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I understand your points, and you should try to understand that your last sentence was my intentions to begin with, merely trying to find ways to improve the game without causing displeasure towards the people who know and love the game. Though a couple lines in this reply sound quite devious, and that if you did do what your saying, you would be misunderstanding the entire concept and hurting others who wouldnt even have that intention but who merely want to enjoy or try something. The last thing id want to see is geocaching being changed in a negative or drastic way, and thats not near what I was proposing in trying to understand everyones thoughts on this concept

Good luck with that. There isn't even consensus on the FTF side game, and the question of who found a cache first is much more straight-forward than the question of how to rank geocachers. Why should I have to put a code on my stash notes? Some owners may not want to bother. Others may think the competition for rankings has a negative effect on the game, and want nothing to do with it. You may not understand why a CO would opt out, but they will. Not everyone will want to play the ranking game (however it might be defined). Why should I have to put a "no code cache" disclaimer in my cache description? But I still see problems with any side game that requires cache owners to provide some sort of verification code to support it. good questions, and they would be very prominent ones if this idea became popular. What you quoted I was asked in full "Can I as a cache owner opt out of this system without being harassed by people who need me to leave a code in my caches so they can play their side game?" I stated that the CO would leave those three little words "No Code Cache" only so that they wouldnt have people messaging them and wondering if there was a code or not. I can understand where you're coming from though, it seems if this side feaure were to come into play many would be relucatant to do this, though writing three words on the description doesnt seem hard to me, and were talking hypothetically here, so if it became popular and the CO couldnt write three words saying they dont want to participate which would also make it so they wouldnt be heckled by side game players, well they would be digging their own wouldnt they?

if the point system were set up so that micros gave negative points, I might support this idea. I know what you mean, in the past few days ive spent a few hours underneath ivy plants and in parks scratching my head for hours while trying not to look like I should be in the police watch list, all while trying to find something smaller than my hand. Have you seen a doctor? well, I may need an optometrist because the CO putting all these geocaches in ivy bushes is making me question my vision. If i saw a doctor I probably know what he would tell me, lay off the micros for a couple days while you still have your sanity.

Like you I know many who have lost interest, but most of them left geocaching because it became too much of a numbers game and competitions, rankings, points etc became too important and because there are too many geocaches and geocachers around which causes a lot of problems at least in my country. In the early years one could easily hide caches at certain locations which should not receive too much traffic, but nowadays this became very difficult. I'm against anything which strengthens what has happened throughout the last years. Then also the last remaining old-timers will leave geocaching. What is happening on the munzee site clearly shows me to which unfortunate effects point systems and various sorts of ranking systems lead to. This is definitely nothing I want to have on geocaching.com. The effect of powertrails is already bad enough. I'm not interested into attracting even more people into the activity. The natural growth is already too high anyway. Cezanne This post needs to get pinned somewhere. Of course, you should expect to be accused of being closed minded, defensive and perhaps a cave dweller. I understood your post completely, and it wasnt meant to be disrespectful to you, although you came across in a decent way despite the second paragraph, unlike this post^. Im just trying to raise valid points as is everybody else, I understand what you were trying to say, just didnt see why you had to question my legitimacy of being a geocacher based of the number of cache finds I have logged on this site. It proves my point.

Like you I know many who have lost interest, but most of them left geocaching because it became too much of a numbers game and competitions, rankings, points etc became too important and because there are too many geocaches and geocachers around which causes a lot of problems at least in my country. In the early years one could easily hide caches at certain locations which should not receive too much traffic, but nowadays this became very difficult. I'm against anything which strengthens what has happened throughout the last years. Then also the last remaining old-timers will leave geocaching. What is happening on the munzee site clearly shows me to which unfortunate effects point systems and various sorts of ranking systems lead to. This is definitely nothing I want to have on geocaching.com. The effect of powertrails is already bad enough. I'm not interested into attracting even more people into the activity. The natural growth is already too high anyway. Cezanne This is a great example of a constructive post, and i really apreciate your response. This post really helped me see the overall mentality and spirit of it. I am against the growth and and mainstreaming of the hobby so I know what you mean, like everyone here the last thing id want to see is the hobby drastically changed into something that doesnt see the true spirit of geocaching

It's sad that people who disagree with you get such a combative response. Not the definition of 'open-minded'. The responses here seem to be: "Nope. Bad idea." So, if you were open-minded, you would accept that. Checked Gran Poobah, and I'm still #27 in New Jersey. I think I've been in that spot for quite a while. I'm not a competitive geocacher. I do this for fun. It's a great hobby. But it's a hobby, not a competitive sport. And open-minded people would accept that, instead of being combative with people who disagree with them. Other point brought up by others is define your local region'. Most of my finds are in New Jersey. But, I also have a number of finds in New York, Maine and Pennsylvania. I'm probably still high on the list of finds in New York City, but only because I've been at this for almost nine years. Is that my local region?? One definition of 'open-minded' is 'taking No for an answer'. That does not seem to be accepted here. Anyone who disagrees with you (and that seems to be most of the responses) gets a combative response. Try being open-minded! Answer seems to be: Nope! Not interested. Not at all, im seeing everybodys point and thanking them for it, you may not have read half my posts. Most of the posters here i agree with and have shown clearly that I do, I cant just jump wagon as you may want me to do, its a discussion, and many here have misinterpreted my intentions on these ideas, Its not being close minded, since im seeing all of these points of views, while others are merely looking at a post and saying "no, this is how it has been and how it always should be case closed"

I think a better way to build some friendly competition is to start by building friendships among local geocachers. Organize events, promote a local forum, etc., and then people will figure out ways to have a friendly competition about whatever aspects of the game they enjoy. Maybe it's maintaining a high average difficulty stat, or a high average terrain stat. Maybe it's maintaining a streak, or logging the caches in kablooey's puzzle challenge before their friends. Maybe it's offering a geocoin to anyone who completes a "death march" (12+ miles, 1500+ feet elevation gain, 1+ cache found). Maybe it's organizing something as elaborate as the GBA's annual Venona ACTIVITIES. But this kind of thing happens when people get to know each other, not when Groundspeak decides to add a new feature to their site. Why smilies? Why not difficulty/terrain stars? Or favorites points? Or longest streaks? Or cache types? Or finds per unit time? Or ratio of finds to DNFs? Or ratio of "redeemed" DNFs to "unredeemed" DNFs? Or geocaching "karma points" (using any of the various definitions that have been devised)? Or... whatever else? How do you decide what the basis for the "friendly competition" (i.e., official ranking) should be? And what if the code goes missing? Or if the cache owner never put one in the cache to begin with? Or if the cache owner put the wrong one in the wrong cache? Can I as a cache owner opt out of this system without being harassed by people who need me to leave a code in my caches so they can play their side game? Your right in some aspects and raise good questions, 1st paragrah; I never said it was the best way to meet local geocachers or have friendly competition, but rather that it was a way, I was trying to throw positives out there, both are ways to offer competition, your just giving an alternative. 2nd paragraph; Yes I was rather vague on the criteria for the point system, I was just trying to throw the main idea out there to people to see what they thought and even put an "etc" to leave to peoples imagination as you offered some great ideas. I think timed points should be out of the question as that would make it "too competitive" because some people just like to find them, and take their time, whereas some might do five in one day and stop for the week, others might do one a day for a week and still manage to get home and see they are higher on the rankings (assuming they did the same caches) travel bugs, terrain and many other ideas could be added to get points, some like this idea others aren't too keen, im just trying to get the general consensus. 3.Yes as a cache owner you can opt out, I dont see what the point would be since it would already be an optional game, and a code could be put on the "stop this is a geocache" paper. But yes you could write on the cache description simply "no code cache" or something like that and nobody would harass or ask you if there's a code. Thank you for the time you took to write your post

So it's not just a case of "I'm not interested in this idea and won't pay attention to it if it were to be implemented". Agreeing with T.D.M., I'd say that a move in this direction would change the fundamental nature of the website. Maybe not for you and me, but anybody who starts AFTER that point would be presented from 'day one' with a "SEE YOUR RANKING" banner and there you go, GC's a competitive endeavor. Another problem is in figuring out what the ranking will be based on. Stricly 'FIND COUNT?' Percentage of 'FINDs' to 'DNFs'? 'FINDS' compared somehow to time caching? I could easily come up with a dozen more 'meaningful' stats on which to compare people, but unless YOUR meaningful stat is the same as MY meaningful stat, the ranking is, well, meaningless. Would you have GS rank us by ALL the stats and let you pick the one you want? That's a LOT of server cycles to spend every time someone displays a profile page for virtually no gain. How would you define your 'regions'? I live near the southern border of Ulster County, New York, US. My caching buddies are here in Ulster, down in Orange County and over in Dutchess County. The 'region' I would be interested in covers more than just the County, otherwise the ranking is meaningless to me. Someone I know lives 20 miles north, smack dab in the middle of Ulster. HE considers HIS region to be ONLY Ulster County because he doesn't know anybody and rarely caches in other areas. The point is that along with the definition of the specific ranking criteria, the definition of the ranked REGION would ALSO be different for each person. If GS were to come up with a generic way to do it, my guess is it wouldn't be meaningful to the vast majority of cachers. I'll bet, however, that you could do this for your own self-defined map region through GSAK or one of the other tools that can access GS' data. (I have no idea what I'm talking about here!) So, learn the tools, write the app, and share it with the rest of us. Good luck! I really appreciate the time you took to make that reply, it was really constructive compared to the ones which made them seem afraid of change. My idea was based on the criteria of point based geocaching I guess, either that or smiley based, point based would be through multi cache being larger amount while micro being smaller amount and etc, time and dnf wouldnt matter. While im not trying to throw geocaching into a 360 and make everyone riot, there are many varieties of people from young to old, if some people like a competeitive type of play, why not give it to them, it wouldnt have to make the other have to play like that, some people like the journey while others like the destination, and thats why some people lose interest. Im the same type of cacher you guys are, but im just trying to see from eveybody's perspective. We've had almost this exact discussion not to long ago. It's not that people are afraid of change. It more that we have evaluated exactly what we think this change will bring to the game and to be honest, most of us are afraid that it would probably not be good. I, and I'm sure most of the others that you think are defensive, simply have a "if it's not broke, don't fix it" type attitude. I am very curious about something however, and I don't think that I have ever brought this up in a forum discussion. Either you have found a lot of caches and not bothered to log them online, or you really haven't geocached that much. I'm really curious as to why you would want to turn geocaching into a competition when you don't seem like one that would participate to the point where you would compete. Have you played the game enough to decide that it needs to be changed? That is an honest question, not a slam at your find count. To address another point. Many people take up hobbies and then lose interest after awhile. That is just the nature of people. Some leave, others join. Trying to change the basic idea of geocaching in order to appeal to everyone will never work and it will just fragment the game to the point that it's not interesting to anyone. While I appreciate your reply and you raise some very valid points, your curiosity is completely irrelevant to the topic. I understand your first point completely, but if everyone thought that way, well we would be living in caves. Im always open to new ideas and think anything can be improved. Im not the ambassador for this idea, and I dont necessarily support it so I dont know why my credibility as a geocacher should be in this discussion, but still, I think you missed the mark in what ideas I was trying to project. 1. Its not that my idea was to turn it into a sport or competition, thats suggesting we take the entire game and make new rules. no. The idea was to make a small optional side tab people could click and see a rank based on different types of caches logged, which wouldnt change much if anything. As for the second paragraph; Ive been geocaching since I was six when my grandmother introduced me to it, I loved it and it was never a speed or amount factor for me, I always enjoy the journey rather than the destination and appreciate the time and work people put into making them, thats the idea of geocaching isnt it? My previous account name was kid cacher, I grew out of that name and used one of my old usernames that i never even logged a cache on since 06, ive found 20 geocaches this weekend including many mystery and blah blah, your making me stray off topic, I would consider myself a veteran of this game though. I can see your points, Ive just had the topic be brought up by other geocachers and wanted to see what the general consensus was on this, its almost like the white elephant in the room.

Im just looking at how we can improve and appeal to audiences that are losing interest, and it seems you are completely missing the point here as everybody isnt the same as you, it wouldnt neccisarrily to be whos better, I mean it would mean something different to everyone. It would also be a way to meet local geocachers. Im just trying to be open minded, as I can see alot of people are afraid of change and are getting on the defensive, my idea would by some small optional tab on the website you wouldnt even have to bother with if you didnt want too, but some people may want it, I mean im just trying to get some constructive positives and negatives from people here. My opinion is that if you and similar minded people want to compete, go ahead and do so. IF you convince the Groundspeak people to support that fine and good. But please, make participation optional. There should be only an opt in option. Non participation would be the default setting. That avoids anyone who wouldn't want to play. The option should also be set up so that non player stats don't get mixed up in your game. That should not be a big problem for you since all the non players would not affect your results except maybe to increase your rating level, since we are not competing with you for a spot. Might also be the time to do the same for find count displays as well... leave the public display (or not) up to the public. After that point, the game can go on unnoticed by the ones who do not play, just like the FTF game. Have fun trying it though. I'd go through the stats programs rather than GC/GS as was suggested myself. If I was at all interested. Doug 7rxc Thank you, I see what you mean too. I made this post not because I support the idea, but rather because I wanted to see peoples opinions on the matter, when I threw the idea on here it was on the basis that it would definitely be optional and just a small side tab that people wouldnt even have to notice, because there are many types of people some might start to lost interest and see a different side of the game and enjoy it again.

Thank you for giving me a constructive reply, I can see what you mean, yet I think your highly over exaggerating, what im saying wouldnt be required for a geocache, and wouldnt change anything really, it would be a small optional addition. I love geocaching, and enjoy and appreciate every one that somebody makes, yet theres always room for improvement and change. Just trying to be open minded. I think that most that have responded negatively have seen lots of suggestions for "improvements" and have an open mind. I agree with others that, in many ways, geocaching has already become too competitive, and while that might generate interest for those that like to play competitive sports/games, the impact of such a suggestion should be weighed against the effect that more competition would have on those that appreciate the non-competitive aspect of the game. There are some that feel that the trend that geocaching has taken in the last few years as a numbers game had degraded the game and more competition would only make it worse. I can see what your saying, geocaching has a lot of variety of people and all arent similar minded, I wouldnt necisarrily call the previous posts open minded because they are only seeing one side of the fence,getting on the defensive and being closed, while im trying to see everybodys point of view. I agree with alot of your post, just as geocaching starting to become more mainstream has degraded it as well

So it's not just a case of "I'm not interested in this idea and won't pay attention to it if it were to be implemented". Agreeing with T.D.M., I'd say that a move in this direction would change the fundamental nature of the website. Maybe not for you and me, but anybody who starts AFTER that point would be presented from 'day one' with a "SEE YOUR RANKING" banner and there you go, GC's a competitive endeavor. Another problem is in figuring out what the ranking will be based on. Stricly 'FIND COUNT?' Percentage of 'FINDs' to 'DNFs'? 'FINDS' compared somehow to time caching? I could easily come up with a dozen more 'meaningful' stats on which to compare people, but unless YOUR meaningful stat is the same as MY meaningful stat, the ranking is, well, meaningless. Would you have GS rank us by ALL the stats and let you pick the one you want? That's a LOT of server cycles to spend every time someone displays a profile page for virtually no gain. How would you define your 'regions'? I live near the southern border of Ulster County, New York, US. My caching buddies are here in Ulster, down in Orange County and over in Dutchess County. The 'region' I would be interested in covers more than just the County, otherwise the ranking is meaningless to me. Someone I know lives 20 miles north, smack dab in the middle of Ulster. HE considers HIS region to be ONLY Ulster County because he doesn't know anybody and rarely caches in other areas. The point is that along with the definition of the specific ranking criteria, the definition of the ranked REGION would ALSO be different for each person. If GS were to come up with a generic way to do it, my guess is it wouldn't be meaningful to the vast majority of cachers. I'll bet, however, that you could do this for your own self-defined map region through GSAK or one of the other tools that can access GS' data. (I have no idea what I'm talking about here!) So, learn the tools, write the app, and share it with the rest of us. Good luck! I really appreciate the time you took to make that reply, it was really constructive compared to the ones which made them seem afraid of change. My idea was based on the criteria of point based geocaching I guess, either that or smiley based, point based would be through multi cache being larger amount while micro being smaller amount and etc, time and dnf wouldnt matter. While im not trying to throw geocaching into a 360 and make everyone riot, there are many varieties of people from young to old, if some people like a competeitive type of play, why not give it to them, it wouldnt have to make the other have to play like that, some people like the journey while others like the destination, and thats why some people lose interest. Im the same type of cacher you guys are, but im just trying to see from eveybody's perspective.

Thank you for giving me a constructive reply, I can see what you mean, yet I think your highly over exaggerating, what im saying wouldnt be required for a geocache, and wouldnt change anything really, it would be a small optional addition. I love geocaching, and enjoy and appreciate every one that somebody makes, yet theres always room for improvement and change. Just trying to be open minded.

Im just looking at how we can improve and appeal to audiences that are losing interest, and it seems you are completely missing the point here as everybody isnt the same as you, it wouldnt neccisarrily to be whos better, I mean it would mean something different to everyone. It would also be a way to meet local geocachers. Im just trying to be open minded, as I can see alot of people are afraid of change and are getting on the defensive, my idea would by some small optional tab on the website you wouldnt even have to bother with if you didnt want too, but some people may want it, I mean im just trying to get some constructive positives and negatives from people here.

if the point system were set up so that micros gave negative points, I might support this idea. I know what you mean, in the past few days ive spent a few hours underneath ivy plants and in parks scratching my head for hours while trying not to look like I should be in the police watch list, all while trying to find something smaller than my hand.

Regarding rankings, it sounds like you're perfectly describing this site. Click on "Location Index" to drill down to a specific region. I'm currently 158th in BC. As for the QR codes, there's another game based on this called Munzee that uses points in the way you've described. I won't discuss that game any further, because it's considered a competing website and I don't want to get your topic locked or myself banned. Thank you for the informative post, those sound kind of what im talking about, but more easier to access and made by Groundspeak or the makers of the website, im just asking what you guys would think of the idea of logging on to the site and seeing where you rank in your community, getting to know other local cachers, is it too much or something that you would look forward too?

As do I, im not saying to turn geocaching mainstream, just to let it appeal to others and not just yourself. I know many people who geocached for many years then lost interest, for me theres nothing better than relaxing and enjoying the scenery, im merely throwing ideas to appeal to all audiences and keep interest in all members

Id like to have a constructive discussion and hear what you guys think, as geocaching is always open to new ideas and adventure, I thought; whats a way to keep people geocaching and build some friendly competition between geocachers. So why not build regional rankings, an example would be per city or region it would show the geocacher with the most smileys on a top ten or something list, then on different scales, provincial and national and global (I live in canada) which would reward senior members who have been geocaching for a long time, they would see where they rank. Or as a second idea, to make everybody equal in this system and eliminate the smiley system, what if cache owners printed a code, or printed a special bar code or those smart phone squares you can take a picture of, and every time you do a geocache you can manually put this specific to that cache code on the website, or get your smartphone to instantly upload it. This way everybody starts from scratch and everybody has a chance to be high in their local rankings, also different caches give you more points, multi caches give higher points while micros give less, and travel bug pickups will give some points too, so you can never max out on points. I think incorporating a sense of competition between geocachers might engage people more and would provide a fun idea.