shadango

Actually there is a difference. RR tracks are private property. Many reservoirs are private property as well, owned by the city/borough etc it is in...at least here in Western PA. .....many of them are posted no trespassing.....some you can fish in, but not swim...some you can hike near but not fish, etc.... Gotta be stealthy when you access them.

I doubt he would have given it anyways.... What torques me off is that someone who professed to be "an avid geocacher" (the bidder) would have tried to buy the TB.....not to start that whole discussion again though. Glad that it was pulled...it's likely that another will pop up though. heck, the seller may have even decidedto sell it privately......to avoid the possible flack.

Just wanted to comment on this aspect, as a newbie myself, with only 31 finds..... I did a cache over the weekend that fit description #1....in the middle of brush with no apprant entry point....But ya know what?? I enjoyed the bejeezuz out of that one! It made me think harder.... True, it is cool when there is a path leading right to a cache location, but isnt that almost like a big sign saying "HEY! I'M IN HERE!!" I know to look for signs of people having been in a spot, and that is how I have found many of my finds...the traffic pattern gives you the clue....But there have been a couple where I guess thebrush gre in or it hadnt been visited for awhile etc, and THOSE were the memorable cache finds, to me.... I also did a couple of the "two feet from the trail" deals...not al ot of challenge there, but still enjoyable, as I take my 5 yearo ld with me...the easy ones balance out the tougher ones..... THEN, there was another from the weekend.....It was a few feet off teh trail and there were paths leading around it but it was in an area where you woudl think "No way it could be there!" Guess what...it was! I get your point though, make it a good hide.....I agree....but while I might consider a hide pretty good (being a newbie) you might think it was lame.....I guess there are levels within this game... I just placed my first hide sulfer spring cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...94-62c4e81cc761 and the FTF told me it was a good hide.....so hopefully I dont disappoint too many folks.... Once I get some feedback on this one I plan on placing another.....its a rush to see someone finding your cache and logging a good find! shadango

For whatever it is worth -- I had posted earlier that I emailed the seller, the one bidder (86_vette) and ebay on this. (email addresses have been removed) Here are the replies I recieved (his reply is below my second response to him): From the bidder: ********************* shadango replies: The YJTBs are meant to be released into the cahces and then distributed via cachers moving them. They were never intended to be sold by anyone....doing so most likely violates several copyright laws. By selling them on ebay this seller has violated the whole concept behind travel bugs, let alone the YJTB......by purchasing them from someone, a person is takiung the sport out of it. If you log a "find" for a YJTB that you purchase, how is it truly a find at all? And I have just learned that the number of YJTBs you find doesnt affect or increase your chances of winning anything in the contest at all.....One YJTB is the same as finding 100. You can only enter once per period, and you can use the same YJTB number over and over. By stealing and selling these on ebay, the sleer only serves to ruin the game for other cachers. Please reference www.geocaching.com's website for much more information on travel bugs...there is a forum where this seller is being discussed now......look under a topic named "pathetic"......You will get a much better idea of why this is so objectionable.... Thanks for your cooperation..... -----Original Message----- From: 86_vette Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:43 PM To: zavetsky@comcast.net Subject: Re: Question from eBay Member i am an avid geocher myself.. are you sure it is stolen? how could you know with out the tracking number? *********************************** From ebay: Hello, Thank you for contacting eBay Community Watch with your report. I'll be pleased to render assistance. If you see an item on eBay that you believe is stolen, your best course is to contact law enforcement immediately. Under eBay's privacy rules, our attorneys will provide important records about pending and past listings with an official request from law enforcement officials. Please inform the police officer handling the case that eBay will be pleased to cooperate in the investigation, and ask the officer to contact eBay using our law enforcement-specific webform. The officer should include all relevant information, including the case number and any item numbers or User IDs. Regards, Community Watch *********************************** No reply by the seller yet. So, as usual, Ebay was no help. I would be courious to know if "86_vette" is on this forum, maybe even replying to this topic....

Cool! Using that theory, tell me where you park your car so I can swipe it and become the next "true owner"! You may think "apples to oranges", but is it really?? A possession is a possession is a possession, right? Just food for thought. Too many people these days think "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too"....whether the value of the possession is $1,000,000 or $.01, if it isn't yours to sell or use, it is wrong to do so without permission by the true owner....it has nothing to do with trying to be "Eaby police" or anything. If more people stood up and sounded off about crap like this I think the world would be much better off......Problem is, no one wants to say anything. shadango

I can't address the whole "purity" and "non commercial" issue, since I am a newbie....although clearly GC.com is a commercial endevour...nothing wrong with that......the folks that run GC.com need to cover costs and make a profit if they are to continue supporting this cool sport. But thats just my opinion. If you wear Nike shoes or drive a car, you advertise for that company everytime you wear the shoes or drive the car.....the whole commercialism thing is too big a topic..... The issue here isnt the commercialization of GC.com....it is about players respecting the idea that there are others playing by the rules and who ARE "into" the YJTB thing (like me)...... There are those who despise micros...so is it OK to go search for them and destroy them? Of course not....Different strokes, folks. In a nutshell: If you dont want to do the YJTB thing, or ANY TB thing for that matter, dont do them...just leave the YJTB lie there and dont contribue to the "commercialism"......but to interfere with those who DO, is just mean spirited and ethically questionable.

Again, I think it boils down to "what is the intention of the TB", not the color of it or anything else.... Regardless of what the purist might think, the YJTBs have been blessed by GC.com, the mother of the caches we all hunt here.....they are legit TBs that have a goal and a purpose. Is it OK to steal a regualr TB?? I think most people here would say "NO!" Just becuase the owner of these TBs is a big company, does that make it ok? To blatantly steal, deface, mutilate, throw away, pilfer, molest, crush, incinerate, break, brusie, squish, squash, break or sell on ebay ANYTHING that isn't yours just because "you can", is to slap the folks who play this game honestly in their face and brings into question the morals of the perpetraitor......"because I could get away with it" might be a good excuse used by presidnets and the like, but it don;t make it right..... Some folks might think thats not a big deal.....and I would agreee...but some folks want to be weinies and rain on the parades of others. I hope that folks will just play the game as intended and follow the loose rules in place and just let people have fun. (Dangit, I thought I trashed my soapbox!!) Shadango

These are great points.....although I still submit that this is not clear to everyone, at least not at first, tehrefore making tehset hings have a percieved value, contest wise.... Or maybe I am the only dumb schmuck who thought that finding MORE of these gave me a better chance at getting a Jeep.....

People who play a game that they enjoy get seriously wadded up when they think someone is abusing the rules of that game. These are really, really old braincells we've all been busily developing since nursery school, when it was 'our turn' to play with the squeaky thing. OMG! ROTFLMAO!!!!!! That was a great summation...I have a 2 year old and 5 year old in preschool/daycare so I can relate! "The squeaky thing"...FUNNY!

Yes. Yes, you can. Provided that you trade fairly, taking an item from a cache isn't stealing. It's part of the game. It becomes yours and you're free to do anything you want with it... Right, but if I go to your cache, take something and leave....I dont log my visit or any record of my taking it and leave nothing. My guess is that if this guy got this from a cache, this was the scenario otherwise it would be tracked to him. true, though...it could be one that was emailed to someone for placement in a cache...but then , if it is that easy, why would someone pay $75 on ebay for one??

There really is no purpose, you find one, submit a picture or essay, and after that, it's just sort of like finding a cache, or a normal travel bug, there is no purpose to finding more unless you're a number hungry person. I'm not the kind of guy who goes after a cache specifically because it has a YJTB or even a normal TB, but if there's one in there, I take it... Ok....gotcha..... I have to admit I was pretty psyched about getting my first YJTB and even my second and third...but had I known that I would have no benefit of multiple YJTBs I would have left them in the caches for someone who hasnt had a chance yet..... I guess I'll pass on grabbing them in the future.... They really should spell that out a little for idjuts like me.... ---edit ---- After thinking on this a bit I guess the point would be to find a different YJTB, one each epriod and submit a different picture for it.....Or, take 6 different pictures when you find ONE YJTB and submit THOSE, one each period.... shadango

Ok...I was just reading the rules for the TB contest again......It says one entry per name/email address per period. So, if I find 1 YJTB or 30, I really dont get any more or less entries? I can enter ONCE per period regardless of the number of YJTBs I find, and I can use the same YJTB each period...right??? I have found 3 and thought I had a better chance of winning than I did when I had only found one.... And the sweepstakes for the Jeep is actually a mail-in/online registration only....correct? Do I have it right?? if so, I hafta say I am a *little* disappointed....very cool concept, but if the way I have stated it is true, what is the point of looking for as many YJTBs as you can find?? Or am I missing something ?? I like to think I generally am not an idiot but I feel like when when trying to figure out if the search for YJTbs is worth it or not....

Actually, add me to the "confused" column.... When I first heard about YJTBs I though that finding one and logging it automatically entered me thru the site.......I now know this is not true..... To be honest, I cant understand what the idea of the YJTB really is, other than to promote the two contests...one where you submit an essay pr picture, and one where you eneter your name for a Jeep (no TB needed).... Or am I still confused?

True....this is certainly not an earth shattering issue. I think what is disturbing here is NOT that a TB is for sale.....in today's world where EVERYTHING is for sale, it comes as no shock....and it IS just a toy car..... No, it is more the issue of someone who is involved in Geocaching enough to be able to go and find one abusing the game for profit. THAT , I think, is what makes this guy human scum. I am a newbie and have a lot to learn, but it would seem that this game is based on trust...and this guy violates that.....again, not surprised that this happens, just commenting.

Well, then, the guy is STILL a crook.... Either way he is ripping someone off...either the person looking to buy a genuine TB (who, in my opinion is a crook too...go out and find one like anyone else) or the overall population within the geocaching world.... Just my $.02

I agree that America is all aboit making money, it seems...but that doesnt make stealing money ok.... And by stealing the TB from the cache and selling it for profit, the guy is wrong. Can I go to your cache and take something I like to turn around and sell it?? Maybe some would liken that to a distribution network like Walmart but keep in mind that all the parties involved there WANT to buy and sell the item.... In this case, the item is intended to simply pass between people whilst geocaching.....stealing and selling the TB violates the concept of the contest.... Its not an earth-shattering issue, I agree..but this guy is a crook and would probably steal from his grandma to make a buck.

(Shadango walks into view.....places a worn yet sturdy soapbox on the ground, steps up onto it and clears his throat....) Ahem....snort....ahem.... (Shandango places his flattened right hand partially into the breast of his button-down shirt, stands up ramrod straight and prepares to speak in his best faux-British accent.....) After reading (yawn) the whole thread, the one question that hasn't been asked or answered in full is "Who complained". We know that the cache was approved and posted. We know that one person went a-lookin' for it and didn;t find it. We know that the cache was subsequently un-approved. Now, do we assume that the would-be-finder complained becuase he couldn't find it? Or did someone in the area see the 1st guy and then start snooping around themselves and then find the cache by accident (If it is just sitting on a ledge it might be easy) and contact GC.com? (Remember, at one time or another, we ALL were newbies to this sport and would have questioned seeing someone poking around in the bushes...nowadays, I assume they are Geocaching... ) Was it a concerned resident or one of the folks the writer notes as "having problems" with him? Seems like the approver AND the cacher both miscommunicated.....easy enough to do....happens everyday. But they both need to come to an understanding...as I understand it, a given area has only one approver (??) so like it or not, you two have to work together if you want to put more caches out there.... Both sides need to communicate 100%.....the approver isn't God and neither is the person hiding the cache....they are equals.....just happens that one has been delegated to approve caches.... And, more importantly, the WHOLE issue and who complained needs to be discussed. If your neighbors dont want strangers around then that is their right to complain, to a point. When I saw "gated community" I said "Duh.....its gated for a reason....keep control of strangers".....regardless of what the policy-in-practice of that gate is, some folks may derive a sense of security by having it there, and feel that inviting the general public within its confines jeopardizes THEIR safety....they may very well be the same ones that disagree with the "public pool parties" as well.....A gate may mean one thing to a 20 year old guy while it might mean something totally different to a 65 year old widower living by herself. ....or maybe it was the person who couldnt find it and they complained because they felt uncomfortable with that hide....or maybe that person was ticked off after having spent an hour driving somewhere to find a cache that wasn't what they expected. Anyways, the long and short of it is -- this is between the poster, the approver and GC.com.....we can all interject and such, but only 3 parties know what actually transpired......the poster, the approval and God almighty. (Shadango steps off of the soapbox...grabs an axe and bludgeons the beejeezuz out of it, splintering it into toothpicks, and walks away, dragging the carcass of the dead equine that has been beaten beyind recognition.....) It's all good folks...it's just a game! shadango

What a jerk.....Guys like this really p@ss me off..... I am a member of ebay and emailed him the following email: "I am writing in reference to the Yellow jeep Travel Bug you are offering on ebay. As a new Geocacher myself, I have found 3 of these in the last month or so, and moved them on as intended....they are not all that hard to come by in my neck of the woods. But please keep in mind that your stealing these from a cache and selling them (and yes, it is stealing) is illegal and therefore will be reported to ebay. For you to take advantage of folks' honesty (the people who set up and play this game) really sucks...excuse the language, but it sums up my feelings about your actions. It makes me laugh to see that you say that you cannot giveout the tracking number because "in the long run the authenticity of the actual cache page for the bug would be tarnished.". You are in fact ruining the game for everyone. Be assured that ebay will be asked to investigate this sale and your account. Sincerely, " I also filed a report with ebay via their strolen property reporting form..... "The seller is selling an item that has been stolen from an official Geocaching.com game location.....the item being sold is intended to be passed from location to location and never be resold. The seller has stolen the item and is attempting to resell it for profit. The item is copyrighted by Daimler Chrysler as part of a promotional campaign." And finally, I sent an email to the current high bidder, 86 vette.....asking him to reconsider his bid. I know its not a huge deal...but people like this really chap my hide. And it IS stealing, what this guy is doing. He is ruining the hunt for those in the game to have fun.... Scumbags. No conscience at all. shadango

I flew USAir back in May.....wanetd to use my GPS and the stewardess said I could not.....even though the website says you can... The flight was a smaller jet, operated by a different airline company but under the USAir name.....maybe that is why...I was bummed out. I was able to use my laptop though, which has the potential for more interference than my GPs... Go figure.

One thing I am not clear on is, do you actually have to submit an essay or picture to win a Jeep?? Is catching and logging a YJTB enough?? It is just my 5 year old and I going caching, so pictures are tough to get composed.....and I dont know if our walks in the woods are enough to win a smile, elt alone a Jeep... shadango

As a newbie, I have a unique perspective in that I am not (yet) caught up in the drama and politcis that ANY social venture like this entails.... So..... 1) The YJTB is a hit because it is a contest, and you can win something, theoretically....people love free stuff. That being said, I think its pretty remote that a given person will win a Jeep, though 3 or 4 people will. Contests get all sorts of people involved in them...some honest, some not. SOme folks will quit geocaching after the contest is over, some will continue. 2) The YJTB is a "collectors item" BECAUSE it is a "limited" promotion....only 4,000 or so have been released...no intrinsic value by itelf, but like anything else, it can become valuable....just like McD toys and beanie babies....hence the thefts....a "PERCEIVED" future value, if you will. 3) I picked up a YJTB last Sunday and will be placing it somewhere this coming weekend....Keep in mind that some folks dont cache everyday (though I would love to).....and some cant do it every weekend.....some do fullsize caches on the weekend and micors during the week since they are more convenient due to woirk school, etc. (cant put a YJTB into a film container)......some will forget about it and some will lose the TB.....some will have their kids steal and/or lose them.....so a lot of reasons for them disappearing, and I would guess that the bulk of them are disappearing more for the "thats cool" factor than some horrible plot. 4) I want to thank Jeremy for his taking the time to cultivate his own hobby/interest into a sport that folks like me can participate in and have something that the family can enjoy....These days, its tough to find ANY family activity that is cheap......Geocaching is cheap, and thats a God send. To those others who were involved in geocaching in the very beginning but didnt take it any further, well, thanks too.... I have no problem with the idea that GC.com and Jeremey and whomever might be making a little cash or a lot of cash on this.....Setting up and maintaining a website and servers doesnt come cheap, folks. And if someone can make some money, so what?? If someone cultivates an idea and takes some risk they deserve to reap whatever reqrds may come...No risk, no gain...No one is making anyone buy the premium membership...I didint even know about them until after I had gotten my first fiew finds....I plan on signing up just to support this neat website and service...and yes, I do view it as a service. If the site were not here to tell me where the caches were and keep track of my "score" I wouldnt have found this neat new hobby! Daimler Chrysler is most likely paying GC.com money for the advertising...but so what?? Like others have said, NO POPUPS, FREE MEMBERSHIP and a LOT of fun.....! WHat *I* worry about is that the GC.com website is popping up everywhere in the news lately.....this, plus the Jeep thing means that MANY more people are being made aware that there is "treaure in them thar hills"....that will draw all sorts of weirdos out of the woodwork.....anyone with $100 and an internet connection can get involved and that is good and bad. Again, just a newbie's perspective....sorry to beat a dead horse...

I, too, am getting stuff together to do my firstcache.....I have some location ideas but again, the permission thing is tough.....finding time to track down the right folks is tough.

I would love to get this book.....maybe it would help me figure out why I stink at finding micros!!! Thanks for the chance! shadango

See, this is what I have a problem with. This is pretty much the same as "it's not my problem is was raining and water got in the cache" or "it's not my problem that a bunch of 14 year old male muggles were watching me retrieve and return the cache." I think it rude to not return the cache. It's like drinking milk straight from the container or not flushing the toilet. ~sheesh~ Leave it so others can find like it was supposed to be found. Well I think it is Rude to hide a cache 7 feet in the air and not mention that short cachers may have trouble with it, I have plenty of caches of my own hidden and none of them require a ladder to retrieve them. Any one who places a cache out of reach for shorter cachers without "Mentioning it" don't go crying about your cache not being put back as you found it. Like I said it's not my problem, it just using ones brain when placing a cache. I am going to drive two hours and not be able to log a cache because the owner of thecache did not think about the placement of the cache. Hi all.... Pardon my interjecting here, as a noobie and all.... but while I can see the concern of making a chache "accesible" for folks, where do you draw the line? Just for shorter folks? Or do we have to consider putting caches in places that are all wheelchair accesible? Or how about not putting caches in dark holes (for those who have the phobia of sticking their philanges into dark holes)? We did a chache yesterday that I almost didn;t do because it was WAAAAAAY down inside a dead tree....had to go in up to my armpit......spiderwebs galore in there....YUCK! Or how about putting chaces in places where spiders can't build their webs nearby??? Or how about placing caches in easy to find locations so that those who dont like searching very long can find it easily?? How about caches that are in muddy areas.....there are folks who woul like to cache but dont like walking in mud.....shoudl we make it so that no cache is in a muddy area?? I know, absurd....but where is the line? Yesterday my 5 year old (certainly, a height impaired person) and I did a cache that was placed in a spot where it was very slippery and on the edge of a small ledge.....He slipped off and fell, taking quite a tumble (He's ok, thank God).....Well, I guess I could say "That cache owner needs to make his cache more accesible for 5 year olds...." ...after all, this IS a game, and who likes games more than 5 year olds, right?? But in the end, it was my responsibility for him being there, and for him getting the cache and for getting it back into the spot, which was dangerous even for me...but we chose to do it....we knew the risk. We decided not to abandon this cache and risked our keisters to get it. In my opinion, where the cache is is where the cache is....if you take it out of that spot it is your responsibility to put it back exactly like you found it or even better...don't take it out of that spot if you don't think you can put it back.....and if you can get it, you can, with some ingenuity, put it back....It's not fair for short folks to complain about "high" caches, in-as-much as it is unfair for me, at 6'4", to complain about caches hidden in areas where you have to walk a half-mile stooped over due to overgrowth (we did one of those yesterday too....back still hurts...Tyler was at a distinct advantage... ) From what I can tell, as a noobie, part of the game is rehiding the cache where it was so that the next person can enjoy getting it...IMHO, I am learning that I have to be prepared for different situations that a given cache can be in, or simply not retrieve it. But I will certainly agree that the cache description shoudl have an area that describes the potential issues...but maybe encrypted so as not to spoil it for all.....afterall, if it says "cache is 15 feet up a lampost", it kind of gives it away , doesnt it? It turns out that the hint for yesterdays cache even mentioned the precariousness of the hide....and Tyler STILL took a tumble..... Some of us never learn.... Just my two cents.....like I said, I am a noobie with only 20 finds to my name, so I dont have a lot of experience....but as a noobie, I think my perspective is fresh enough to see the honest situation..... shadango

Ya know, you have a point, and that is a sad commentary on today's society. I got a major injury about 10 years ago while riding my ATV (not geocaching)......9 breaks in my ankle, and broke my lower leg bone..also dislocated the same ankle. Ouch. Had to have surgery to have a plate and screws added. Over $15k out of pocket, still paying off. (No insurance at the time). The first thing one lady at work said to me when I got back was "So, are you going to sue?" SUE WHO!?!? I said.....She said "The land owner." Unbelieveable. When will folks udnerstand that we have a certain amount of liability for ourselves?? If we choose to engage in like ATVing or yes, even Geocaching, that have some danger involved, we are responsible for putting ourselves into that danger. Sheesh. I hope that no one would ever do that here (sue, I mean). So far, I have suffered minor scrapes, scratches and bug bites, even while using the OFF with DEET. I *did* do a face first gainer a couple weekends back while on the "grand theft auto" cache....I was with my 5 year old....I started thinking about what I would do if I got really hurt while out there with him......not a good scenario. Shadango