Is there a do-it-yourself version? Go to Princess Auto or some other place that sells small cotter pins. That's what I use for micro and nano log rollers. $5.99 for 144 in varying sizes. Thanks BR67. Here's what I've done, a cotter pin on a key ring. I'll put it in a small baggie and label it explaining what it is: Cool idea !

I like it too ! But only for TBs. Most coins are designed by for-profits companies, and most of them are cool. TBs are an individual effort and if it's exceptional, they deserve a favorite.

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong. Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses? are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved? Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG. AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it. Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening. I'll neither admit nor deny that it's happening. I will challenge your assumption that it's happening until I see some better documentation, not just your broad brush accusations on a public forum. I've planned lots of events professionally, and have a pretty good idea of what happens behind the scenes. And I was the co-chair of GeoWoodstock V one of the first Mega events ever. Why can't we all just ADMIT that IF this is happening IT IS WRONG. AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it. Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening. I think you hit the echo button instead of reply.

I for one, and i'm sure i'm not alone, have bought the coin, the Tee-shirt, the raffle tickets etc.... because i wanted to help pay for expenses. If i had known i was lining someone's pockets, i NEVER would have bought them. NOW i know better, but that's not good enough. EVERYONE needs to know. If someone opens a web site and starts selling geocoins, we know he's doing it to make a profit. If event organizers are in it for the money, they need to be up-front about it. THEN we're informed, and we can make INFORMED decisions about buying all the crap. We're being cheated. we're buying your crap, thinking that we're helping out. but we're being cheated. and if you're in it for the money, you've got some pretty BIG stones to get a hundred people to 'volunteer' to help you make money. Who do you think you are? GS ?

Go to the email I gave you with that info... While I did not say it was wrong in those words, I DID say there a bad people out there who do this kind of thing.... A reasonable discussion? I can only answer for myself... Prevent it? The only foolproof way is to ban events. They can make all the rules they want, but things get by. Always have, always will. Oh and the comment about going to the pub? I can buy 5oz of alcohol there, for the same price I can but the whole bottle retail. They pay less than retail. They are still making profit...but it's ok because we know they do? or because it's not geocaching? Say in the future geocaching grows much, much larger than it is today. Someone see's the market to travel to different cities and host events in them. Is it wrong for them to make money? If so how would it be different then any person who sells LnL's, ammo cans, bison tubes, and geocaching,com branded merchandise? If you sent me an email, i didn't get it. When we go to the pub to buy a beer we KNOW that they're making a profit. When we go to an event, the average cacher assumes that NO ONE is making a profit. It sounds like we need to inform cachers that, if it's not ALREADY happening, they can EXPECT that in the future, most major events will be held by FOR PROFIT event organizers.

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong. Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses? are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved? Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG. AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it. Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening. I'll neither admit nor deny that it's happening. I will challenge your assumption that it's happening until I see some better documentation, not just your broad brush accusations on a public forum. I've planned lots of events professionally, and have a pretty good idea of what happens behind the scenes. And I was the co-chair of GeoWoodstock V one of the first Mega events ever. Why can't we all just ADMIT that IF this is happening IT IS WRONG. AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it. Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

what do you mean? are you saying that you KNOW what event i'm speaking of. and i don't think that only one event is involved here. Oh the Flying Pig sees more than you think..... I think not

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong. Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses? are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved? Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG. AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it. Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

These ones? As for the guidelines regarding events, you are allowed to charge for stuff like food, shirts, coins, whatnot. And I'm sure-your vies or mine- if it get to the point where they say they'll charge $20 for a burger or $50 for a coin or some other outrageous prices then GC might step in. But as long as you don't have to pay to attend it will remain. And you might bring up registration fees; Those can be charged-you pay you get a bag of SWAG, maybe reduced rates at a hotel, or coupons for restaurants, maybe get a coin, or meal ticket. You don't pay, you still can attend, just not get that stuff. As for "Joe cacher" Well I thinks most serious and long time cachers know what it costs ( about) for coins and stuff like that, and they either don't care, are they believe prices are fair. it sounds like you're saying that there is NO accountability and unless GS thinks that you're obviously ripping people off, they're not going to get involved. I don't like it. It leaves us wide open to people that are more interested in making a profit than they are with the game of geocaching and the geocachers that play it. When we go to a meet and greet at a local pub with our local geo group, we KNOW that noone is walking away with a pocket full of money.....and when we go to other events whether they be county, state or national, most cachers are thinking it the same. Anything that we're charged for, we assume is priced to cover only the expenses of the event. NOT OVERPRICED so that someone can make a profit.

what do you mean? are you saying that you KNOW what event i'm speaking of. and i don't think that only one event is involved here.

So you had issues with an event/ organizers...What's the full story? it's an up-coming event, so NO i haven't had issues with anyone.

Please don't get mad at me, but it sounds like we're making excuses for the event hosts doing these things. i'd bet that they wouldn't sell these things if they weren't confident that they would come out ahead. and, no, i DON'T have to buy these things, but hundreds of TRUSTING cachers DO. And we're 'dancing' around my questions here. anyone care to take a shot at them?

- sponsors Who give prizes? You're gonna complain that you get free stuff? I'm sure they'll let you pay the prize you win. Or they provide a BBQ, or Food, or place for you to get out of the rain? Fine, then be hungry and get wet. - geocoin sales We are making some coins up. If we sell them ALL at one event, then we might-might make enough to cover the cost of the propane, and the coins we gave away. The rest of that cost is the cost of the coin. No one is making you bu coins at events. I don't. - pathtag sales Again-not everyone is into pathtags. You don't have to buy them at events unless you want them. - tee-shirt sales see the above two posts... - meal tickets OK. YOU host an event, and provide a free steak dinner. You don't want to pay for a meal, bring PB&J. - donations It costs money to put on large events. Venue rental, propane for a BBQ, food, prizes. This money will most likely be going back into the geocaching community. - raffles See all the above posts. Unless there are vendors present, I'll bet the money goes bcak to the geocaching community. At our event last year, we had a FREE BBQ, and also FREE hotdogs at the CITO the next day, we gave away tons of prizes. I myself donated a years PM. We had a cacher pay for propane for a BBQ out of his pocket. We had companies like Landsharkz donate stuff, we managed to give away 4 GPSr's. We also had one prize that we charged for the tickets. It took a lot of work to do so we recovered cost. ALL of this for free this year. We had an optional donation, and took in a bit of money. We would have made more if we went to work that day and donated a day's paycheck. We also needed money to run our registered non profit club. Fee's to the government, pay for a website etc. To be fair we had ONE vendor, who was from out of town. It was better, because that's stuff we wanted anyway, and we saved money by not paying for shipping. No-ones making you pay, you can just show up and find caches. But you do have to pay for extras, and that's true for everything. The fancy car costs more. The name brand clothes cost more. So really who is profiting? the geocaching community as a whole is profiting....got a problem with that? It sounds like you put on a really nice event and that any extra funds would go back into the caching community. This is what most cachers would expect. So......it looks like yours is not the event i'm speaking of.

Do you have ALL the numbers? There may be a lot of expense that are not obvious. No i don't But, in my opinion, it doesn't take a genius to see a profitable venture in the making. But my questions are - is it in keeping with GS guidelines? - do you think 'Joe cacher' would be OK with it if he knew?

There is no reason to spend any money on any of those things if you don't want to. You would get your smilie regardless. But, from a personal standpoint, all the more reason I would sign the log and get out of there as fast as possible. you're totally correct. but it still upsets me. there will be hundreds of cachers going for the whole package, and i'm betting that they would be SHOCKED if they knew that they were being overcharged, just so the event organizers can walk away with pockets full of money. We tend to be a trusting group of people. Especially when you think of the events hosts as your friends.

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event? In these days of .... - sponsors - geocoin sales - pathtag sales - tee-shirt sales - meal tickets - donations - raffles i think more and more events are becoming 'for-profit' ventures. i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000 That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS. Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

are any of your coins activated, with proxys out there? and you would want them sold to a stranger that might even delete previous logs. i can accept negativity from joe blow forum member, but it's hard to swallow from a moderator. maybe you guys should moderate under one name and post under another. you're right that it's everyone's right to make their own decision RE their trackables. But i have a valid argument here. most people don't have a will of any kind, so they certainly haven't thought about passing on their TBs. So my thought of adopting out TBs when you're getting out of the game for WHAT EVER reason is not something to throw barbs at. there are tens of thousands of trackables out there waiting to 'get back in the game' and the only people with a valid argument against this would/should be those making money off of selling new ones.