GEO CHIMP

BOY, I was beginning to get worried!! When I was reading all that stuff in the error message(s) about "Remote Server Access," etc., I envisioned some hacker attempting to turn the GC.com server against us all, trying to crack as many machines as possible by us turning on some obscure service on our machines to get inside. WHEW!! Luckily it seemed to be much more innocent. BTW, you guys have paid your ISP bill, right???

Naive? Unknown? You are being very fair here. Seems like ignorance to me...geocaching didn't start yesterday. Policy making didn't start yesterday either. Something else is at work here. Somebody (the missing name on the letter that started this topic) wants it the way they want it, for the reasons they want it, and don't feel compelled to explain their rationale nor actions.

BLATANTLY off-topic...how are those Ensure shakes? I've wanted to try them...did anyone ever notice in the movie Deep Impact, that the White House kitchen was PACKED w/ Ensure?? Present day compasses may be worth something on eBay then....I'm gonna make sure my daughter understands this, and takes good care of the ones I give her Snorth...HAHA!!! You guys are a riot!!! And the Mars stuff, way cool!!! Thanks guys for the answers, and the humor...I love this forum, and geocachers in general...Letterman/Leno, WATCH OUT!!!

Ya know, I also thought about that point too. The word nocturnal is what struck me, not so much the burrowing thing. If these owls are nocturnal, then the cache effecting it would have to be a night cache, and the percentage of night caches is very small anyway. They are more costly (bright eyes, fire tacks/tapes/clips/etc., UV/IR equipment required, etc.). I read some night caches in PA, NJ, OH, and VA, and NONE of them were in the areas we are talking about. Most people who place night caches make them relatively short, definately ON trails, or in urban environs. I just don't see how this can further endanger protected species..... Or maybe I'm just ignorant of some night caches in FWS areas...

OH, another aspect to this that wasn't clearly explained by the show. Tell me if my theory is on track... These areas in the southeastern Atlantic Ocean, that signify that a shift is coming...what is that all about?? They seem to have graphic representations of geothermal activity, but they didn't clearly explain. I'm guessing it might be a very thin area of the earths crust, at the southern end of the Atlantic Mid-Ocean Ridge (MOR...the thing that they say is responsible for plate tectonics)...but why is that significant? Or is it just another indicator, and THEY really don't know? Does a thin spot create some kind of turbulence in the core, and that starts the whole thing off?? Tell me whatcha think/know...

YEAH, YEAH, one of the rare occasions I watched PBS...I like NOVA. THANK YOU for reminding me what channel/show it was. You guys are SO funny, ROFLMAO!! George, is that amateur rocketry I see you're into...or downing commercial air/space craft?? I checked the link above to the show, and the video is available from WGBH website. Another video to get would be the Avoiding Armageddon series they did. I liked all of them, but didn't care much for the discussions after the shows. But then again, I was on a federal response task force for WMD/NBC incidents, so I had an interest. BACK on topic...yes, they showed a guy who had MANY samples of rock, and that was EXACTLY how he discovered that Pole flips. Another aspect of what they talked about, which would take BILLIONS (ala Carl Sagan) of years to happen, was cooling of the core, and eventual death of the planet. They attributed the death of Mars to this core cooling. As the core cools, the internal spinning dynamo action slows/stops, and ALL kinds of bad stuff happens then (cat/dog thing), the earth cools, Poles are lost, atmosphere goes away, etc. They never did say what EXACTLY caused the rapid cooling of Mars' core, but they said it happened very quickly, soon after the birth of the planet. Possible BIG meteor/comet strike, or something. BUT, they said, had this not occurred, Mars would've looked amazingly like Earth...oceans, continents, Poles, etc. Yes, I was amazed to find out that the location of the Poles wobble (variation). NEVER in any geology, or cartography class I took in college did they ever talk about this...musta been grad stuff. Thanks guys for coming up with answers...ya know, in this activity, there is always sombody(ies), that know something, about EVERYTHING!

Well, I thought some datum use some kind of north reference, and topos relate both true/magnetic north, and you have to account for declination. BOY, this puts declination in a completely new light! As/When this takes place, they say the Poles won't just invert, but spasm, with the North/South Poles appearing in several places on the planet, simultaneously. The graphic they used looked like big red zits appearing all over the planet, and then fading, and then appearing somewhere else. Fascinating, and for the first time, I got an excellent explanation/demo of what/how a dynamo works. This apparently is what the core is, a molten metal spinning mass of magna, in the process, molten metal generates a magnetic field...hence, the Poles. I can't remember, nor accurately relate how/why these spots in the SE Atlantic Ocean are signs that this is going to occur, but they are there. Timeline: they said it could occur within 10-15-20 years, possibly sooner/later. Sounds like junk science at times, but the history of this happening before is there. Yeah, geological time is way wack, almost like Quantum time...mind bending, and my mind just ain't flexible that way. OK, carbon dating tells us a lot, but, how can you date something you can't get at/to (core)? I'm definately gonna watch out for this show again, and tape it for sure. Maybe it was the History Channel, cuz I watch that the most. I encourage you to look out for it too, so we can have more discussion on it. Another question: Will this effect the Ozone layer(s) at the present Poles, and how? I think they talked about this in the show as well... They did mention that there would be risk that cancer rates might increase as the Ozone layer may/may not migrate. So maybe I answered my own question....

OUT dadgum spot... Shakespeare?

This is no joke, and not wack. Geologists have noted in the study of the planet, that the poles have flipped several times throughout history. I recently watched a show on the Discovery/Learning Channel (I can't remember which), where they are saying that signs exist in the southeast Atlantic Ocean, that the poles are about to undergo another shift/flip. They said that as/when this happens, North and South Poles will appear simultaneously, on SEVERAL places on the planet, before they actually invert. No real cataclysmic changes are expected, but navigation issues may occur for some. Apparently, Auroras will be visible for many people ALL over the planet, and this seems to be the only effect most people will be aware of. I have several questions: 1. How does this effect us? Why? 2. Will this effect the various/numerous datum that exist for mapping, navigation, etc.? Or accuracy? 3. Do we have any geologists out there that can offer their opinion/insight into this subject? I find this fascinating, and can only wonder what the implications can be for us in the 21st century.

You may consider CITO ancillary, but myself, TeacherMatt and MANY others, consider it integral, and a mandatory part of the game...for ourselves, anyway. I guess it's therapeutic for me, instead of getting P.O.'d by the piggery of people before us. This part of it, certainly, FWS should have NO qualms with, and wish more people would engage in. Playing hockey in a pay arena, well, that's form of being a consumer of a business or service. Playing the game/sport is just plain fun, same as geocaching. The decision to make geocaching restricted in these areas now, is arbitrary and unreasonable, and THAT is what/why we are talking, right? After all, when WE pay to enter/use areas/facilities (OR as taxpayers even) aren't we entitled to some say, if not just to enhance/improve the area/facility/service? A good customer service policy (which the gummint knows it should have...hence the heat the IRS has had to deal with in recent years), should be paramount to any healthy bidness. After all, they can make all the money they want for a time, but eventually, if you don't take care of folks, you will cease to survive and your income will fall to nil. Pro athletes donating their time/prestige/talent, that is Good Works, or PR, depending on how ya look at it. Do you think NHL, MLB, NFL, MLS would have them stop. No. Why do you think we see those logos on those commercials?? Who do you think pays for those ads? Before I went out my first time, I attached lanyards to every device I carry, with snap links on my jacket/vest. The areas we do our thing at, when you drop something, it is GONE! Whether it be leaves, a cliff, water/pond, darkness. Not to mention, we spend a good amount of money to have leatherman's, swiss army knives, flashlights, etc., and I'm not enabling the forest/pond to have my kind of fun at my expense Nor do I wanna give any goodies away, except in an ammo cans/tupperware. Life is *sometimes* unfair. Sometimes? If it is this way in your life, lets trade places!! Advantage: God. Nobody EVER said it was fair...the point I was making is, folks did have a shot at these places, and now, for whatever ridiculous reason(s), they do not. Again, this has nothing to do with life, but an unreasonable, arbitrary decision a PERSON made. When God makes decisions, you deal, or not. When people make bad decisions, they should be confronted, enlightened, or whatever, so that a better decision can be (re)enacted. Hence, democracy/progress. Now, if this has to do with geography, people can change wherever they live, if they choose to, to move closer to their hobby/lifestyle, whatever. Owls (or any other endagered game/fowl/fish) will be disturbed by any other roaming game anyway, trails or not. If they have a lot of time on the planet, they would be. If you can keep the game/predators from roaming, whenever, wherever, more power to ya. Yes, it is OUR responsibility to convince the ignorant, that geocaching can benefit everyone: win-win. THAT is the purpose of our discussion, and we stand together here. I never said going to the media should be first/only step. Read the *IF* in my post. I was just editorializing on the state of our society, and offering a choice that hadn't been previously discussed. Democracy needs a free press, to be sure, but it has gotten out of control in the US, and some say, the UK too. Privacy issues are steamrolled, and you know how big privacy is these days. How right you are, about taking the chance of laying your life on the (by)line, when going to the press. EVERYTHING about you will undoubtedly be revealed. If someone chooses this method, caveat emptor. I prefer anonymous tips...especially to those who've written well of us, should it come to that Yes, we should all live our lives by the Golden Rule. Even when others do not play nice. However, when playing nice doesn't work, escalation is in order (kinda like hockey, huh?). Those of us engaged in this activity are not stupid people. It takes a somewhat higher order of intelligence to succeed in finding caches, whether it be using GPS, solving puzzles or using reason to get to the goal. We are a persistent lot too. This, methinks, will be ANY beauracrats undoing. I would like to see us connect with some other outdoors group (whether it be hunting, REI, ATC, Sierra club, Ducks Unltd), that has a powerful lobby, and maybe we would be talked to/with first, and not just slammed. We do have an intelligent point of view to provide, no? I don't believe any of us likes being treated like children/miscreants. Thanks to you for expressing your view on my points, I appreciate it, and I'm sure others do as well. The more we talk about this, the better for everyone, and the activity. Your response/expansion on my points, provides other readers with the opportunity to see another point of view, and/or, see something that I felt was self-evident I wrote, but now realize was not. Thank goodness I figgered out how to work the QUOTE thingy. C'mon folks, whattayathink????

A good example of a state that has a LOT of FWS Refuges is Montana, or WA. Check your state at: http://refuges.fws.gov/refugeLocatorMaps/index.html I didn't check all states, there may be another that is packed with them...

AND, I don't advocate converting, or switching taditional caches to Virtual...just ain't the same, sorry

OK folks, I took my time reading ALL the intelligents points of discussion placed here, and I appreciate everyones opinion. I did this BEFORE I posted, and this is nothing more than my reflection on ALL of them. I don't mean to pick on anyone, nor do I consider flaming good form. This is a discussion, that does afford various arguments, for the sake to inform, discuss, etc. 1. "It's just a game" It ceases to be a *game* when CITO takes place, or we pay fees for entrance to these areas. 2. I wonder how many different ways we could define *otherwise leaving*, which is the language in the regs? Many times I have come across expended brass/shotgun cartridges from areas where hunting is allowed, but geocaching seems to be in violation. How about that? Would they fine/imprison someone for dropped/lost keys, pins, change/money, etc.? If not, why not? It would seem to be left... 3. To the folks who seem unconcerned with the *small* amount of area(s) involved in this imminent restriction: what about folks who are surrounded by the 4% of total FWS land, and LITTLE else, and have to travel VERY far to do any other caching? This would be discrimitive in my eyes. Other posts relate that the areas seem to be ever-expanding, or not easily defined, resulting in widely varying amounts of acreage. Some amounts are very significant. "Then I did some searching...The Refuge System currently controls more than 95 million acres of land (and they want more). There are more Refuge lands than there are National Parks." Heck, if I was surrounded by FWS lands, and had to travel more than 50 miles to pursue my hobby, this would BUG me. 4. Shamelessly off-topic: MANY homeless people CHOOSE to be homeless, this IS a right. 5. IMO: Woods walking (what some call bushwhacking) by 1-2 cachers/week, 5 at most from what I've observed from cache logs, does not equal the amount of movement that game conduct on any given day/night/week/month/year. How can this be damaging? Yes, I know some folks are steamrollers in EVERYTHING they do in life, and we ALL pay a price for the wake leave, but a process does exist for reporting this, so... 6. Section 26.32 says: "Recreational uses such as, but not limited to, sightseeing, nature observation and photography, interpretive centers and exhibits, hunting and fishing, bathing, boating, camping, ice skating, picnicking, swimming, water skiing, and other similar activities may be permitted on national wildlife refuges. When such uses are permitted the public will be notified under the provisions of this subchapter C." Since when is geocaching NOT an *other similar activity.*? 7. It would seem that the Refuge Managers have the authority to determine if/that casual hiking, jogging, OR geocaching is appropriate or not, as it is clearly stated in the regs. I say approach them, directly, and find out what their read on this is. 8. It seems to me that some enviro-friendly lobbying group felt they got their toes stepped on, and hence, pushed the right buttons, and now we have this situation. To me, this kind of attitude/response is no different than eco-terrorism, as it has the effect of deterring folks from living their lives, and doing what they would ordinarily and HARMLESSLY, do in NWS areas. 9. Also slightly off-topic, but, should you get confronted by someone enforcing a reg: Someone posted they got a response from somebody in FWS, who was open-minded to geocaching, and this individual stated: "They're cops, and you know how cops can be". I don't know if he was referring to Rangers, or Police, but the VAST majority of Police officers have only ONE thing in mind when they go to work: To go home again. They are just as human as everyone else, and just as entropic (trying to find their lowest energy state). Jerks have short life-spans in Law Enforcement, or they get promoted OUT of direct public contact (Peter Principle). Cops know the law, and their jobs, and they realize that doing their job involves using a LOT of judgement. None of them look forward to ANOTHER thing they have to watch out for, especially obtuse, arcane violations of ridiculous statues. Please don't take anything out on those that are looking out for us, just give them a smile, and say thanks for being there. They rarely get that. 10. Things in the US of A work very differently these days; WAY outside what the Constitution EVER could've accounted for, and so do the laws, rules and regs of nearly anyplace. For example: how many times do we see court cases being tried/convicted/acquitted in the media these days? Yes, 12 folks sit in a box and hear the lurid details of a case, but sometimes we hear more details than they do. i.e. Muhammad vs. Malvo case, Malvo jurors were NOT allowed to hear the 911 tapes, and HE was the shooter, yet Muhammad jurors DID hear them. My point: forget writing letters/emails; the press has given us TONS of publicity, all positive. Why not drop the quarters to them about this predicament, IF it becomes effective? If I get nailed for geocaching, I know my first response will be Dewey, Cheetum, and Howe, and THEIR first response will be to IGNITE the media fuse. THAT is how things happen these days, whether we like it or not. It's called legal hell-raising, and NOBODY more than the media loves to do this. Just my observations, and discussion points to further the thread... I say, CACHE ONE....

GC.com member BeachBuddies placed a night cache recently at Vint Hill Farms, VA. It is called Leprechauns Ritual, and there are NO nighttime restrictions for this park. He used FireTacks, which worked VERY well, and were nearly invisible in daylight (meaning, if you used a very powerful light in the daytime, you could pick them up, BUT a casual daytime hiker could not see them unless he scrutinized the trees VERY closely). BeachBuddies told me that he bought the factory-second FireTacks, and saved some money on them, but they seem perfect for our use. Here is the cache listing: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...65-88f884732d10 Another recent Night Cache (Urban downtown) in Fredericksburg, VA, that used reflective tacks and circles: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...db-7c6533ef448c These were both excellent caches, and really, you only need GPS to find the strating points, flashlights do the rest. I also am in the process of putting together a night cache, THANKS for the info on the WalMart sources!! Cache on...

Not since the beginning of this post did I see anyone mention anything about this thing looking like a Rino. The antenna is right from the Rino, and the black grip areas too. The Rino's use 3 AA batts (but they have FRS/GMRS radios built-in), and maybe this will usse 3 too...resulting in 30 hrs life. That would be the only way they could achieve such long batt life. The button on top is multi-function: On/Off(push and hold), and backlight (push=on/off, time limited by settings). No other functions for this button, so it would be used very little. The screen is larger than the Rino, but not by much. Remember: granted, the FCC was more heavily involved w/ the Rino's final approval, but Garmin dropped the hints on the Rino almost 2 YEARS ahead of when we saw it on the shelf...if you could get one. The Quadrafilar antenna seems to have an edge over "the patch," and some of the newer units I've seen (Mag. SportTraks, etc.) seem to be switching to this type. I love my Rino 120's, the GPS60 interests me, but I've no clue what diff. a color screen would make??? Whether nav. in the car (windshield mount), or caching in hand, a color screen seems like another way to kill batts. Unless it is transflective ($$$$), it would have to be backlit constantly. This being said from when I first wanted a PDA, it HAD to be color (Palm IIIC), and then upgrading to Handspring Visor blue color model (can't remember the name). But PDA's vs. GPSr's....color doesn't make much sense for handheld models. Nevertheless, waiting w/ baited breath.... RUN with those Scissors, run, run, RUN LIKE HELL!!!

"He doth bestride the narrow world, like a Colussus...such men are dangerous." -Shakespeare RUN with scissors, run, run, RUN LIKE HELL!!!

RUN with scissors, run, run, RUN LIKE HELL!!!

Some I try to live by: Every Obstacle is an Opportunity. Unk. Adapt, Improvise, Overcome. USMC The only easy day was yesterday. Navy Seals A response I once got after explaining GeoCaching: :Ya mean ya don't win no money fer doin' this?" "There can be only One, Highlander! Don't lose your head!" Highlander

ARR, MAY-TAYS, play me a DIRGE!!! This coming from someone mostly known as NinjaMedic

OK, right coast cacher here...I was thoroughly way off course on a virtual in Manassas Battlefield, and ended up on the grounds of NoVA Comm. College nearby. (Note, dead reckoning is great for Orienteering, but a BIG waste of time in Geocaching...chant the manta: READ the MAPS, FOLLOW the trails...) A maintenance guy was just pulling into work there, and I asked him if he knew the trails nearby, and if he knew the quickest way back to the Battlefield. Heck, he offered (and I took) a ride back to my car. Nice guy, but a little paranoid. As I was explaining Geocaching, he wanted to know if this whole thing was set up by the manufacturers of GPS's. He said that that would be another ploy by them to sell more of them. I said no, but since have seen Magellan doing this. OR, once I greet other folks on trails, ask 'em if they're Geocaching, and start explaining what it is if they're ignorant, some have thought I've been trying to sell them something. What a culture we live in, w/ SPAM, Telemarketers, etc. All I do is tell/show 'em how much fun and good exercise (brain and body) this activity can provide. I can't blame them for being paranoid, in today's society: crime, miscreants, etc. I try to keep a TB on me too, to show them how fascinating it can be too. Wearing Geocaching hats/pins/patches doesn't hurt too, as they are recognizable to other cachers, and official-looking to uninitiated. Cache on my Brothers and Sisters....