Star*Hopper

The number of finds that occur right before they're archived indicates to me he's likely seeking out DNF's due to missing caches to log in hopes his claim will stand because the owner won't be able to check the log (if it is indeed missing). But the evidence that shows logs too far apart that he couldn't possibly have visited (in the REAL) world is, to my satisfaction, the clincher. He's a phony, an 'armchair cacher' as said. If you wanta play the game according to HIS rules....then accommodate him. Go thru and delete every freakin' log he's claimed, just as he says it's OK to do. THEN we'll see just how much he "doesn't mind". Many scams (of all types) are run where the perp knows there'll be a vast majority of rejections....but they're satisfied with (& too often make a good living off) the relatively few that do skate by. They are/he is relying on your inattentiveness & laziness! His tactics are a scam, of another form, but a scam nonetheless. And what's the harm? The harm is to the very "game" or sport or hobby or pastime, whatever each of us considers it....as well as an insult to those who try to play the game as it was intended. And even moreso to those who take the time, expend the effort, and yes, bear the expense of providing the gamepieces that sustain each and every one of you who participate. If enough of them stop doing it, THEN where's your game? I have one find....from a park about a block from my house. That makes me a geocacher "just like you." As soon as I'm done here, I'm gonna whip up a java applet that will parse the cache database for the entire world, and record each & every one as a find online. I'm sure many of them will be discovered & deleted. Maybe I'll even set it up to re-parse the deletions & log another find on them, about every other week. Yeah - that's da ticket! Whatever.....I should still have enough finds recorded to say "I won". And it's good to know so many of you are good with that. I'll count you among my blessings. Then what? My work here is done......time to move along & conquer something new. And gosh - lookit all the time & gasoline I saved! He doesn't belong. Push 'is button. The 'D' one. ~*

"This makes sense because we all know that there could NEVER be a Premium or Charter member that would be so careless." I do so love a dreamer! *LOL* I constantly have the same problem with mine....and every cacher in this area IS a Premie! But good luck with that....who knows?!? One responder made a good point. I have thought of that and this wording is now in the description of a cache I'm in process of developing: "If found by a caching party, PLEASE allow the original finder to return it to ensure it's replaced exactly as found" I'm considering making that a standard phrase on all my caches, both future AND via editing into my existing hides' descriptions. I'v also considered stating in all my caches: "On any cache found not replaced properly, the last log WILL be deleted - no question, no appeal!" While I know I can't check after every logging, and can't ascertain the last logger didn't actually repeat the MIS-placement of the previous finder, I'd hope any & all cachers would take the extra precautions, fearing THEIRS might be the one deleted....since they never know when I'll come to check on it. My thinking is if I can inspire EaCH one to replace it correctly, there'll be fewer problems. Worth a shot? Did I mention I do luv a dreamer? ~*

"If most or all the caches are micros it tends to show a lack of creativity..." What? People who aren't creative (and whom may I ask, holds the Go-NoGo gage on that?) shouldn't be allowed to play the game? Fair warning, all you wheelchair-bound ne'er-do-wells -- you might be next! ***

============= Yo, gitar.... Rubber bands's just gonna dissolve in short order, & not easy to find in just-rite size for the job. Next time you're in a hardware store, take a look in their O-Ring bin. & dirt cheap. Also, thanx for the gesture, 'Gumbo' .... downright 'cauc' of ya! ~8) ~*

I had the same (I think) problems first time I tried to connect a used Legend I bought. Only in my case, it was the drivers for the USB-to-Serial converter cable that I lacked. I contacted the seller about the problem, and she remembered she'd forgotten the CD that came with the cable/converter & promised to send it. I wound up d/l'g the driver from the Belkin (the converter mfr) website, & voila! Only other problem - I had to go into the Setup page > Interface, and change the Serial Data Format from 'NMEA In / NMEA Out' to 'Garmin'. Mind you, a couple of times since, it's tried to say the Legend wasn't connected - and she told me that sometimes it's kind've "funny" about making good connections. Cleaned all the contacts (cable's & Legend's) with a rubber pencil eraser & that seems to've cured the problem. ~*

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Aaaah, grasshopper. The sagacious 'Wizard of the Mouse' has an ancient, tried & true solution for that. See if you can find the manual that came with your mouse, then look up and read the section on "How not to click things you don't want to see". It speaks of efficiencys, & managing one's own life before trying to manage others. You have much to learn, before reaching enlightenment. Now go, and prosper. ~*

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Congratulations d00d....you discovered (accidentally or not) the real reason behind the post. Only, if you'll rethink your formula, "...focus on giving = getting takes care of itself" - it doesn't work until most others practice it. And they don't. Ergo, the message here. ~*

^^^^^^^^^^ Not your own, of course. Don't wanta be providing leads back to your place of business for sure! Rather, those of other guys you wouldn't mind seein' get burned -- those you've collected & from time to time drop at the porn shop, or 'houses of ill repute' -- near crack parlors......arson sites. <G> I'd actually started to add in the opener "the bunches of business cards you can take off the bulletin boards in restaurants, etc." -- but it was too long to type. ~*

^^^^^^^^^^^^ And there's another good idea. Now I know what to do with all my old "cuts" I used to save for playing over water hazards, since I don't play teh "cow pasture pool" (as dad used to call it) anymore. Hmmm....I even have a couple of driving range balls -- they're goin' in! <G> ~*

^^^^^^^^^^ Now that was a good idea. Readin' the logs, I could feel the seediness! <G> ~*

^^^^^^^^^ Correct, that I did. In fact, some of us called 'em the 'Dukey (pron'd 'dookie') Tool'. But when in Rome.... ~*

^^^^^^^^^^^ Errrmmm.....Mr Fish, Suh.....wid all due respeck, Suh, suggest you "go by" the article again yo'self, & take another look....maybe this time with da readin' glasses? It's "faIl", vs "faLl". First one goes 'sputter' & gets quiet....second goes "boom" & makes fireworks. "Fail IN orbit..." is a clue. (I'm an astronomer; 50+ years....know a teensy bit about them.) Clear'ns! ~Star*Hopper StarHub Observatory NeuseWay Planetarium ~Retired

I'm in the game also....been doing astronomy nearly 50 years. As someone (Mad?) mentioned, the GPS feature on modern scopes is basically used to set observing point & align the celestial sphere for the scope's (or handheld's) GoTo system initialization....& more or less becomes moot until your next session, or scope relocation. I don't see much other overlap of the two 'sports' either -- your area limiting magnitude maps available thru local CSC's, combined with Google mapping makes locating dark sky sites fairly easy; I guess you could follow your GPSr to 'em to save printing a map, if you'd rather. (A sheet of paper is cheaper than batteries though.) I have an 8" SCT I connect to a laptop, running TheSKY6, StarryNight Pro, or (my favorite) SkyTools, either or all of which accurately steer my GoTo to any of the millions of objects in their collective databases, or any sky coordinate possible, if they're not. I point the U2K to any 2 stars minimum 20° apart, punch 'Align', & I'm good to go -- what do I need with a Tupperware finder?? But who knows - maybe this ingenious bunch will find a new use. Clear skies! ~S*H

I'm still a noob, coming up on 40 finds - and every one has been micro & smaller, ie, log only. Come to think of it, 4 have had soaking wet & tattered globs, one of them muggled & replaced with a wet piece of cigarette package not 15' from where I saw a wino urinating in public. (Yeah, put on the vinyl gloves before going for that one! *LOL*) I've put out 3 caches, the first two with 'micro-swag'; & they've both had contents pirated & nary a mention in the 20-some logs from finders - my ladyfriend has had a couple of nice geocoins stolen & 5 Travel Bugs disappeared....kinda put me off the effort (& expense) so my 3rd was log only. I've got 3 ammo cans I bought, cleaned up & re-painted with military camo paint -- real nice, with 'Official' decals & all; look brand new & quite pleased with the result. I was gonna stock with some pretty nice swag I've bought for the purpose; flashlights, GPSr batteries, pens, kid toys, lanyards, compasses, spare log packets, ziplocks, stickers....yada yada yada. I've been saving them while I look for some really good (& compliant) places to put them, to make them tough finds, but with some nice contents to make them worth the hunt once found. But perhaps needless to say my experience thus far has kinda put me off the idea. So I've been also looking for some new ideas....and the "Bad swag..what do YOU do?" thread has just given me one. Think I'm gonna build a new cache, & call it, "Teh Bad Swag Bag". Stock it with some real crap, like the stuff people always have around, but don't really want. All "legal" of course. Broken can opener. Pair of sunglasses with one lens missing. Stuff you find at yard sales for 5¢, that are still there at the end of the sale. A sock. Another, completely different color. (The washer gnomes have left me plenty of those over the years.) A recipe from a cookbook - first page only. An 8-track tape. Might even make the log a sheet of regular paper in a waterproof heavy-duty ziplock freezer bag -- full of water of course. Maybe another, labeled "Refreshing ice cubes for your beverage." Any other ideas for "Teh Bad Swag Bag"? Remember, keep it "legal"! ~*

Ummm....Mr Fish, suh? If rivers & lakes are affectin' your signal, you're looking too deep! He's talking about signals being blocked, bounced & bent as they come down thru the sky - not up off the ground. And your conclusions about "older satellites are in orbital decay of the final stage" being the explanation for "the trouble"......well.......no. Satellites are always "falling" (the ones in orbit, anyway)....and frequently being boosted back into position. And they're high enough (roughly 12,500 miles - by comparison the ISS orbits at roughly 250 miles altitude) to where their gravitational 'slipping' is far from sufficient to lower their signal -- that only happens when they get far enough away to be over your horizon from your viewpoint. And they'd still be sending the same, steady signal to those within line-of-sight. Plus, they are positioned such that as one or more leaves view, others are coming into view. It only takes 3 to triangulate your position - and most civilian receivers I'm aware of will receive up to 12 if they're available (ie, in clear view). Clear skies! ~S*H

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I still have one on my keyring (aka 'Guy's Charm Bracelet' *LOL*) I carried in Nam with FMAW (Marines) based in Da Nang as part of Operation Shu-Fly; '64-65. Not only do I think they're good swag - it's especially befitting given the outdoors nature of most participants - in fact I bought a dozen I found at an area Mil-Surplus store not long ago, with the very intention of making them a regular part of my stashes, which I've done in the 3 I've planted so far. (Yeah...a noob.) But to heck with packing instructions! Those "younger non-military people" and the many other 'unwashed' can find their own way, if they're so inclined -- I think bare bones adds to its mystique. *LOL* Such an historical item, the significance it indicates, and like Bob says, I truly enjoy the unusual magic of things that do their job so well, so unfailingly, just as they were designed to -- almost a lost science these days. Anyway, Bob if you'll PM me your snail addy, for the job you did I'd be honored to send you one of these I have, one vet to another, if you'd care to have it. I might even have one for Mr. Greenjeans. ~*

I'll resist my first temptation to offer the tip that, "If you have it set to 'Operate with GPS off' option, that can really play hob with readings!!" But seriously, I'm glad to hear someone else mention this, 'cuz I've had some unusually weird readings the last 3-4 days too! I've been scouting cache sites, and recording coordinates - and going back the following day to confirm, & getting considerably different readings anywhere from 30-70' off from previous 'marks'. So much so, I've held off registering 4 new caches until I can get consistant numbers - all of which I wanted to have out by this Easter weekend. (And yes - one of them a decorated, egg-shaped container! Bummer.) One notably strange reading I intended to ask about anyway, which is what led me to this thread. Initial mark made with 9' accuracy.....walked away 4 different directions & returned.....all dead on the money, so didn't even do my usual 5th check. (This last weekend.) On confirming yesterday, I's getting between 9 & 13' accuracy when I was a distance away from the GZ - but the closer I got, the farther the accuracy drifted....and we're talking 60-70-80'! Same thing happened today. The only interfering object was a 1-story building 50' away, & it to my north - clear open ground all around otherwise. Best accuracy I could get was 23'....and soon's I took a couple steps toward GZ the accuracy would start climbing quickly. What was especially confusing was - I was picking up full signals from 8 of the 12 satellites on the display, and every one with the li'l 'D' indicating WAAS was adjusting. All I know to ask is - WTH??!!?? Any ideas? ~*

Hi all; I've ran a couple forum searches - got so many hits it's difficult to find the desired info, so let me ask straight out: Are all the capabilities that ClayJar's 'Watcher' program provides, covered in GSAK? Or is it a valuable addition to have along with GSAK? Thanx in advance, ~S*H

Thanx Wayne. Re sharing - well, I haven't, (not sure how to in here), but that shouldn't be necessary cuz it's so easy to set up in Excel yourself. Basically, just create one column - the trickiest part is getting it to the correct width to fit inside your chosen container, & best I can recommend is trial-&-error. Just print a few rows (to save both ink & paper while testing) trying a range of (close, but different) column widths, & measure them after printing or actually snip them apart & see how well they fit the actual container. Once you get it right, copy that column & paste as many columns as will print on a sheet with 0 margins on Page Setup....make some reference notes just off the edge (like in my sample image), save it & good to go. You can copy one of the columns, open a new worksheet, paste it & start experimenting with widths again for another size container, save that one, etc., until you've built your own set. ***

There's so many logsheets available on teh intarwebs it's kinda nertz! And so many different versions - I must've downloaded 2-3 dozen in everything from PDF's to RTF's. Then one day I came across one I thought was a great idea....it was a whole set in one Excel file! PDF's are hard to customize without the extra Adobe software....and I absolutely LOATHE trying to work in Word. But Excel is a breeze to manipulate, customize to your heart's desire, copy columns & paste to get several per sheet, any width & spacing you want, to fit any container, with cell framing so you can include lines for sigs, front AND back......and all saveable as a set of templates for future use - just open & click 'Print'! And best of all - now instead of 30-some various files to search thru, it's all reduced to one convenient digital 'booklet'! Here's my template for a pill fob micro that prints 1.6" wide. For the back, the cachename, 'FTF' spaces etc. are removed -- just the 'Date/Name' header & lines for sigs. *^*

Snip: "..."Sign the log - get a smiley" is the way I play the game. Usually, but not always, I cache with another. One of us finds it. That means that the other does not. We both sign the log. If I cache with my brother or sister, one of us finds it. We all sign. I've met quite a number of people on the hunt. If I have the cache in hand, I will usually ask "want me to hide it again so you can find it?" No one has ever said "Yes". When none of us has found it, we all search as a team. ..." /Snip There is a caching concept that covers this point - and I like it. I think it really adds to the fun and intent of the game, by retaining the element of 'discovery' for all in the party involved. Borrowing from the 'Lexicon': Huckle-Buckle-Beanstalk – A method of group caching, which takes its name from a classic children's game. When a member of the group spots the cache, they walk elsewhere (to not give away the cache's location), then call out, “huckle-buckle-beanstalk!” (or whatever word or phrase the group has decided on). This continues until everyone in the group has either spotted the cache, or given up, after which the cache is retrieved and logged. Compare this to the Three Musketeers method. (& for the reference:) Three Musketeers – A method of group cache hunting, which takes its name from the Musketeer motto, “All for one and one for all.” Unlike the Huckle-Buckle-Beanstalk method, as soon as one person in the group finds the cache, the hunt is over, and all members of the group log their find. Unfortunately (and this is strictly my opinion), the 'HBB' concept - and the fun it keeps in the game - seems to be either ignored or overlooked by the vast majority, for which it has become "all about the numbers". And finally, I passed over this the first time w/o comment, but... "I am sorry, though, that as a new cacher and placer of caches you are so upset....that's no fun." Probably an innocuous comment, but just for the record, .... WHAT?!?!? I have no earthly idea where nor how you derived that I am or was, "so upset"!! Perhaps you should re-read the opening post - as I said, I'm ONLY inquiring about this in order to learn the proper way to play the game. 'Learning the ropes', just as the topic title says....& not "upset". And on that point - I'm learning pretty quickly. I've been witness to at least 4 incidents since posting this -: } A geocoin removed without its being logged as being taken, nor re-dropped -- in effect, STOLEN! } An entire, full, large ammo-can cache EMPTIED of its swag (all new merchandise) - & not a single item mentioned in any log. And trust me, NO one would ever go to this place unless they were geocachers looking for it, so it was not muggled -- it was MUGGED. } A whole new 15-cache series put out recently, where every one was FTF'd by one player....and "coincidentally" the FTF'r was the cacher's teammate & GC'g partner. (Then the guy was stupid enough to tell on himself in his loggings.) } A cache I went out early and tried to FTF - I arrived at the site in the rain and sat there a good 10 minutes acquiring satellite signal & analyzing likely GZs from the readout before starting for it. Went straight to the most likely point (40-yard walk) thru mud....opened the container, found a perfectly dry log sheet (raining, remember?) FTF'd 4 MINUTES prior to the present time (I'd been there 10+ minutes, remember?) and not a single person in sight, & no footprints nor tireprints in the surrounding field of 2-3" deep mud, other than my own. By the way - the FTF'r was the same "series" FTFr mentioned above. Also cached by his buddy. So yes, I'm learning. For some, obviously, it's "ANYTHING GOES!" And what astounds me is - for the 'number seekers'....all they go thru, the lengths to which they'll go....& all it gets them is a number beside a 'handle', on some mundane web page, that 99% of the world will never ever see. Amazing. ***

It's a good thing there wasn't a pocket knife, lighter or some other banned article in the cache. That story might have ended quite a bit differently! See? Rules. Usually there is a purpose for them....I'm inclined to not only question some rules, but their reason for being. I feel that really knowing the rules, and well, lets you play a better game. As for some of the other comments....no, not going to delete or even comment on this incident in the logs. This example was just that - an example - and my wanting to understand the protocol in certain situations. I know that some folks who've never won a trophy, have resorted to going to a trophy shop & buying one. If that's what it takes for them to feel better about themselves - so be it! The way I'm made, everytime I would see or think about it in the future, I'd be reminded I am a loser. That make sense? Of course, some folks have no problem going out & robbing a bank or convenience store....without a moment's remorse. How I feel about it would't affect them one whit. Or stop them. Ergo, blogging it? Fail. Thanx again for the input. I appreciate the guidance. Clear skies! ~Star*Hopper

Hi again, Muchly appreciate all the candid replies. The concensus seems to be that it's pretty much an open affair - a find is a find, no matter how you come about it. Kinda like love and war then? At any rate, as someone said, it's just a game. (To which I usually think, but most games do have rules of play, right? I just want to know what they are.) But hmmmmm. "Of course, you can continue to prefer to hunt alone and take solo credit for your own finds, too. There is also nothing at all wrong in doing that either." Are you sure about that? Isn't that playin' pretty fast & loose with the rules?? I'm mighty glad to know I slid in under that stricture by the skin o' my teeth, playing the game in its purest form! *LOL* J/K of course!! Please don't anybody get me wrong - as I stated in the premise, I was really just wanting to understand the difference in what's considered right and wrong, if there is a line of distincton. I'm sure I will be participating with someone at some time, and would rather not be getting "the skunkeye" due my own ignorance. And also as stated, am not one to force my beliefs on anyone else, nor their game. Heck, when golfing alone, I have been known to move my ball a bit with my foot, to improve my lie! (*sob*....the shame!) <G> Now, to further amuse you, I purposely withheld one bit of information, in anticipation of the sure-to-come comments regarding the spread of the sport - exposing it to potential newcomers. You see, I don't think we can look to gain any new members thru this particular incident. Not for a while, at least. That particular "grounds maintenance crew"? Prison inmates. And for your dessert -- the GCr who got their help? Unbeknownst to them....he's a cop! Clear skies! ~Star*Hopper

Hi all, I don't want this to sound like a complaint directed at anyone, but a situation arose yesterday that gave rise to my inquiry. I am a noob to the sport, and as such am trying to learn the finer points of the 'ethics' involved. I have placed a single cache thus far, and did so after much planning, and with considerable thought and consideration toward making it a quality cache, with a reason for bringing people there, and providing a decent challenge of a hunt without making it an overly arduous task. Now, I realize that organizing hunts involving four, six or even eight or more geocachers is (apparently) considered acceptable behaviour. I myself hunt alone - if I find it, I want the pride of finding it, and don't want the experience diluted. But that's me, and I wouldn't try to force my beliefs onto others. But bottom line, I just wouldn't feel entirely comfortable taking credit for a find, when someone else actually found it for me. My situation is this. Two geocachers working together arrived at my cache, only to find a "civilian" work party there performing grounds maintenance. Now as I understand it, much of the game lies in NOT revealing yourself & your intention to "muggles". Listings even go so far as to state when & where "stealth" is a factor - and countless log reports mention having to leave & return later, because of muggle presence. Not only did these guys "decide, since it was late, to press ahead with the search" they actually engaged the help of the muggles in their search - and sure enough, one of THEM found it! So my question is - should this be an allowable 'find'? Both of the GCrs had great numbers of finds, and I feel the odds are that with more searching, they might have found it. But then again, perhaps they would not have! I'll say here that I am glad my cache was found - after all, I put it out there to BE found. And they were not first - it had been found a couple times already. But should a Geocacher take (or get) credit for a find he did NOT in fact find on his own, but rather, was actually found by an "outsider"? So, what is the concensus as to a verdict -- where does this fall in the order of things? And if "wrong", what would you suggest be done about it? Thanx for your patience & enlightenment, ~Star*Hopper

While reading the below linked article, I wondered what if any changes would come to GPS as a result of Block III deployment, and more specifically, if it would affect and/or obsolete gear now in our hands. I'm shopping for a GPS unit, & long story short, don't want to get stuck with another BetaMax! Anyone 'up' on the technology, & can say what the future holds? TIA! +++ Related article: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.sp....html?pid=24600 ***